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Age of Empires III Heaven » Forums » General Discussions » Alternate victory types
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Topic Subject:Alternate victory types
Washizu
HG Alumnus
(id: Angel Washizu)
posted 11-15-05 03:11 PM EDT (US)         
I didn't play much AOM, but I played a ton of AOE/AOK (as some of you old timers will know). I'm having a blast with AOE3, but the only thing I miss is the alternate victory types. In AOE/AOK you could build a Wonder and hold it for a certain amount of time. In AOE you could hold all the relics. AOK had the regicide option as well.

Some of the best AOE/AOK games I ever played were trying to hold or destroy a wonder. I wonder why ES got rid of them.


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Kaziglu Bey
Skirmisher
posted 11-15-05 03:55 PM EDT (US)     1 / 22       
Another thing that likely would have been improved if they had opted to delay the release somewhat. They decided not to do that this time so some things had to go in ordet to get into releasing shape. I wish they had taken a delay like in the past to get a really spectacular game together. The more you play the more you are likely to find some things here and there having been cut a wee bit short. Not having played AoM so much helps though, as you won't feel as familiar with some old quirks from back then.
ParCorn
Skirmisher
posted 11-15-05 04:02 PM EDT (US)     2 / 22       
They had to get it out before the XBOX 360, ot it would hav been much more widely ignored. They also obviously had to get it out before the holidays, or the run the risk of missing the great sales boost from it.

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Washizu
HG Alumnus
(id: Angel Washizu)
posted 11-16-05 08:18 AM EDT (US)     3 / 22       
Well, I can't say the game feels rushed. So far it's been almost completely bug free (except the nasty bug with the 2 tower card that sometimes prevents one of them from being built).

One thing I really like is the length of the game. Most of my games last 25-35 minutes whereas most of my AOE/AOK games last ed 45-85 minutes.


But to keep this thread on topic, what alternate victory types did you like the best in past age games and what would you like to see?

AOE had building a wonder, capturing the relics, and capturing the ruins.
AOK had building a wonder and regicide.

I guess the wonder idea doesn't translate well to the colonial period. Maybe they could built a permanent settlement.


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some_player
Skirmisher
posted 11-16-05 10:05 AM EDT (US)     4 / 22       
I guess what comes closesed to wonders would be the "Declaration of Independence".
Would be a feasible way to end the wars with the other colonial powers and hence win the game.

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Cy Marlayne
Skirmisher
posted 11-16-05 12:04 PM EDT (US)     5 / 22       

Quote:

I guess what comes closesed to wonders would be the "Declaration of Independence".
Would be a feasible way to end the wars with the other colonial powers and hence win the game.

That's like saying, "Hey, I no longer want HC shipments!" But good idea, nonetheless. Actually... I think you might be on to something...

Check this out......

Rules:
- The first nation to successfully win their independence wins.
- To declare independence you need to advance to the Imperial Age, build a Capitol, and research the tech Declare Independence (which is only available for this game type).
- After declaring independence, you lose access to your Home City. Your Home Nation then allies with all of your enemies on the map and sends them small shipments of unique units to destroy your Capitol. You and your allies will have a set amount of time to defend your Capitol from all of your enemies.
- If your Capitol survives until the end of the timer, then you are awarded your independence and your team wins the game. However, if your Capitol is destroyed, then you do not win your independence (you regain access to your Home City when this happens).
- If you fail to win your independence, the timer stops, and another player on the map will be allowed to try to fight for theirs. It is possible for more than one timer to be running in the case that more than one player is trying to gain their independence at a time.
- If all players fail to win their independence, then the Declare Independence tech can then be re-research by everyone once again (everyone must have had a turn first). Everyone, of course, will have to rebuild their Capitols to research the tech again.
- It is possible for more than one player to try to declare independence at the same time, but all players can only research the tech once until everyone else has had their turn at it, and, of course, failed.


This is a nice idea, if I may say so myself, some_player. Anyone have any thoughts on this?

[This message has been edited by Cy Marlayne (edited 11-16-2005 @ 12:07 PM).]

Washizu
HG Alumnus
(id: Angel Washizu)
posted 11-16-05 01:42 PM EDT (US)     6 / 22       
Not bad! I like it. You essentially get the same gameplay as a Wonder, but it still fits the time period.
some_player
Skirmisher
posted 11-16-05 01:57 PM EDT (US)     7 / 22       
Intriguing idea, initially intricate, but if implemented properly, I am sure it would add a whole new dimension to the game.

Something along the lines described by Cy Marlayne, with support from the mother country, maybe with a number of unique units, for each player of the opposing team. If the mother country is not comming for you herself that is.


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[This message has been edited by some_player (edited 11-16-2005 @ 02:00 PM).]

MosheLevi
Scenario Contest Winner
posted 11-16-05 02:07 PM EDT (US)     8 / 22       

This is a very nice idea some_player and Cy Marlayne,

If I may, I would like to add a few extra rules to your “Victory Condition” scenario.

It may be more interesting if the Capitols can only be placed in a specific centralized location on the map.
A place that is harder to defend.
Also, only one Capitol can stand up before you can declare Independence.
If a second Capitol is built, then the timer for the first player will go back to zero.
The timer will not start again until only one capitol is standing.

This way 2 or more Capitols may be built very close to each other in the central of the map, and the battles could get very intense.

If your opponent destroys all of your town centers, then the count down goes back to zero, and it may start again once you build a new town center.

This way, a player has more than one way to stop you from declaring independence.

There is one small issue that needs to be resolved first.
You see, most games don’t even make it to the Fortress Age, not to mention Industrial age.
So this type of game should probably start in the Fortress age, and each player should have maybe two town centers with 7 or more villagers for each town center.
This will allow all the players to advance to the Industrial age pretty fast.

Cy Marlayne
Skirmisher
posted 11-16-05 02:33 PM EDT (US)     9 / 22       
I like those ideas, MosheLevi--especially the TC and starting age ideas. I wouldn't exactly like for the Capitols to be away from the actual cities though, because, realistically, Capitols are built within the heart of a city.

About the timer, I was meaning that once you've Declared Independence, you have about 20 minutes or so (just throwing out a number) to defend your Capitol. If it is destroyed before the timer reaches 0, then your timer disappears and you regain access to your HC as if you never declared independence.

If another player builds a Capitol and declares independence too, then you'll have two timers going. Are you saying that if my timer is at 11 out of 20 and the enemy declares independence that my timer should go back up to 20? That would be a nice way to counter someone's declaration if you're not ready to attack. I like that.


Also, if you don't like the starting age, then perhaps we could make it so that capitols can be built in Colonial so that you could declare independence at any age above Discovery. But, of course, declaring independence early on will make it much harder to succeed since you'll be loosing access to your HC and the enemy will be receiving a free small army to kill you with.

[This message has been edited by Cy Marlayne (edited 11-16-2005 @ 02:38 PM).]

Blue_Devil
Skirmisher
posted 11-16-05 02:38 PM EDT (US)     10 / 22       
I like that idea, too.

I very much enjoy supremacy, but like to change things up once-in-a-while, and deathmatch just doesn't do it for me. (which is not to say it isn't a worthwhile feature, since many do like it).

I tend to agree that getting to imperial would take far too long, since the Imperial advance is so expensive (and designed to itself be a game ender, given the techs that become available). Perhaps the capital should be available in industrial, but not the techs. That way you could move ahead with it in age 4.

It is unlikely that such a game would be favored by experts, since it would move more slowly, but there's no reason to decry it as a bad idea on that notion alone.

As for a replacement for regicide... well, why not "capture the governor" or some such thing. I would put a twist on the old regicide rules though, and limit the buildings in which the governor can garrison, lest the game simply be a version of supremacy in which you start out with more buildings/resources, like regicide in AOK was.

Additionally, I'd still really like to see the addition of an in-game diplomacy feature. I enjoyed some of those longer games where you had to plan out early positions and whatnot, especially on maps of the entire world. Naturally, that calls for an increased map size, too.

I'd also enjoy seeing a redux of that game where you had to kill a specific player, then you take on his assignment. I think it was called assassins or some such thing.

Oh, and I do miss the relic victories of AOE.

Again, not likely the gamestyles of choice for experts, since supremacy is probably the best for deciding power-rankings, but their is probably more than enough of an audience for games like this. Perhaps in the expansion or a patch. One can hope, anyway.

StonewallJ
Seraph Emeritus
(id: Conquistador34)
posted 11-16-05 02:49 PM EDT (US)     11 / 22       
They do not have wonders because they felt a wonder in the new world would be a little out there. But true, only two types of games aren't a great variety. Maybe in the x-pack.

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MosheLevi
Scenario Contest Winner
posted 11-16-05 03:00 PM EDT (US)     12 / 22       

Quote:

Are you saying that if my timer is at 11 out of 20 and the enemy declares independence that my timer should go back up to 20?

Yes, or the timer will go away and not come back until there is only one capitol standing.

What I meant is that yes, there are two ways to counter the “Declaration of Independence”.
The normal way of destroying the Capitol.
The second way is to build a Capitol yourself, which will stop (or even reset) the timer for the other Capitol.
After all, only one Capitol can stand up, as only one player can declare independence.

Now, I think that once a capitol is built, the timer for the victory should not be more than 10 minutes.
The reason that I was suggesting that the Capitols will have to be built at a centralized location on the map,
is because it would be too hard (and too long) to get to the location of the Capitol if it is placed near your town center.
This area is going to be defended heavily, and it would be too hard to do that in 10 minuets (and 20 minutes is too long to wait for in order to win the game).
Besides, if you have to go into your opponent’s home base, then it would be very much like a normal game where you have to destroy his town center.

By having the capitols in a central area in the map, it will allow for more twist and turns in the game, where each side takes control (very similar to “King of the Hill” scenario) of that area and build his capitol.
It would also allow the players to engage the enemy in two fronts.
One is the capitol area, and the second is still the home base area, where you can stop the count or even win if you destroy your opponent’s town centers.

In any case, it’s just an idea, there could be two scenarios instead of one for this type of game.
One that allows you to build your Capitol anywhere, and one that restricts that to the middle of the map.
But it is really up to Ensemble to decide and implement such scenarios.

[This message has been edited by MosheLevi (edited 11-16-2005 @ 06:08 PM).]

Cy Marlayne
Skirmisher
posted 11-16-05 05:48 PM EDT (US)     13 / 22       
Well we really need to get ES to see this because it's a really good idea!

How do we get their attention?

Lysimachus
Skirmisher
posted 11-16-05 05:57 PM EDT (US)     14 / 22       
Angel Washizu, wow, just your name brings back old memories.

I remember you when you were moderating AoEH back in 1998. You did great at keeping the community alive. Where have you been all these years? Good to see you posting once again!

I added you to my msn btw, but I don't know if that email in your profile will work.


~Lysimachus - Former HG Angel for Rise & Fall Heaven || Was RaFH Game Info Admin || Proud Member of HG since 1998
Doggiedoodle
Skirmisher
posted 11-16-05 09:45 PM EDT (US)     15 / 22       
I always disliked multiple win types. I read in the booklet thoguh that there's some win condition based on controling TPs.
some_player
Skirmisher
posted 11-17-05 08:14 AM EDT (US)     16 / 22       
Based on the Independence idea:

Your capitol will spawn a bunch of "congress members" (envoy type of guys - with cute hats, no attack and good los) once you declare your independence, let's say 12 of them.

model A:

If you loose more than 4 (or any fixed number) of them your victory timer will be set back to zero.

model B:

Your victory timer will be set back 1.5 min for each "congress member" you loose.

Optional:

The "congress members" have to be within a certain distance of the capitol in order to "count down" the timer.
Or the count down is slower as fewer "members" are around.

At first I thought of vills as "members" since they would be the ones "voting" on the independance, but the French would have a big advantage, since their vills are harder to kill, and the Dutch a big disadvantage since their vill-cap is rather small. So cute hatted "congress men" come into play.


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Playing Classic Age3 again
Cy Marlayne
Skirmisher
posted 11-17-05 11:31 AM EDT (US)     17 / 22       
That might be good for an alternate game type, but not for the independence one. The independence one is more wonder-like. Your new idea is more regicide-like.

Keep it up with the new ideas. I'm going to make a new thread to get ES's attention once we have at least 5 ideas.

TheGoodEvil
Skirmisher
posted 11-17-05 11:42 AM EDT (US)     18 / 22       
maybe that option would be fine in singleplayer mode. as of now the 3 options online are perfect for online play. FFA, DM, and conquest = perfect variety, any more and then the community gets devided.

TGE


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Washizu
HG Alumnus
(id: Angel Washizu)
posted 11-17-05 12:04 PM EDT (US)     19 / 22       
Lysimachus,
I usually don't log into MSN because my IM client (Trillian) doesn't work well with it anymore. I'm usually on ICQ though (4438671).

Geeze, 1998 is a long time ago isn't it?

I like the Independence/Capital option a lot and think it should be in future games, although I doubt anyone would be able to make it that far.

When it gets fleshed out, send a note to Aro and I'm sure he'll post in on the news page.


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MosheLevi
Scenario Contest Winner
posted 11-17-05 12:34 PM EDT (US)     20 / 22       

I am not so sure about the "congress members" idea.
What is their purpose? To be annoying?
If they bring no benefit to the game play, then they would just become a liability.

Besides, we need to keep it simple if we want Ensemble to implement something like that in one of the patches.
If we start adding new units to the game, it will add more development work as well, and we won’t see anything like that until the expansion comes out.

So far, all the ideas that people came up with are within the current game play (with the exception for the timer that was implemented in AOM).

So, please let us keep it simple.

Cy Marlayne
Skirmisher
posted 11-17-05 01:55 PM EDT (US)     21 / 22       

Quote:

What is their purpose? To be annoying?

Lol, okay, you're right. :P

some_player
Skirmisher
posted 11-17-05 02:29 PM EDT (US)     22 / 22       
Maybe I didn't express myself clear enough. The purpose of the "congress members" would indeed be more regicide-like. You would have to chase them down in order to slow the victory timer.
They would be somewhat around the capitol (with the optional idea that is) so finding them would be easier.
Destruction of the capitol would stop the timer, but not reset it, killing the congress members resets the timer.

If you want it simple:
Declare Independence, timer countdown starts, destruction of the capitol ends timer.
Fair and square. Just like the old wonder. Which is why a new "twist" would be nice.

Keep in mind that these ideas are meant for people tired of supremacy or DM (which have still the same victory condition - kill everybody)and who want something different.


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Playing Classic Age3 again
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