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Age of Empires III Heaven » Forums » General Discussions » Ruyters > Cuirassiers
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Topic Subject:Ruyters > Cuirassiers
Cy Marlayne
Skirmisher
posted 01-12-06 03:03 PM EDT (US)         
In a 3v3 "no attack for 25 min" game last night, these were the teams:

Dutch
Dutch
Germans

VS.

French
French
Germans

Both French players massed Cuirassiers. Both Dutch players massed Ruyters. Both German players massed War Wagons.

Who do you think won?


Since the Dutch can potentially have 150 Ruyters. That's roughly 300 Ruyters on the field against 80 Cuirassiers. You do the math. This isn't counting the German War Wagons or the fact that both Dutch players (I was one of them) know how to micro Ruyters very well.

The German player had the responsibility of making the cannons when the French players started massing Halberdiers and Skirmishers instead of Cuirassiers. By that time both Dutch started massing Skirmishers, Cree Trackers, Halberdiers and Ruyters, because their German ally was still making War Wagons and both French were still trying to raid with Cuirassiers, and eventually added Dragoons. Eventually I started massing cannons, and we just overwhelmed them.

This is all late game statistics, mind you. Perhaps if there had been no "no attack" rules, it might have played out differently, but the fact of the matter is that Cuirassiers are not OP when facing Dutch Ruyters.


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AuthorReplies:
schildpad
Skirmisher
posted 01-12-06 03:07 PM EDT (US)     1 / 17       
depends on upgrades, once my guard halbs and guars ruyther were getting owned by cuirassier it was roughly:

50 halbs + 75 ruyther vs 45 courassier


however in the end i had 4 stables with reduced training time spamming ruyther. He massed skirms but i just had to me ruyther and won


"such a kind fellow!" ~ ķįŋğ_Ćħŗĩ_ĬĬ

Furby killer should be crowned leader of AOE forum ~ [SW_GD]Teutonic

WH_demoneyekyo
Skirmisher
posted 01-12-06 03:12 PM EDT (US)     2 / 17       
dude, even dragoon beat the crap out of cur.

when people say cur is OP, they r refering its "overall" use as a unit.


Stop spamming! No one care about ur damn post count!
Alex898
Skirmisher
posted 01-12-06 03:31 PM EDT (US)     3 / 17       
yeah dopples and jinetes beat the stuffing out of cuirassiers
stonecold316
Banned
posted 01-12-06 03:42 PM EDT (US)     4 / 17       
Obviously the counter to cavalry will do well against it. The fact of the matter is that cur....sers do well against the majority of units, expecially when backed with skirms so they are so OP
gorbag orc
Skirmisher
posted 01-12-06 03:57 PM EDT (US)     5 / 17       
http://www.agecommunity.com/stats/GameStats.aspx?loc=en-US&GameID=5d303f9c-58f7-eb48-8ff2-bbb73d7be464&m d=ZS_Supremacy

I also discovered this afternoon that Ruyters pwn Cuirassiers. I was playing a 3 vs 3 fight too, I was Dutch together with someone french and british vs. 2 french and a German. Our French teammate could mislead them at the left side of the map and could hold of the enemy for a wile, while I and the british player began attacking at the right/center with quite a mixed force. Then I started making my base behind the enemies walls while he was sending lots of cuirassiers, I made lots of Ruyters and thanks to them I could defeat those cuirassiers and after some trouble (german player came to help the french) I could destroy his cuirassier making stables and destroy him, but meanwhile the other french and german were infiltrating in our own base because they almost defeated our french player, but I could easily, because Ruyters take few pop and cost few, make some ruyters there and force them back and restore the walls so that our french player could build up again, which worked. Then it was 3 vs 2 and the other french enemy's player left while I broke through the germans walls (Nassau halberdiers are also very good siegers!) and defeated the german player and then we won.

It was a very good interesting game, we worked very well together. Sometimes it was a bit risky but we were defenitly stronger. The French players both almost exclusivly made artillery and cuirassiers and my Ruyters prooved to be very succesful against them (Don't forget to let your Ruyters use sabres when attacking artillery!).

Ideal anti-cuirassier/artillery combo: when you keep in mind that you have 50 pop for villies, you have to make 100 Ruyters and back them up with 50 Nassau Halberdiers (so Ruyter : halberdier = around 2 : 1, but sometimes more like 3 : 1). Because Ruyters are worse when in close combat against Cuirassiers (because of area of attack) you need to put some halberdiers in front to hold the Cuirs back, and I tell you that that is a very effective combo. Btw, halberdiers can hold it out much longer than you think in a melee fight against cuirassiers.

Also remember that Ruyter + Halberdier combo is very effective because they both get a Royal Guard upgrade. Also don't forget to upgrade them with every upgrade that is available for them.

Cy Marlayne
Skirmisher
posted 01-12-06 05:27 PM EDT (US)     6 / 17       

Quote:

dude, even dragoon beat the crap out of cur.
when people say cur is OP, they r refering its "overall" use as a unit.

Okay... then how are Cuirassiers OP if Ruyters, Dragoons, Cavalry Archers, Musketeers, Jannisaries, Pikemen, and Halberdiers "beat the crap out of them".

I'm convinced that Cuirassiers aren't OP at all. It's the French economy that's close to OP.


Quote:

depends on upgrades, once my guard halbs and guars ruyther were getting owned by cuirassier it was roughly:
50 halbs + 75 ruyther vs 45 courassier


however in the end i had 4 stables with reduced training time spamming ruyther. He massed skirms but i just had to me ruyther and won

Since I said it was t a 30 min "no attack" game, what do you think? Nearly everything was maxed out.

And I usually have about 6 stables. Four just isn't enough for me.


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[This message has been edited by Cy Marlayne (edited 01-12-2006 @ 05:30 PM).]

Miain
Skirmisher
posted 01-12-06 05:40 PM EDT (US)     7 / 17       
pikemen,halbadiers,muskets,jans don't counter currasiars alone in my game.Are you sure you're playing AoEIII?
Cy Marlayne
Skirmisher
posted 01-12-06 05:46 PM EDT (US)     8 / 17       

Quote:

pikemen,halbadiers,muskets,jans don't counter currasiars alone in my game.Are you sure you're playing AoEIII?

Who said anything about using those units alone?


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Miain
Skirmisher
posted 01-12-06 05:48 PM EDT (US)     9 / 17       
They should be able to beat them alone,they ARE their counter.
Cy Marlayne
Skirmisher
posted 01-12-06 06:01 PM EDT (US)     10 / 17       
I agree that it should be more balanced in the sense that heavy infantry cost-effectively defeat Cuirassiers, which it pretty much is, and when there are, say, 30+ Cuirassiers. They just aren't meant to be countered by infantry alone.

The point is, however, that the French economy should be more raid-friendly. Otherwise you can just expect to see an endless supply of Cuirassiers.

THAT's the problem.


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[This message has been edited by Cy Marlayne (edited 01-12-2006 @ 06:02 PM).]

The_White_Rabbit
Skirmisher
posted 01-12-06 06:09 PM EDT (US)     11 / 17       
The reason your Ruyters countered the Cuirassiers in your 25 minute no-rush game is that the game settings negated the aspects of the cuirs that are overpowered.

Cuirassiers take up a lot of population (3), while the Ruyter takes up only a single population slot. So, with unlimited resources, at maximized population, you can field three times the Ruyters that the French guy can field in Cuirs. Further, because the Dutch have only 50 villagers taking up space, you can field even more Ruyters than the French guy can field cuirs (this benefit is gone for non-Dutch civs, who use pop 2 dragoons and have 99 villagers).

The problem isn't that the cuirassier is not counterable. It is counterable, and not just by ruyters/goons. You can counter with pikes too. The problem is that the cuir is not counterable population and cost-effectively in a game without settings that negate that problem.

Your game settings made it so you could field 150 ruyters against the cuirs, fully upgraded, and with an economy to keep replenishing losses. But in a game where you might be attacked at any time, you will not be able to keep up with the French economy, and so you won't have the ability to field 3 times the ruyters as he fields cuirs, you won't be upgraded, and you won't be able to keep those stables pumping.


Clam_Knight
Skirmisher
posted 01-12-06 06:13 PM EDT (US)     12 / 17       
Cy...how are you going to say that the French economy needs to be more raid friendly, yet play a game where you can't attack till 25 minutes?

"Fool, I have auto-dialing!" -Techno Bill
Cy Marlayne
Skirmisher
posted 01-12-06 06:33 PM EDT (US)     13 / 17       

Quote:

Cy...how are you going to say that the French economy needs to be more raid friendly, yet play a game where you can't attack till 25 minutes?

Lol you guys are making me sound like a big noob... as if I've never played the game with normal settings, which I do more frequently than not.

The purpose of this thread was to say one thing. It's in the title. Ruyters > Cuirassiers.

I know that Cuirassiers are tough. That's a no brainer. I have a French HC too. I know how the French play. I also know that the main strength behind the French is their economy--the fact that 60 Coureurs manning 3 Mill and 3 Plantations can supply the field with what seems an infinite amount of Cuirassiers.

I'm not sitting here blabbing or complaining about Cuirassiers. I know how they work and I know how to counter them. The only problem is that the French are hard to raid in late game when it seems like you have to spend more time worrying about what his army is doing.

That should be a no brainer too. That shouldn't matter if its a 30 min "no attack" game or not. So there's no point in belittling me if I'm stating facts.


Quote:

The reason your Ruyters countered the Cuirassiers in your 25 minute no-rush game is that the game settings negated the aspects of the cuirs that are overpowered.

That's the most obvious part about it... within my circumstances, of course.


Quote:

Cuirassiers take up a lot of population (3), while the Ruyter takes up only a single population slot. So, with unlimited resources, at maximized population, you can field three times the Ruyters that the French guy can field in Cuirs. Further, because the Dutch have only 50 villagers taking up space, you can field even more Ruyters than the French guy can field cuirs (this benefit is gone for non-Dutch civs, who use pop 2 dragoons and have 99 villagers).

I actually didn't have only 50 settlers. The map was Saguenay. The main strength of my late game economy came from the 40 fishing ships that I had out there whaling, plus my 8 banks. My 50 settlers only needed to work on Mills and wood to constantly replenish those resources.

With that said, I could really only have made a total of 110 Ruyters. My Ruyters wasn't what gave me the strength to counter the Cuirassiers, it was my ability to constantly replenish them because of my awesome economy, as you've stated.

That, however, still doesn't go against my point that Ruyters > Cuirassiers. With an army of 50 Ruyters, I could easily destroy an army of 40 Cuirassiers. How? Microing. If that isn't obvious enough...


Quote:

Your game settings made it so you could field 150 ruyters against the cuirs, fully upgraded, and with an economy to keep replenishing losses. But in a game where you might be attacked at any time, you will not be able to keep up with the French economy, and so you won't have the ability to field 3 times the ruyters as he fields cuirs, you won't be upgraded, and you won't be able to keep those stables pumping.

I'm aware of this. That's why I enjoy playing these types of games. It's a good way to practice new tactics, earn massive XP and see a few massive battles instead of many small ones.

I don't knock regular gameplay. As stated above, I play the normal way more often than not. I have great understanding of how the game is played. So again, there is no need to belittle me, I was merely making a statement. I was merely stating that Cuirassiers aren't completely OP. Well, for Dutch anyway. They give me hell as Russians... but that's another story.


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[This message has been edited by Cy Marlayne (edited 01-12-2006 @ 06:36 PM).]

Master Kamst
Skirmisher
posted 01-12-06 09:47 PM EDT (US)     14 / 17       
i agree cy ryters can beat the crap out of cuirassiers dutch are a pretty good counter to frnch
Strong Man
Skirmisher
posted 01-13-06 04:16 AM EDT (US)     15 / 17       
pointless quarrel

as pointless as saying falconet > infantry that means infantry can be erased from aoe3

if you train that many ruyters then other French units may beat them -- a matter of ratio

French can counter with field guns and skirmishers, which are effective together with cuirassiers, better than many (fill in a civ) forces

The_White_Rabbit
Skirmisher
posted 01-13-06 01:35 PM EDT (US)     16 / 17       
I wasn't intending to belittle you, Cy. I was just pointing out that in my opinion it was the settings, and not the Ruyters, that countered the Cuirassier in your game.

Good luck countering 40 cuirs with 50 ruyters. I know it *can* be done, but it is difficult microing and you can't take you eyes off the battle for even one second or all your ruyters are dead.


Cy Marlayne
Skirmisher
posted 01-13-06 01:59 PM EDT (US)     17 / 17       
It's true. I had to support an army of 50 Ruyters for each side of the battlefield because one player was attacking in my ally's base to the South, and the other was attacking in my other ally's base to the North.

It is extremely difficult to micro 50 Ruyters to kill 40 Cuirassiers on two different parts of the map. It forces me to concentrate more on the battle seems to be favoring the enemy.


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