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Age of Empires III Heaven » Forums » General Discussions » Hills and walls
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Topic Subject:Hills and walls
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Munch0r
Skirmisher
posted 04-27-05 11:03 AM EDT (US)         
i read somewhere in the forums that units on top of a hill will gain some sort of advantage

will units behind a hill able to see over hills, walls and trees like in previous aoe games because the only thing hills did in aok :tc was prevent you build on them.

will archers loose accuracy firing over walls?

[This message has been edited by Munch0r (edited 04-27-2005 @ 12:15 PM).]

AuthorReplies:
Thebean
Skirmisher
posted 04-27-05 11:09 AM EDT (US)     1 / 34       

Quote:

will units behind a hill able to see over walls and hills like in previous aoe games

This is interesting. In AOM, the hills were never steep enough in a short space. If a unit had an LOS of 20, you could bet that the enemy was in eyeshot. However, the impressive overhanging cliffs in the AO3 screenshots pose a problem. What if two units are 5 squares away, yet can't see each other.

I think this could be another reason why ES has said that the player with the advantage economically and physically can suffer big shock losses. You could 'hide' your units in the lee of a hill, then by the time the enemy has gone all the way round the gorge, you've gone.

Not sure if this is what you meant, but it brought up a good point.


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[This message has been edited by Thebean (edited 04-27-2005 @ 11:10 AM).]

Mokon
Skirmisher
posted 04-27-05 11:16 AM EDT (US)     2 / 34       

Quote:

will units behind a hill able to see over walls and hills like in previous aoe games because the only thing hills did in aok :tc was prevent you build on them.

No, AOK and i beleive AOM as well had attack bonuses on hills, just very small

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  • Munch0r
    Skirmisher
    posted 04-27-05 11:20 AM EDT (US)     3 / 34       
    Really? i have played aok for 3 + years and i never knew that
    could some1 else verify this?
    Thebean
    Skirmisher
    posted 04-27-05 11:25 AM EDT (US)     4 / 34       
    AOM DEFINATELY had a small bonus if archers were on a hill. It was a hotly contested point at AOMH until someone had the idea of testing in the editor, and found they do.

    Not sure about the rest of the 'Age' series, but I think they do.


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    jjgy
    Skirmisher
    posted 04-27-05 12:07 PM EDT (US)     5 / 34       
    I have only been playing AoK for about six months, but i think units do have an advantage on hills. I was playing one of my friends over lan, and and we had to skirmies battling eachother, mine was on a hill, his was about 4 level units below it. We both had no blacksmith upgrades, i belive he was tuetons and i was byzantines. (i don't think these people have bonuses for thier archers, i'm pretty sure i would know if they did) My skirmie won by a couple hit points although his had first attack. (he was a little pissed cuz he thot his skirmie was invincible but he didn't stay angry over the loss of one skirmie long cuz i completely decimated his army with a large group of archers posted on a cliff)

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    Midgard Eagle
    Skirmisher
    posted 04-27-05 12:20 PM EDT (US)     6 / 34       
    AoK's bonuses for hill and cliff units were way too tiny. I didn't even know about them until I went on-line.

    There should be many terrain effects, like realistic line of sight (realistic meaning intuitive, meaning it'd not make the game harder) and bonuses related to woods, hills, etc.


    Woad Creations veteran, WiC junkie
    Cataphract887
    Skirmisher
    posted 04-27-05 12:50 PM EDT (US)     7 / 34       
    aok=25%+ attack on hill and aoe was something like a 33% chance to do triple damage

    i hope es is putting real los in


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    Indum
    Banned
    posted 04-27-05 12:51 PM EDT (US)     8 / 34       
    Cavalry going down a hill will move faster and fight better than cavalry going down a hill perhaps?

    As for los, it would be cool if it was like in mechcommander 2, where units had a limited field of sight but could be further blocked by walls and forests (Although you started off with full knowledege of the terrain and structures.)

    [This message has been edited by Indum (edited 04-27-2005 @ 12:55 PM).]

    Mokon
    Skirmisher
    posted 04-27-05 01:20 PM EDT (US)     9 / 34       

    Quote:

    Cavalry going down a hill will move faster and fight better than cavalry going down a hill perhaps?

    First u mean up right.... but i dont like that idea... maybe when going up hill they go slower but not faster going down.... a horse can really get hurt charging down a hill at full speed

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  • ajaxthegreater
    Skirmisher
    posted 04-27-05 02:51 PM EDT (US)     10 / 34       
    I don't think there should be attack bonuses for variable elevations. It would make the game too complex, unless they only gave small bonuses like + 1 range and +1 LOS.

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    Thebean
    Skirmisher
    posted 04-27-05 02:54 PM EDT (US)     11 / 34       

    Quote:

    I don't think there should be attack bonuses for variable elevations. It would make the game too complex

    But it wouldn't. ES have already used it and you didn't even notice.


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    Mokon
    Skirmisher
    posted 04-27-05 03:00 PM EDT (US)     12 / 34       
    This is an age of game... complexity is what it is about.... and really it wont start hurting u if u dont owrry about it until u get to the expert games

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  • Midgard Eagle
    Skirmisher
    posted 04-27-05 03:13 PM EDT (US)     13 / 34       

    Quote:

    I don't think there should be attack bonuses for variable elevations. It would make the game too complex, unless they only gave small bonuses like + 1 range and +1 LOS.


    Nope, not at all. Here's the deal: It's intuitive. I mean, it's not like tanks in FPS games being weaker in the rear, or like RTS games where archers aren't good against cavalry. You don't need to read the manual, download strategy guides from fellow players, or play the tutorial to understand realistic line of sight and realistic altitude advantages - you just need to know the game uses it!

    For example, take a unit standing in a field. Some distance ahead of him is a large crater He can't see the bottom of the hole, just the sides from where he stands. So realistically, whoever or whatever is hiding down in the hole is hidden from his view, right? It's nothing but realism.

    For another example: Would you be able to see whoever was lying in wait behind these trees?
    [PNG, (234.17 KB)]

    Or in this tall grass?

    Likewise, if LOS in the game was realistic, what'd be "too complicated" about units hiding behind trees? It's simple, basic realism, something we've been around since the age of 0: The fact that we can't see trough the ground, trough cliffs, trough walls, or trough trees.

    The same way, of course you run slower if you run up-hill. Of course you can shoot an arrow longer from atop a cliff or hill than from ground level. Simple, basic realism.

    Age of Empires III won't be an "arcade" game combat-wise, what with flanking and everything. So if you don't like terrain and objects affecting your army, AoE III might not be for you.


    Woad Creations veteran, WiC junkie

    [This message has been edited by Midgard Eagle (edited 04-27-2005 @ 03:14 PM).]

    rampagingturtle8
    Skirmisher
    posted 04-27-05 07:57 PM EDT (US)     14 / 34       
    I hate how cavalry in AoM has almost zero Line of Sight, unless you choose Poseidon, and they have a bit more.

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    Midgard Eagle
    Skirmisher
    posted 04-28-05 07:18 AM EDT (US)     15 / 34       
    Especially considering that they sit atop horses, which should increase their line of sight. Not to mention that seeing that cavalry is popularly used for recon, they should have a long line of sight (like the Light Cavalry in Age of Kings).

    Woad Creations veteran, WiC junkie
    Mokon
    Skirmisher
    posted 04-28-05 09:24 AM EDT (US)     16 / 34       
    Well they truely would have been a lot more powerful in aom if they had more LOS, thats why they kepted it low.....

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  • Darth_Vader1_4
    Skirmisher
    posted 04-28-05 12:28 PM EDT (US)     17 / 34       
    I played AOK:TC for 6 years and I didn't know there was a hill bonus till 2 years ago.
    It is quite small though so say 30 skirms on a hill could beat 40 skirms downhill. But yes very small but the bonnus added 25% damage so it depends also on what unit you where using. A Elite War Elephant would get more than a Skirm and Trebs would get 50 MORE ATTACK!!!

    Also I played Codename Panzers: Phase One and there if you had 2 units and a wall betwen them you couldn't see the unit on the other side but you could HEAR IT! This would be a very very cool thing to add to AOE III it would make siege of towns and the campaigns more strategical.

    It would be suicide to just send all your 40 Musketiers right into a town without properly scouting it.

    Also it would be cool if you could garrison walls. To have units up walls would be super!

    Midgard Eagle
    Skirmisher
    posted 04-28-05 02:55 PM EDT (US)     18 / 34       

    Quote:

    Also I played Codename Panzers: Phase One and there if you had 2 units and a wall betwen them you couldn't see the unit on the other side but you could HEAR IT! This would be a very very cool thing to add to AOE III it would make siege of towns and the campaigns more strategical.


    That is an awesome feature. See my topic on detection and intelligence in my signature. I'm definetly getting Code Name Panzers Phase One as I loved both Sudden Strike I and II.

    It reminds me of an old MMOFPS (yes, FPS, not RPG) game called World War II On-line that I played the demo version of. It is like a hyper-advanced version of BF 1942, and it actually lets you turn your engine on and off. As a tanker or driver, you are highly encouraged to turn your loud-mouth engine off if you were going to be stationary for more than a few seconds, as the enemy would hear you otherwise.

    I think sound (and smell, in the case of dogs) is a very over-looked feature in FPS and RTS games. It could add a lot if, say, tired soldiers gave their position away by breathing heavily, or if you could "see" gallopping horses beyond your line of sight from hearing the beating of their hooves, or a gun fight beyond your LOS due to your troops hearing the guns go off and the screams of the fighting and dying. Whenever something's heard, show a token in the fog-of-war that's, say, a little picture of a horse in a box or something with the caption "Cavalry". Or a picture of two swords and the caption "Fighting". Not to mention that if sound was 3D, you could move your camera nearer the source and you'd hear the hooves or the fighting. Then you'd be sure not to miss it.

    Quote:

    Also it would be cool if you could garrison walls. To have units up walls would be super!


    You apparently can put infantry on walls. I saw this screen shot of a fortress and it had both cannons and riflemen atop a wall.

    Oh well, we're getting far off-topic here.

    Quote:

    It is quite small though so say 30 skirms on a hill could beat 40 skirms downhill. But yes very small but the bonnus added 25% damage so it depends also on what unit you where using. A Elite War Elephant would get more than a Skirm and Trebs would get 50 MORE ATTACK!!!


    I don't know about attack for trebuchets, but an elephant charging downhill would definetly have more potential for butt-kicking than one charging over flat land or uphill.

    Range increments would be nice, though.

    And archers losing accuracy firing over walls is a great idea.


    Woad Creations veteran, WiC junkie

    [This message has been edited by Midgard Eagle (edited 04-28-2005 @ 02:57 PM).]

    tw0 str0ke
    Skirmisher
    posted 04-29-05 00:48 AM EDT (US)     19 / 34       
    There is no hill advantage in AOK:TC.
    The only reason the archers seem better is because hills slow the advancing units so the archers can pop em off before they get to them. I guess thats a advantage but its not a bonus in attack.

    Thanks
    tw0str0ke


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    Red Storm
    Skirmisher
    posted 04-29-05 00:59 AM EDT (US)     20 / 34       
    So much for walls in AoE3 being more like AoM and less like AoK.

    Looking good, ES.

    yop
    Skirmisher
    posted 04-29-05 01:41 AM EDT (US)     21 / 34       

    Quote:

    There is no hill advantage in AOK:TC.
    The only reason the archers seem better is because hills slow the advancing units so the archers can pop em off before they get to them. I guess thats a advantage but its not a bonus in attack.

    This is wrong. There is a 25% bonus/malus for elevation. Please do not state something as a fact when you are not sure if it is actually a fact.

    See there:
    http://www.rtscentral.com/readPosting.asp?PostingId=815642

    And I think elevation is a must for Age3 as it was for Age2. It can add so much strategy to a fight, like when two armies are circling around the top of a hill, keeping just at the edge of the range of their weapons, and trying to get the best spot for when the clash will occur.

    Sunshine
    Banned
    posted 04-29-05 02:42 AM EDT (US)     22 / 34       
    It made me wonder: Due to the different shapes of the walls around the forts, is it going to be possible to build the walls yourself? Does that mean walls are still in? Or, are there already pre-produced templates of the forts that you can use?

    [This message has been edited by Angel Sunny (edited 04-29-2005 @ 03:01 AM).]

    xX BioHazard Xx
    Skirmisher
    posted 04-29-05 02:54 AM EDT (US)     23 / 34       
    ^^^
    At least that question is answered in the new article now, yes walls can be custom built.

    I would like los to be realistic so that a cliff would prevent you from seeing the other unit on the bottom of the cliff if you're on top. I would also like hiding in forests for sneak attacks. Here's a question that has been bothering me, in AoK it was okay for an archer to shoot over a wall or cliff because it goes over, but what about musketeers? They cannot shoot over a wall to hit stuff on the other side and they cannot shoot through the cliff to hit a unit on the other side of it.


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    Midala87
    Skirmisher
    posted 04-29-05 06:18 AM EDT (US)     24 / 34       

    Quote:

    I would like los to be realistic so that a cliff would prevent you from seeing the other unit on the bottom of the cliff if you're on top.

    Is this the right scenario?:

    YOUR archer on top of a cliff.
    ENEMY archer at base of cliff (bottom).
    YOUR archer cannot hit the enemy below.
    ENEMY archer can hit YOUR archer (insufficient data).

    If that scenario is right then it makes no sense. As long as the enemy unit is not behind any objects you should still be able to target that unit. HOWEVER if a cliff is curved like a "C" then you would not be able to target.

    Quote:

    I would also like hiding in forests for sneak attacks.

    I would too. But what is considered as a sneak attack? Once you attack you are no longer sneaking.

    Quote:

    Here's a question that has been bothering me, in AoK it was okay for an archer to shoot over a wall or cliff because it goes over, but what about musketeers? They cannot shoot over a wall to hit stuff on the other side and they cannot shoot through the cliff to hit a unit on the other side of it.

    You just answered your own question.

    Midgard Eagle
    Skirmisher
    posted 04-29-05 07:04 AM EDT (US)     25 / 34       
    Anyone remember how troops in Galactic Conquest could fire their blasters over walls? That led to a good deal of confused chatter on the message boards.

    Woad Creations veteran, WiC junkie
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