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Age of Empires III Heaven » Forums » General Discussions » will muskets make the game better?
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Topic Subject:will muskets make the game better?
Jim lister
Skirmisher
posted 05-29-05 11:45 AM EDT (US)         
In age of empires 1 and 2 there were no guns. except for the hand cannoneers. but will these muskets make the game better, personnaly im gunna miss the old charge. u still can charge with horses but its not gunna be as effective with the gunners picking ure men off their horses
AuthorReplies:
styrbiorn
Skirmisher
posted 05-29-05 11:54 AM EDT (US)     1 / 27       
If the game is reflecting history you won't have to fear. In most armies half the infantry was pikemen up till the late 17th century, and after that the bayonet appeared, and the charge remained a key to victory. Even in the 18th century some armies foces on melee combat, especially the Swedish (who aren't in, but anyway) which usually fired only two volleys and then charged with swords or bayonets.

[This message has been edited by styrbiorn (edited 05-29-2005 @ 11:55 AM).]

deduijk
Skirmisher
posted 05-29-05 03:22 PM EDT (US)     2 / 27       
I really hope the musketeers don't become the throwing axemen of aom (before bein toned down).

In the videos almost all u see are of muskets/cannons. I know the videos are supposed to be interesting and appealing, so i can understand why all of those were of GP units, but i really hope it won't be that in the game.

As in the timeperiod musketeers weren't nearly used as much (and if they did, had a poor shottime and poor accuracy).

But ES hasn't let me down so far; they focused on gameplay and balance and i hope the physics engine hasn't changed that. I know they are very proud of it (as they should be) but i hope that the disire to make units fly etc don't interfere with balanced gameplay.


CU,
deduijk

ES_DeathShrimp
VIP
posted 05-30-05 10:45 AM EDT (US)     3 / 27       
This is a time period of startling military diversity. While the Musketeer may form the backbone of a lot of civs' armies (though not at least 3 civs don't even have them), there are lots of other soldiers to use as well.
orionmoo
Skirmisher
posted 05-30-05 11:00 AM EDT (US)     4 / 27       
Ok, good. Thats comforting to hear

--orionmoo

"Timeline... Time is not made out of lines. It's made out of circles. That is why clocks are round" -- Caboose (Red vs Blue)

Ajs77311
Skirmisher
posted 05-30-05 12:48 PM EDT (US)     5 / 27       

Quote:

(though not at least 3 civs don't even have them),

So 3 civs' don't have Musketeers?

Cross them off my list to play.


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I am still waiting for Name change to Armed Rebel.

ThunderWalker
Skirmisher
posted 05-30-05 01:48 PM EDT (US)     6 / 27       
ok i was wonderin about hand-to-hand combat, like if your musket man shoots and then when someone gets right next to him and starts hitting him, does the musket guy just stand and keep shooting or does he use his gun to batter the other guy

"When you hear the THUNDER, it will be the last thing you hear!"
~Captain Kwen 3rd Calvary Division
HC Dragoon
Skirmisher
posted 05-30-05 01:57 PM EDT (US)     7 / 27       
Hmm that's strange, I think he means they don't have musketeers but still have gun powder units? probably the Ottomans, the Russians and maybe Germans? =/

@ ThunderWalker:
They would use their bayonets on the end of their guns, if they don't have bayonets they would probably just continue shootings at them all or maybe like you say hit them with their rifle butts, but I can't see that doing much damage.

deduijk
Skirmisher
posted 05-30-05 02:12 PM EDT (US)     8 / 27       
@thunderwalker
I think they would keep shooting at them if u have them in volleyformation. U'll have to change to charge formation to attack it with the bajonet (similar to the video: u c muskets comin at a cannon and start shooting at it. untill the formation was changed to charge formation and then they attacked with their bajonets).

CU,
deduijk

ThunderWalker
Skirmisher
posted 05-30-05 02:14 PM EDT (US)     9 / 27       
well i just dont think it would seem very realistic if he just stood there reloaded, shot the guy, reloaded shot him again while he gets the stuffing beat out of him, i guess then u just have to have a command thing to tell him to attack or whatever

"When you hear the THUNDER, it will be the last thing you hear!"
~Captain Kwen 3rd Calvary Division

[This message has been edited by ThunderWalker (edited 05-30-2005 @ 02:17 PM).]

Ajs77311
Skirmisher
posted 05-30-05 02:24 PM EDT (US)     10 / 27       
deduijk and ThunderWalker I'm sure it just would automaticly change the formation to charge or a melee type deal.

I'd like to see you do a volley while someone is stabbing out

Edit: (Below) Oh.


October 25th: 298th day of the year, coincidence, conspiracy? You Decide.

I am still waiting for Name change to Armed Rebel.

[This message has been edited by Ajs77311 (edited 05-30-2005 @ 02:32 PM).]

deduijk
Skirmisher
posted 05-30-05 02:27 PM EDT (US)     11 / 27       
In real life this wasn't done either, so it is realistic. The commander dictated when to put on the bajonets and charge. Else they were supposed to hold the line and fire volleys.

Wouldn't be real handy if a copple of ur line would start with their bajonets just as the row behind them start shooting.. Besides, the musketeers wouldn't be as effective. Because of their poor accuracy a line was the best way. that way you would have the most chance of hitting as many enemy soldiers as u could.

CU,
deduijk

deduijk
Skirmisher
posted 05-30-05 02:33 PM EDT (US)     12 / 27       
@Ajs77311
I would really hate it if my units automaticly changed formation. I am the commander.. I decide what to do and when

But seriously,, If an enemy was charging my 50 in 2 line musketeers with a few horses with behind them infantry. I would want my musketeers to hold the line. Especially if behind them is my cannon. Else they would break formation automaticly, thus not shoot at the infantry and cav anymore (and in volley formation chance they hit something r higher.., and more frequent, thus causing more damage) instead they would charge the few horses together, leaving wide open gaps between them for units to get trough and kill my cannon (not to mention they wouldn't cause nearly as much damage to the infantry as they could have).

CU,
deduijk

[This message has been edited by deduijk (edited 05-30-2005 @ 02:34 PM).]

AnC_Ivo17
Skirmisher
posted 05-30-05 02:34 PM EDT (US)     13 / 27       
Actually the russians used hussars untill the beginning of the 20th cantury. Actually till mid 19th century all armies except the german, french and britissh relied heavily on swords, pikes, etc. Ottomans have lot to do with gunpowder so i think their UU will be a sort of musketman(janissary). As with any long ranged unit muskets will be effective in large numbers and if u add to that strong artillery support u'll heva a hard to counter army. I wonder if there will be any land and water MINES!

In hoc signo vinces!
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Jim lister
Skirmisher
posted 05-30-05 04:39 PM EDT (US)     14 / 27       
i think that as soon as an enemy gets in a certain range or starts attacking with melee weapon ure soldiers will automatically use mellee against them.

but still i need a yes or no answer do you think muskets will male the game better

kipling
Skirmisher
posted 05-30-05 06:40 PM EDT (US)     15 / 27       
Hand-to-hand combat was still the way many battles ended up until the 1870's. The American Civil War started to change this - only 5-10% of casulties in this war resulted from melee.
ES_DeathShrimp
VIP
posted 05-30-05 06:49 PM EDT (US)     16 / 27       
If you close to melee with a squad in volley formation, ranged units will fight back hand-to-hand. Most of the formation will keep firing at the original target. Many ranged units aren't very good at melee combat, but it's still better than just dying without fighting back. Some ranged units like Musketeers are better at it, but to really benefit from the Musketeers' bayonets, you need to put them into a melee formation.
Thanatos
Skirmisher
(id: deathmaster666)
posted 05-30-05 07:19 PM EDT (US)     17 / 27       
I don't get what will be the main infantry weapon for those 3 civs then. Widespread use of rifles as a practical weapon comes after this time period. All of the civs in Ao3 were adept in the use of firearms but which ones will they use here? Hand Cannoneers? Arquebusiers? Some other wierd/primitive firearm?

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Rogueagle
Skirmisher
posted 05-30-05 09:42 PM EDT (US)     18 / 27       
I don't see a single civ (thats in the game) that historically didn't use muskets in the time period covered by the game. But i get the feeling that we are confusing units that use muskets with the AoE III unit the musketeer. So the Ottomans may have a Janissary, that may have great ranged damage, but lack the decent hand-to-hand damage characteristic of the unit that say...(guessing nearly randomly) France, Britain, Germany, Dutch, and Portuguese use, called the musketeer. And perhaps Spain will get an armoured musketeer looking unit that has only decent ranged damage, but great close combat because of its added armor. And perhaps Russia will get its Strelets that are merely ok, but inexpensive. (those examples primarily came from the way the game Cossacks did it, with some modifications for the sake of diversity).

I suppose we'll have to see if ES will clarify that.

WhoAskedU
Skirmisher
posted 05-30-05 11:46 PM EDT (US)     19 / 27       

Quote:

I don't get what will be the main infantry weapon for those 3 civs then. Widespread use of rifles as a practical weapon comes after this time period. All of the civs in Ao3 were adept in the use of firearms but which ones will they use here? Hand Cannoneers? Arquebusiers? Some other wierd/primitive firearm?

Muskets and Rifles are two COMPLETELY different weapon... It's like comparing apples and oranges. Rifles weren't used until much later in this time period and didn't get used widespread until the Civil War Era... Muskets were used early...

Muskets used the spherical musket ball while Rifles used the "bullet" shaped projectile we now use today...

And besides, he said that 3 civs won't have Muskets. He DIDN'T say that they won't have any type of gunpowder at all... I would expect all types of cannons and maybe even some rifles.


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Hal4
Skirmisher
posted 05-31-05 00:19 AM EDT (US)     20 / 27       

Quote:

And besides, he said that 3 civs won't have Muskets.

Well, "Musketeer," which doesn't technically preclude muskets.

In any case, y'all are in a tizzy over nothing. If it's bullets or arrows it's really all the same- if ranged units didn't ruin AoE yet, why would they now? This conniption over the fact that the form of propellant has been changed utterly mystifies me.

/edit: And when I say "tizzy" and "conniption," I mean the many threads and replies made with this sentiment of worry over gunpowder. It'd be like saying with respect to AoK- knights are going to ruin the game because they have heavy armor and fast horses!- when they were hardly any different from the cavalry of AoE. Now, I grant that archer to gunpowder ought to, and I imagine will, effect a greater change, but given that the gameplay as a whole seems to change far more from AoK to Ao3 than from AoE to AoK, why this would be a reason for any special concern escapes me.


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[This message has been edited by Hal4 (edited 05-31-2005 @ 00:22 AM).]

THE_champion95
Skirmisher
posted 05-31-05 03:56 AM EDT (US)     21 / 27       
Im really looking forward to the whole musketeer concept of the game. I just like the idea of massing them and shooting everything

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Takk
Skirmisher
(id: Luke_Feanor)
posted 05-31-05 06:50 AM EDT (US)     22 / 27       
One thing I've noticed with the muskets is that when they fire in formation (with the front row kneeling), if the two opposing armies are offset in front of each other (half of one overlaps half of the enemy formation), the musketeers opposing no-one still fire in a sraight line, and the shot simply hits the ground. Surely they would angle themselves in a bit to make sure they hit someone? Or am I missing something?

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George_K
Skirmisher
posted 05-31-05 07:48 AM EDT (US)     23 / 27       
i think muskets will make the game way better, if they didnt add all new kinds of weapons and units AOE 3 would just be the same as all the other AOE games.
Bored Scotsman
Skirmisher
(id: Colonel Sharpe)
posted 05-31-05 11:56 AM EDT (US)     24 / 27       

Quote:

Muskets used the spherical musket ball while Rifles used the "bullet" shaped projectile we now use today...


No.

Rifles, especially early rifles, used balls as well.

a Rifle is a weapon with a rifles barrell (grooves along the interior that spin the projectile).

The Prussians and the British were among the first to use them in large numbers, primarily as skirmishing weapons - the British Rifle regiments helped dismantle the Armies of France in Portugal and Spain owing to the complete unwillingness of Napoleon to arm his men with weapons that were so slow to load.



Colonel Sharpe
Billman
Skirmisher
posted 05-31-05 12:55 PM EDT (US)     25 / 27       

Quote:

I don't get what will be the main infantry weapon for those 3 civs then. Widespread use of rifles as a practical weapon comes after this time period. All of the civs in Ao3 were adept in the use of firearms but which ones will they use here? Hand Cannoneers? Arquebusiers? Some other wierd/primitive firearm?


Right we've been told that 3 nations don't get musketeers, but I don't see why some many people are getting concerned.

Not every nation had musketeers, but I'm 100% sure that the civs in AOE3 will get regular, cheap gunpowder units. A good example is the Ottomans - they had no 'musketeer' units. The Janissarys and other similar forces took that role.

I would hate it if all nations got musketeers, as this just didn't happen.


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Ceres629
Skirmisher
posted 05-31-05 01:51 PM EDT (US)     26 / 27       

Quote:

In any case, y'all are in a tizzy over nothing. If it's bullets or arrows it's really all the same- if ranged units didn't ruin AoE yet, why would they now? This conniption over the fact that the form of propellant has been changed utterly mystifies me.

I really have to agree there. Whether the units fire arrows of spherical balls or bullets, a ranged unit is still a ranged unit. It never messed up any Age game before it so why will it now? :S

Can someone explain to me why muskets could ruin the game but archers don't?

Natalinasmpf
Banned
posted 05-31-05 02:17 PM EDT (US)     27 / 27       
Two things different: muskets have smoothbore: they have "scatter".

Muskets will probably damage friendly units if say, the target is in the line of fire....although at farther ranges the possibility is lower.

Whereas hand cannoneers have a curved trajectory.

Or at least that's the way it works in American Conquest (Cossacks engine).

Whereas rifles are slower to load, at least during this time period. They are more like sniper weapons (to compare, of course this is not true today.)

Also mind you, firearms in this period are smoky, inaccurate, still slow to load (in real life, the maximum speed of a musket was a shot every ten seconds, and that's if you were very very fast in stamping down the ramrod, etc.)....pikemen are the staple unit of this period, actually. Dead on, reliable, hardy, and relatively long ranged and effective en masse. (For armoured ones, anyway.)

To an extent, of course.

Quote:

u still can charge with horses but its not gunna be as effective with the gunners picking ure men off their horses

The Cavalry Charge was still prominent until 1915, when machine gun fire changed everything in WWI, actually.

In fact, if you have something like cataphracts, (the equivalent, lets say, the Winged Hussar), or armoured cavalry, the musket balls do much less damage due to the momentum of the other force. Mind you, the musket was shot point blank: you can't "pick off men off the horses" - that's something riflemen do.

Muskets are like early shotguns: smoothbore caliber and aimed point blank. You didn't aim at an individual: you took a bunch of musketeers as a formation unit, and aimed it at another formation unit, and in a volley for maximum effect (so the scatter goes everywhere in one shot, volley to cover all areas at once so the enemy can't "run away" from the scatter).

This was usually quite devastating at close range, but mind you, then there was a period where this meant the musketeers were totally vulnerable as they were reloading.

THEN the cavalry charged. It was all about coordination, timing, and outmaneouvring your enemy. In fact, I like this era, because unlike say, AoK, where its skirmisher against archer, the musketeer can easily beat the cavalry at one point, or get slaugheted in the other. Also, row by row firing (ie. one row fires, but not the other) also allows you to have "emergency" point blank.

There are very key differences between rifles and muskets. Rifles were expensive to make, and hard to make with precision. Muskets, somewhat, but with less production problems. Muskets found it hard to pierce armor, whereas rifles had little problem.

[This message has been edited by Natalinasmpf (edited 05-31-2005 @ 02:26 PM).]

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