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Topic Subject:Elephants
Midala87
Skirmisher
posted 04-28-05 11:09 PM EDT (US)         
EDIT:
NEW: Added more history on elephants from Civilization III, third replies down from this one.
NEW: Got rid of useless text and kept reply as a history on elephants reply (third reply down).
NEW: Forgot to suggest elephant as cheat unit. Now added.

Ok I know elephants were not in the "new world" but I would still like to see elephants.

In AoE, AoK and AoM we all had elephants. Both huntable and controllable. So why not in AoE3?

Sure elephants may have not been brought over to the Americas, but is it possible that they could have been?

Elephants probably will not be a huntable but they could be a unit that your home city gives you (IF home cities gives you unique untrainable units), a unit only available in the scenario editor and/or a cheat unit.

What are your opinions on if elephants should be in AoE3?
(I apologize if this topic is stupid and worthless)

[This message has been edited by Midala87 (edited 04-29-2005 @ 06:33 AM).]

AuthorReplies:
Mokon
Skirmisher
posted 04-28-05 11:12 PM EDT (US)     1 / 26       
Make it a cheat unit.... and use aok graphics, that would be funny

but in real gaemply i would say no


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  • Blitzer_231
    Skirmisher
    posted 04-28-05 11:19 PM EDT (US)     2 / 26       
    If it were it would have to be a cheat (or scenario editor only) considering that none of the European civs had anything to do with Elephants.

    Edit- Oh wait, looking at the latest info from Gamespy:

    Quote:

    Although Ensemble likes to give their games an authentic historical 'feel,' they never constrain themselves just to the facts. For this reason, players can play "what if?" scenarios, playing out the results of aggressive Russian colonization in the New World or the results if the Ottoman Empire had decided to focus its considerable might on colonizing the other hemisphere. Meanwhile, a sweeping single-player campaign will follow the lives three generations of a particular family and its adventures in the Americas. (We saw little of the single-player campaign during this visit, save for a couple of in-engine cutscenes notable because the graphics were incredible even as the camera zoomed in to individual characters' faces).

    Doubt Ottomans used Elpehants though...


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    [This message has been edited by Blitzer_231 (edited 04-28-2005 @ 11:29 PM).]

    Thanatos
    Skirmisher
    (id: deathmaster666)
    posted 04-28-05 11:57 PM EDT (US)     3 / 26       
    Maybe in an x-pac if it includes asian civs somehow. Indians used elephant mounted musketeers and elephant mounted mobile cannon.

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    Midala87
    Skirmisher
    posted 04-29-05 00:46 AM EDT (US)     4 / 26       
    NEW: Added more history on elephants from Civilization III.
    NEW: Got rid of useless text and kept reply as a "history on elephants".


    History on Elephants:

    Age of Empires

    War Elephant:

    Quote:

    Elephants were tamed in antiquity but never domesticated. They were most useful as beasts of burden, but were employed in battle by several cultures, including the Phoenicians, Persians, and Indians. Elephants were much more intimidating than horses and much tougher as well. In addition, horses avoided elephants, making elephants, in theory, a great weapon against enemy cavalry. In practice, unfortunately, elephants rarely proved useful. They were difficult to acquire, train, and maintain. Hannibal attempted to take elephants across the Alps to attack Rome, but only one survived. No account of Alexander the Great's battles makes any mention of Persian elephants being effective. Elephants were difficult to control in battle and were likely to charge in any direction but the one desired, especially after being wounded. They were apparently more dangerous to friend than foe, being already nearer to friends and most likely to charge away from perceived danger through the friendly army arrayed around them.

    Elephant Archer:

    Quote:

    Attempting to use elephants in combat posed a number of problems, including the central one of how the elephant would fight and cause casualties. One answer was to place a box on the elephant’s back from which archers could shoot. The archers were protected by the box and could fire down into the melee below. That worked only as long as the elephant remained standing and within range of the enemy. In the years following the death of Alexander the Great, many western kings adorned their armies with elephants but they were rarely effective. Armies of ancient India used elephants more successfully for many centuries.


    Age of Empires II: The Age of Kings

    War Elephant & Elite War Elephant:

    Quote:

    The last civilization in the Middle East to employ war elephants was Persia who got their elephants from India The war elephant was a powerful complement to an army, especially against troops with no experience against them. They were very difficult to kill, but remained difficult to control also. If they could be directed into an enemy formation, the enemy troops almost always fell back.

    Civilization III

    War Elephant

    Quote:

    In many ways, Elephants were the tanks of the ancient era: massive, hard to kill, and incredibly dangerous. One of the most famous showdowns involving elephants took place in 326 B.C. when Alexander the Great squared off with India's Porus, a powerful rajah who commanded an army with as many as 200 elephants. Porus' mighty elephants frightened Alexander's horses and put the fear of God into his infantry, but Alexander had a plan. Alexander's strategy was to attack the mahouts (elephant drivers) and then encircle and assault the elephants' underbellies with spears and whatever else they had. The panicked elephants, however, were not amused, and responded by trampling and goring whatever was in their paths. Luckily for Alexander, the confused beasts trampled over as many (or more) Indian troops as Alexander's. In the end, Porus' forces were defeated, but Alexander's troops were severely traumatized by the memory of the thunderous beasts..

    Now how strong should elephants be if they are a cheat unit?

    [This message has been edited by Midala87 (edited 04-29-2005 @ 06:40 AM).]

    Hal4
    Skirmisher
    posted 04-29-05 01:46 AM EDT (US)     5 / 26       
    Wow, nice timing with this thread. I'm hoping that with today's confirmation of Ottomans as a civ, they'll have elephants.

    Imagine a cannon hitting an elephant!


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    Mythos_Ruler
    Skirmisher
    posted 04-29-05 05:39 AM EDT (US)     6 / 26       
    SilentScreams
    Skirmisher
    posted 04-29-05 05:42 AM EDT (US)     7 / 26       
    I don't think the Ottomans used elephants as war animals (the reason being that after the invention of cannon they could be "neutralized" with one shot ) so I doubt they'll be in this game. Then again, ES might stretch history another bit...

    All Hail Giant Squid World Domination
    Mythos_Ruler
    Skirmisher
    posted 04-29-05 02:38 PM EDT (US)     8 / 26       
    I say no to elephants in-game. That's one stretch I think ES should not make. An editor unit: Yes. A cheat unit: Yes.
    Ikki
    Skirmisher
    posted 04-29-05 02:43 PM EDT (US)     9 / 26       
    but camels?

    certaily ottos should have those..


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    Mokon
    Skirmisher
    posted 04-29-05 03:17 PM EDT (US)     10 / 26       
    Eles where not used during this time for war
    Cams where... but i doubt cams will be in this game cause they werent used in NA as far as i know

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  • SandyMan
    VIP
    (id: ES_Sandyman)
    posted 04-29-05 04:01 PM EDT (US)     11 / 26       
    Actually, elephants WERE used during this time period for war. The Moguls, Thai, Burmese, and Vietnamese all used them. I believe that elephants were in the Thai military up into the late 19th century.
    Feroz
    Skirmisher
    posted 04-29-05 04:41 PM EDT (US)     12 / 26       
    I wouldn't mind elephants, so long as they aren't "too" powerful. But definitely a good idea for cheat units and scenario editor. Loving the idea of the AOK elephant being included as well for an extra lol.

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    barley_n_oats
    Skirmisher
    posted 04-29-05 04:49 PM EDT (US)     13 / 26       
    I am completely for war elephants to be in the game. Why? Simply because it's been in EVERY single age game, from Age of Empires I to Age of Mythology.

    It brings back nostalgic memories of the first time I created one in AOE.

    REASONS WHY ELEPHANTS SHOULD BE IN:
    -it's in every Age game.
    -improved graphical effects with elephant = :-)
    -cannons and elephants don't mix.
    -Ottomans give perfect excuse to use them.


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    SilentScreams
    Skirmisher
    posted 04-29-05 04:51 PM EDT (US)     14 / 26       
    ^ agreed with first reason

    Also, think how cool Eles would look with the new Havok physics - throwing around soldiers and stuff


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    Wu Su Zheng
    Banned
    posted 04-29-05 05:02 PM EDT (US)     15 / 26       
    Although it's not as if they were ever used for combat, there were elephants somewhere around the coast of South America after they became extinct in the mainland.

    Didn't last long though.

    SilentScreams
    Skirmisher
    posted 04-29-05 05:03 PM EDT (US)     16 / 26       
    Wu Su Zheng, I'm interested. Can you give more information on that, or a source?

    All Hail Giant Squid World Domination
    SilentScreams
    Skirmisher
    posted 04-29-05 05:06 PM EDT (US)     17 / 26       
    The closest connection between the Ottomans and War Elephants I could find so far (source: Wikipedia):

    "It was the use of elephants, again by an Indian Sultanate, that almost put an halt to Timur's conquests. In 1398 Timur's army faced more than one hundred Indian elephants in battle and almost lost by pure fear of his troops. Historical accounts say that the Turks won due to an ingenious strategy: Timur set flaming straw on the back of his camels before the charge. The smoke made the camels run forward and scared the elephants, who crushed their own troops in an attempt to retreat. Another account of the campaign (that of Ahmed ibn Arabshah) reports that Timur used oversized caltrops to halt the elephant charge. Later, the Turkic leader used the animals against the Ottoman Empire.


    All Hail Giant Squid World Domination
    Ikki
    Skirmisher
    posted 04-29-05 05:14 PM EDT (US)     18 / 26       
    but that was timur, and hes based in the timurid empire, or Iran as you may know the area.

    Not to mention that timur by then had the delhi sultanate as a vassal state. Delhi, as in that city in india, and the delhi sultanate sat on top of the whole northern india..


    But that kameles werent used in amerika, well, neither were the ottomans there. So go ahead and rework some of those horse-programs, to look like camels

    And yes, i want new mexican & arizonan indians riding camels.


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    Hal4
    Skirmisher
    posted 04-29-05 06:28 PM EDT (US)     19 / 26       
    No, the Ottomans probably never used elephants. You all, however, are missing the point. These are elephants. This is enough to justify them in any game. I fully expect that when ES makes a space sim, there will be elephants. If they made an RPG set in a alternate/modern/dystopia, elephants would no doubt rampage about the decrepit cities. If they make an educational game, it will assuredly be Ernie the Elephant teaches Medieval History.

    ES: Elephant Studios.

    Yup.


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    SilentScreams
    Skirmisher
    posted 04-29-05 07:30 PM EDT (US)     20 / 26       
    ^ we should all be listening to this man

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    Midala87
    Skirmisher
    posted 04-29-05 09:23 PM EDT (US)     21 / 26       
    ^Yes indeed.
    ^^Do not forget about mutated elephants.
    lief ericson
    Skirmisher
    posted 04-29-05 10:04 PM EDT (US)     22 / 26       
    They've had an elephant in every single one of their games to date. It would be a disservice to their fans to not include some Elephants.

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    rwilde
    Skirmisher
    posted 04-29-05 11:50 PM EDT (US)     23 / 26       
    Although Elephants would make a great scenario editor unit, I doubt we will see them. They weren't used in America or most other places. Main use was in Asia and North Africa, especially in India, and even today they are used to move logs in forestry, since they are so powerful, but I doubt we will see them in the game. Maybe in the scenario editor or an expansion, if we're lucky.

    A Gaia one would be great too for African maps. They are a really beautiful and amazing animal, and their behavior is a lot more interesting than you would think. I'm hoping for an expansion with an Asian civ, and some more African units, for a touch of "rest of the world". We haven't seen any Elephants in screen shots yet, but let's not give up.

    GoldenShadow
    Skirmisher
    posted 04-30-05 04:02 AM EDT (US)     24 / 26       
    Elephants could be a special home city shipment which you can't train in the new world.
    Indum
    Banned
    posted 04-30-05 04:58 AM EDT (US)     25 / 26       
    I really hope we won't see elephants, purely because of the theme of the game. They should be saved for some indian faction in the x-pack, since they used them, as said above, with muskeeters and cannons on their backs and also strapped spikes to their heads to use as battering rams.
    Feroz
    Skirmisher
    posted 04-30-05 01:18 PM EDT (US)     26 / 26       
    I agree with it being available as a shipment, and not being able to train them in the new world.

    ES: Elephant Studios - loving it


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