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Age of Empires III Heaven » Forums » General Discussions » Rodeleros
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Topic Subject:Rodeleros
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Swiffle
Skirmisher
posted 10-20-05 10:58 PM EDT (US)         
These seem to be a pretty weak unit to me :/
Here's stats for a quick rundown(thx elpea for unit stats page).
65 food/35 gold
130 HP
Speed 6
Melee attack 11, 3x vs cav
40% hand resistance

Let's compare this to a musketeer, and hussar.
Musketeer
75 food/25 gold
150 HP
Speed 4
Melee attack 13, 3x vs cav
Ranged attack 23 @ range 12, 3s cooldown
20% hand resistance

Keep in mind melee attacks at 1.5s cooldown.

For approximately the same cost(cheaper if you consider that food gathers quicker than gold), you get a unit with 20 more HP, a better melee attack, same bonus vs cavalry, and a solid ranged attack. With the only upside on the rodelero being the hand resistance, which is countered by lower HP, and the higher speed. Melee units still have pathing issues and get blocked on each trying to chase units down, even when they reach a target
I'll make one more point, rodeleros (and all melee units) have access to "Cover" formation which halves ranged damage. This would be very good, but it also halves speed, and the units own attack. Thus, even with the extra ranged defense, they'll be able to stay in a fight longer, but won't be able to inflict any realy damage.

Hussar
120 Food 80 Gold
290 HP
6.75 Speed
Melee attack 30
10% Ranged resistance

This is appromately twice the cost of the rodelero, for a unit that has more than 2x the HP, resistance to ranged, near 3x melee attack, and faster. Only downside is larger collision size, which again it tough for them to engage targets in melee. Since Hussars are cavalry, they'll lose to (in tier 2) only musketeers, pikemen, and rodeleros. Everything else in tier 2 beats pikemen, and rodeleros < musketeers and rodeleros = rodeleros.

Not saying Rodeleros are useless, but I'm having trouble finding a use for them. You'd think they'd beat infantry if they can get in range, but they don't. Even wimpy crossbowmen, can stand up to them, simply due to the fact while the front row would switch to the pitiful hand attack, the xbows further back would still be engaging with the ranged attack which does significant damage.


Playing: Poker. Yay.
Retired: Age of Empires 3, Warcraft 3, Guild Wars, Dark Age of Camelot, Age of Empires 2.
AuthorReplies:
Corbie
Skirmisher
posted 10-21-05 09:22 PM EDT (US)     26 / 50       
I just checked in the scenario editor..

12 unupgraded muskets vs 12 unupgraded rodeleros.

I had the rodeleros charge, so the muskets didnt get an opening volley. As the fight spread out a bit, some of the musketeers still got ranged shots off though.

Anyway, in the end.. 5 musketeers where left standing.. all rodeleros dead.

Here is the thing though. check the spanish cards. They have ALOT of Rodelero bonus cards.. and then there is the HP upgrades from the arsenal and the church.

Id like to know how they stack up against each other when fully upgraded.

TheGoodEvil
Skirmisher
posted 10-21-05 09:26 PM EDT (US)     27 / 50       
ahh maybe they are better against other things like cav/pikes than musketeers but I'd rather have rodeleros for the fast speed than the musketeers and range.

he who fights and runs away live to fight another day

TGE


TGE's RTS Blog, news, thoughts, and advice on RTS gaming

Able Company (my job)

"I've kicked more ass on accident than most people have on purpose"

Raging_Death
Skirmisher
posted 10-21-05 09:33 PM EDT (US)     28 / 50       

Quote:

ahh maybe they are better against other things like cav/pikes than musketeers but I'd rather have rodeleros for the fast speed than the musketeers and range.
he who fights and runs away live to fight another day

Musketeers won't have to run because they'll win.

TheGoodEvil
Skirmisher
posted 10-21-05 09:38 PM EDT (US)     29 / 50       
yeah but if you find yourself being chased by a larger army i'd like to have the extra speed, but they would be better at raiding buildings I think, I don't know I have a lvl8 spain HC that I never use anymore because I suck with spain they aren't my playstyle

I'll try them some more though

TGE


TGE's RTS Blog, news, thoughts, and advice on RTS gaming

Able Company (my job)

"I've kicked more ass on accident than most people have on purpose"

ShadowZX
Skirmisher
posted 10-21-05 09:42 PM EDT (US)     30 / 50       
In my opnion Rodeleros r cheap units which u can use for raiding since they r fast or as meat shield, to defend ur cannon or to guard ur horses against pikeman, rodeleros r support units, not stand alone units like the musketers who can pretty much stand up to many units (all rounder). They r alose a cheap replace ment for hussars since they r cheaper and can be massed faster. Every unit has its use and importance
TheGoodEvil
Skirmisher
posted 10-21-05 09:46 PM EDT (US)     31 / 50       
I do remember chasing down hussars with rodes though LOL it was pretty funny, because of the formation slowing if a rode can hit the hussar it will slow them all down enough to be annihilated by the rodes lol

Yeah they aren't bad units, so far I really haven't found a "bad" unit. Pikes pwn can and kill buildings faster than siege

I like the unit balance so far.

TGE


TGE's RTS Blog, news, thoughts, and advice on RTS gaming

Able Company (my job)

"I've kicked more ass on accident than most people have on purpose"

Swiffle
Skirmisher
posted 10-21-05 10:04 PM EDT (US)     32 / 50       
Well, I think they could use a slight buff regardless. Here's some things that might help.
150+ HP
or
Cover mode doesn't reduce attack damage(i.e. defend for footmen in wc3)
or
Hand attack increased to >= musketeer hand attack.
or
10-20% cost decrease.

etc.


Playing: Poker. Yay.
Retired: Age of Empires 3, Warcraft 3, Guild Wars, Dark Age of Camelot, Age of Empires 2.
Corbie
Skirmisher
posted 10-21-05 11:55 PM EDT (US)     33 / 50       
try em with all their buffs. betcha money that you will have a horde of uber units.
parallax7d
Skirmisher
posted 10-22-05 00:53 AM EDT (US)     34 / 50       
I look at Rodeleros as 'Super Pikemen'. If you know you are going against lots of cavalry, and need the line to hold, then rodeleros do a much better job. Plus they can also fight musketeers and other hand units and do a decent job.

Given that, I rarely use them anymore since I've learned that they cost about as much as musketeers, and compared to musketeers they are a total waste of resources. Musketeers in melee mode are simply better, even though they are slightly slower.

To fix them I think they need to be 15 gold cheaper, or increase their hitpoints by 20%. They wouldn't be uber at that point, since they are still melee only, but they would at least be usefull!

Matei
Skirmisher
posted 10-22-05 01:06 AM EDT (US)     35 / 50       
I think Rodeleros are meant for raiding, not for matching other units 1v1. It's a lot cheaper to train a bunch of Rodeleros at your Barracks than to create a stable or native village if you want to get raiding units. You can also ship a decent amount of them as soon as you hit age 2.

Programmer on 0 A.D., author of Norse Wars, co-author of Fort Wars.
GoldenShadow
Skirmisher
posted 10-22-05 01:16 AM EDT (US)     36 / 50       
Its like the spanish have 2 versions of pikemen, one that costs food and wood, and one that costs food and gold.
This is good since you can always make melee units if you are low on gold, or low on wood.
Ceres629
Skirmisher
posted 10-22-05 08:07 AM EDT (US)     37 / 50       

Quote:

I look at Rodeleros as 'Super Pikemen'. If you know you are going against lots of cavalry, and need the line to hold, then rodeleros do a much better job. Plus they can also fight musketeers and other hand units and do a decent job.

Rodaleros are not better than pikemen at defeating cav. Pikemen do slightly less damage but have a 5X multiplier against cavalry. Especially since the spanish have uber pikemen

Swiffle
Skirmisher
posted 10-22-05 08:11 AM EDT (US)     38 / 50       
In a straight up fight, pikemen would do slightly better. Against harassment rodeleros would have a marginally better chance of being able to run hussars down if the opponent is careless. Either way both units suck~ Muskets/hussars >>
Nice sig Ceres.

Playing: Poker. Yay.
Retired: Age of Empires 3, Warcraft 3, Guild Wars, Dark Age of Camelot, Age of Empires 2.
Ceres629
Skirmisher
posted 10-22-05 08:16 AM EDT (US)     39 / 50       

Quote:

Nice sig Ceres

Haha thx! I'm just so depressed that my favourite civ (Spanish) has the lowest win percentage. Since I don't have the full version yet to try and get some spanish revenge, the only thing I can do is to educate(lol) spanish players to realise that Rodaleros are not worth building, the sooner they realise it the better!

Swiffle
Skirmisher
posted 10-22-05 08:19 AM EDT (US)     40 / 50       
Yeah it's amusing that alone I have 5% of the wins for spanish overall :/
Here's a decent game against hZ_Logo I played yesterday
http://www.crymorenewb.com/swiffle/age3/loss to hZ_logo gg.age3rec

Playing: Poker. Yay.
Retired: Age of Empires 3, Warcraft 3, Guild Wars, Dark Age of Camelot, Age of Empires 2.
schildpad
Skirmisher
posted 10-22-05 08:21 AM EDT (US)     41 / 50       
you forget one thing, imo pikes are quite useless because you just let your hussars go past them. thats why i only make dragoonss/ruyther to protect cannons instead of pikemen.

"such a kind fellow!" ~ ķįŋğ_Ćħŗĩš_ĬĬ

Furby killer should be crowned leader of AOE forum ~ [SW_GD]Teutonic

parallax7d
Skirmisher
posted 10-22-05 09:38 AM EDT (US)     42 / 50       
Ceres your wrong, going againsts Hussars Rodeleros would do better

Pikemen do 20% more damage per second, but Rodeleros have 36% more hitpoints vs. Hussars when you take into consideration their hand resists.

This means each second a hussar would do 27 damage to a pikeman with each blow, taking 5 hits to finish it, or 7.5 seconds. The pikemen in this time would do 200 damage to the hussar over this time period before dying.

A hussar would do only 18 damage per blow to a rodelero, taking 8 blows to finish it, or 12 seconds. The rodelero in this time would do 264 damage to the hussar over this time period before dying.

The Rodelero can be considered an uber pikemen, they have no relation to the musketeer. They are not useless. They are a superior meatshield when the enemy isn't using too many ranged units.

[This message has been edited by parallax7d (edited 10-22-2005 @ 09:41 AM).]

Ceres629
Skirmisher
posted 10-22-05 03:12 PM EDT (US)     43 / 50       
Pikemen cost less than Rodaleros. That makes them better, they only have 10hp less than rodaleros as well
GoldenShadow
Skirmisher
posted 10-22-05 03:16 PM EDT (US)     44 / 50       
Once you hit pop limit, do you want your pop wasted on pikemen or rodeleros?
Ceres629
Skirmisher
posted 10-22-05 04:08 PM EDT (US)     45 / 50       

Quote:

Once you hit pop limit, do you want your pop wasted on pikemen or rodeleros?

I almost never hit pop limit but if I did and the enemy had tons of cavalary, I would prefer to have Tercio Pikemen because they can level bases WAY faster than rodeleros.

Pikemen have HUGE siege dmg.

Corbie
Skirmisher
posted 10-22-05 05:14 PM EDT (US)     46 / 50       
Well i just did a comparison of fully upgraded british musketeers, and fully upgraded spanish rodeleros.. and the musketeers still have better stats.

Kinda surprising. Id love to try having the upgraded muskets and upgraded rodeleros fight each other.. but I cant figure out how to upgrade units in the scenario editor (if its even possible).

All in all.. im surprised at just how weak the rodeleros are for their cost. Speed is not THAT big of a benefit.


Id like to see the gold cost reduced to 25 gold. That way it is 10 food cheaper than musketeers.. and that would be a good enough excuse for me to make them my "main" unit.

unjugon
Skirmisher
posted 10-22-05 06:59 PM EDT (US)     47 / 50       
Note: I have only played the demo, not the full version.

I think people arenīt using rodeleros appropiately. This is especially directed at Ceres, who seems to like the Spanish as much as I do.

Overall, whatīs Spainīs strongest point? Melee cavalry and infantry! The key IMO is to use both types together. What counters infantry? Cannons especially, also skirms --> your hand cavalry counters these. What counters cavalry? Pikemen especially --> your rodeleros counter these.

Now, the main problems can be dragoons and muskets. However, half the time the dragoons will be shooting at the rodeleros, with no attack bonus having effect. Thus, the dragoons turn into expensive skirms. The muskets can be kept under control by lancers, and also crossbowmen.

IMO whatīs good about rodeleros+hand cavalry is that a combo of these is hard to counter as they have different armor types as to say. Also, both have great speed.

The way I would play Spanish and level up the home city would be to outnumber the enemy army with many troop shipments consisting mainly of hussars and rodeleros. Also, the 20-crossbows-card is a must-have for Spanish IMO, to counter mass muskets at some point and provide with some ranged support.


My blog, for WC3 and AoE3 strats and articles:
http://unjugon.blogspot.com/
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Ceres629
Skirmisher
posted 10-29-05 07:48 AM EDT (US)     48 / 50       
A army comprised solely of melee units is asking for trouble. It is far better to just use musketeers as spanish, especially in the beginning since all civ's have pretty much equal strength musketeers until maybe the 3 an 4th ages when special upgrade cards and royal upgrades kick in. At that point Lancers can do the trick with musketeer support.

Once the game is released in europe and everyone plays enough to understand the game, ES will soon realise that rodeleros are woefully underpowered and will buff them. I personally think they should either get a hefty boost in HP maybe 170HP or a small boost to HP and an attack multiplier against infantry as well (maybe 2x)

In a game where ranged units are so plentiful, and especially when those ranged units can also switch to melee mode, it is hard for pure melee units to be effective, they are not as versatile and their melee prowess does no counter their lack of ranged attacks. Lancers are buy far the best melee unit in the game since they completely destroy all but the most hardcore cav counters.

For a civ that it supposed to have the strongest melee units, it is confusing as to why they have the suckiest hand melee infantry in the entire game, where as the germans get the dopplesoldner which seems to have uber stats. Hell even janissaries without their ranged attack would be a better melee units than rodeleros.

Swiffle
Skirmisher
posted 10-29-05 08:00 AM EDT (US)     49 / 50       
war dogs > rodeleros. not joking.

Playing: Poker. Yay.
Retired: Age of Empires 3, Warcraft 3, Guild Wars, Dark Age of Camelot, Age of Empires 2.
Ceres629
Skirmisher
posted 10-29-05 08:34 AM EDT (US)     50 / 50       

Quote:

war dogs > rodeleros. not joking.

In fact in colonial I think wardogs are actually better than rodeleros. Colonial wardogs have 105hp and 18 attack and are trained by an explorer hence you can have your barracks free to make other units and since they cost no pop they have a even lower cost thanks to not needing extra houses. An early battle that you looked to have been losing can suddenly be won when 5 wardogs pop out of nowhere from your explorer. Early game a funny thing to do is to tank your explorer right into the middle of their ranged units and just train 5 wardogs right in the middle of them. (sure to be effective against longbowmen and crossbowmen who have sucky melee attack.

Wardogs > rodeleros without a doubt (in colonial at least)

[This message has been edited by Ceres629 (edited 10-29-2005 @ 08:38 AM).]

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