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Age of Empires III Heaven » Forums » General Discussions » most recent Sandyman answers involving mercs
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Topic Subject:most recent Sandyman answers involving mercs
MNBob
Skirmisher
posted 01-12-06 03:40 PM EDT (US)         
1) Why are mercs so powerful?
A – because you can only get a particular type of merc maybe once in a whole game, so they need to be strong enough to make an impact.


2) How do you beat group of 3-4 different type of mercs without getting mercs yourself too?
A – this one is easy. If your opponent has shipped 4 types of mercs, he’s had 4 home city shipments and spent 4800 resources. Logically, you should have 4800 resources to spare, plus 4 third age shipments of your own – typically worth 1000 resources or so. This means you should have around 9000 resources to stop his four merc buckets. Let’s say you’re both French. This means he has 13 swiss pikemen, 12 jaegers, 9 landsknecht, and 8 black riders. With your 9000 resources, you can easily be Fourth Age, upgrade your skirms to Royal Guard, and have 40-50 voltigeurs facing down your enemy’s mercs, most of whom you counter. Will 50 voltigeurs beat all those mercs? Depending on tactical circumstances maybe not, but when the remnants of his merc army stagger into your town you’re STILL 4th Age, and can KEEP producing voltigeurs. His bolt is shot.

That said, there is one big advantage the merc-sending player has – he can pull off his strategy pretty fast. And we are actually investigating that aspect of it. Until we reach final conclusions, though, you’ll have to plan ahead.

5) Are you aware that germans on maps such as great lakes can hide behind three towers, with their free uhlans etc, go FF, and get out a single squad of jeagers/black riders AND THEN GO ON TO WIN EASILY
A – a single squad of jaegers can easily beat you as Russians? Why don’t you go FF, and get out a squad of manchus or highlanders? If he’s building 3 towers, you should have 750 resources more than him.

AuthorReplies:
raaman
Guest
posted 01-12-06 03:43 PM EDT (US)     1 / 26       
Dude it would be sad if black riders and jaegers were taking down your buildings.

;zlskehrt;oaweifalkdjfa;io3
Ceres629
Skirmisher
posted 01-12-06 03:55 PM EDT (US)     2 / 26       

Quote:

A – this one is easy. If your opponent has shipped 4 types of mercs, he’s had 4 home city shipments and spent 4800 resources. Logically, you should have 4800 resources to spare, plus 4 third age shipments of your own – typically worth 1000 resources or so. This means you should have around 9000 resources to stop his four merc buckets. Let’s say you’re both French. This means he has 13 swiss pikemen, 12 jaegers, 9 landsknecht, and 8 black riders. With your 9000 resources, you can easily be Fourth Age, upgrade your skirms to Royal Guard, and have 40-50 voltigeurs facing down your enemy’s mercs, most of whom you counter.

Cause we all know a german merc rusher waits until he amasses 4 merc shipments before he attacks -_-

raaman
Guest
posted 01-12-06 03:57 PM EDT (US)     3 / 26       
Wtf? I thought they did!

;zlskehrt;oaweifalkdjfa;io3
rel4xed
Skirmisher
posted 01-12-06 04:07 PM EDT (US)     4 / 26       

Quote:

5) Are you aware that germans on maps such as great lakes can hide behind three towers, with their free uhlans etc, go FF, and get out a single squad of jeagers/black riders AND THEN GO ON TO WIN EASILY
A – a single squad of jaegers can easily beat you as Russians? Why don’t you go FF, and get out a squad of manchus or highlanders? If he’s building 3 towers, you should have 750 resources more than him.

Bravo Sandy, you said it yourself! Let's skip the colonial age entirely!

Hell. Why did you even put the colonial age in the game?


Greetings, I'm Synthax.
SirKT 2k+ clan
Qazitory
HG Alumnus
posted 01-12-06 04:17 PM EDT (US)     5 / 26       

Quote:

A – a single squad of jaegers can easily beat you as Russians? Why don’t you go FF, and get out a squad of manchus or highlanders

Since when do manchus or highlanders counter jaegers

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DaveTheGreat
Skirmisher
posted 01-12-06 04:26 PM EDT (US)     6 / 26       
Again it sounds like statistical match ups rather than experience.Statisically speaking all of that sounds plausable, however, i can bet 80 million dollars that is not how it goes down in game.
BloTo
Skirmisher
posted 01-12-06 04:32 PM EDT (US)     7 / 26       
sandy has no idea what he is blathering on about in that Q n A, he just useses tedious statistics to justify inbalances. cuirassiers, abuse guns and mercs are not equations to be solved, they are OP and need to be nerfed!
im not even an otto play, yet i have been otto rushed so many times with those damn abuse+jans that im sure i could pull it off and own an es...
there balancing team should just do constant 1v1 quicksearch, play some lamers who exploit abuse or cuirs and see how OP they are. grrr.

WE ARE COMPLAINING FOR A REASON ES. THE WHOLE AOE3 COMMUNITY CANT BE WRONG!

in real game circumstances, falconets are rendered useless vs an otto, 8 veteran abus will kill 2 falconets before they can unpack! sandy seems to be extreemly snotty when answering questions which hint at any imbalance in his beloved game. listen to your fans es, the customer is always right.

who cares that 60 hussars beat 20 cuirs? what does that prove exactly? 60 hussars are 120 pop, that means massing all that food and gold with less than 80 villigars! when will this ever happen in an online game? 20 cuirs, on the other hand cost 60 pop, that means the french can potentionly have 40+ cuirs at once, the courer cap is 80.

the fact of the matter is, this game has serios unbalances in lots of areas, and sandy can scoff as much as he likes, but until i see him play an online quicksearch, i wont be convinced. we all know that testing units per cost proves nothing, there is micro and civ eco strength etc to take into consideration. argh.


Eso: scuzz

[This message has been edited by BloTo (edited 01-12-2006 @ 04:48 PM).]

Diceclock
Skirmisher
posted 01-12-06 04:39 PM EDT (US)     8 / 26       
Their idea of balance in AoE3 is putting the gamebox on their head while chugging a beer.
schildpad
Skirmisher
posted 01-12-06 05:05 PM EDT (US)     9 / 26       
if you would balance the game otto and french would be really UP.

Quote:

How do you beat group of 3-4 different type of mercs


thats the question so he answers that question. First read the question before flaming the answer

really before you use the post function first calm down


"such a kind fellow!" ~ ķįŋğ_Ćħŗĩš_ĬĬ

Furby killer should be crowned leader of AOE forum ~ [SW_GD]Teutonic

MindMeddler
Skirmisher
posted 01-12-06 05:05 PM EDT (US)     10 / 26       

Quote:

Since when do manchus or highlanders counter jaegers

Well, Russian cossacks seem to get the job done. Still, I prefer oprichnik raiding.

Quote:

listen to your fans es, the customer is always right.

They have a choice between listening to noobs or listening to pros like the Sheriff

tster123
Skirmisher
posted 01-12-06 05:06 PM EDT (US)     11 / 26       
Bloto, you are really sounding like an idiot. sandy is on the balance team and I'm sure he plays the game. also where is all this information about them testing balance with hundreds of units coming from. all of a sudder you people have lost it going on about how they test 100 of unit A against 150 unit B, but I don't know where you got it from.


the worst thing that ever happened to business is the phase "the customer is always right." modern paradigm is that the customer knows what they want, the business needs to educate them as to what is best to suit their particular needs. as you can see, this is far different from the customer being right. if a customer, whom I know to be extremely diabetic, comes into my restaurant and orders a dish that contains a good deal of sugar, should I just serve them because he is a customer and he is always right? Hell no, that's practically murder, or at least manslaughter, is he dies. I would simply inform him that that dish has sugar in it and I would suggest a differnt dish.

[This message has been edited by tster123 (edited 01-12-2006 @ 05:10 PM).]

lemuri
Skirmisher
posted 01-12-06 05:10 PM EDT (US)     12 / 26       

Quote:

Their idea of balance in AoE3 is putting the gamebox on their head while chugging a beer.

lmao

hyperbolic I'm sure, but funny nonetheless


"War does not determine who is right, only who is left" -- B Russell
Thunder
VIP BonusXP
posted 01-12-06 05:19 PM EDT (US)     13 / 26       
...and fans wonder why more developers don't post in the forums.

Sandy is answering the questions asked, that's it. A lot of players read into that and come to the conclusion that we don't think Abus Guns or mercs are a problem. That's not the case. The nerf stick is out and the balance team is testing a variety of changes.

gunner1
Scenario Expert
posted 01-12-06 05:24 PM EDT (US)     14 / 26       
i think we should report sandy to es for missing playtests. he seems to have no grasp of the most standard game aspects and obvios counters in game. his answers are all based on paper. its one thing to read game manuals and strats for 10hours and another to play it for that long. my evidence is backed up by the things said in the post. i don't thing hes even red the paper right beacause jagears counter highlanders. he says that the enemy has 750 res less but you probobly have 5+vils less from not protecting your vils from those unlans raids.
somebody make sandy play te game or give the expert players at es the job of q&a's.

Scenarios I have made
Single Player-: CAMPAIGN - Christmas - Forest River RPG - Total Freedom
MultiPlayer-: Castle Blood Automatic - Mafia Hitman - Warrior Defence
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[This message has been edited by gunner1 (edited 01-12-2006 @ 05:26 PM).]

Ender_Ward
Skirmisher
posted 01-12-06 06:37 PM EDT (US)     15 / 26       

Quote:


a single squad of jaegers can easily beat you as Russians? Why don’t you go FF, and get out a squad of manchus or highlanders? If he’s building 3 towers, you should have 750 resources more than him.

He's suggesting to counter Jaegers with Highlanders and Manchu?!
You mean I need to use the units that Jaegers are designed to counter?

Oh yeah, he totally plays this game.

/sarcasm


"One wants to be loved, failing that admired, failing that feared, failing that hated and despised. One wants to instill in other people some form of emotion. The soul shudders before emptiness and wants contact, no matter the cost."
Elpea
Hal
(id: lp_usa)
posted 01-12-06 06:47 PM EDT (US)     16 / 26       

Quote:

...and fans wonder why more developers don't post in the forums.


I wish more playtesters posted on the forums, to be honest. Developers are great at what they do, making the game fun. But playtesters are the balancers, I don't see why developers are answering balance questions =\.

raaman
Guest
posted 01-12-06 06:57 PM EDT (US)     17 / 26       
^^ Wasn't sandyman supposed to manage the balance team?

;zlskehrt;oaweifalkdjfa;io3
Echoic
Skirmisher
posted 01-12-06 07:13 PM EDT (US)     18 / 26       
I really wish people would just give them a break. 90% of the games released out there there is NO communication at ALL. Period, that's all there is to it. Would you like that here? I would really, really hate to see a great game ruined by absolutely no communication with the player base. Anyone play Socom III?

It really makes me mad that ES tries to communicate, even if you disagree and we have people like Bloto giving them crap for it. It's not as bad here as it is at agecommunity, but it's still here.

Disagreeing is fine, but do it constructively, not "OMGLOL SANDE DOESN'T PALY THE GAME!! moran!!"

(this is mostly directed at the past sandyman thread I read here as well about cuirs)

Agecommunity is the worst. I don't read those forums just because they irritate me.

[This message has been edited by Echoic (edited 01-12-2006 @ 07:18 PM).]

Thunder
VIP BonusXP
posted 01-12-06 07:25 PM EDT (US)     19 / 26       
Elpea - I hear ya, but it's generally the game designers that make the call on what changes to make...so I think it's great that they come in to the forums to feel the heat.
Elpea
Hal
(id: lp_usa)
posted 01-12-06 07:43 PM EDT (US)     20 / 26       
I just feel sorry for Sandyman really, when he makes comments that most of us find absurd, probably due to his unique perspective being a developer and not a playtester .

Like Matei commented on his thread at AgeCommunity. In a real game, skirmishers and Abus Guns are *far* more effective than in data. They shoot, pull out, shoot again. That strategy can take out plenty of cav before they get close for the kill. That is a *very* powerful strategy that make skirmishers far more effective than data can tell him =\.

I hope he can take the "heat" and still like to post on the forums in the future, so we don't lose developer support .


MosheLevi
Scenario Contest Winner
posted 01-12-06 07:49 PM EDT (US)     21 / 26       

Quote:

it's great that they come in to the forums to feel the heat

Thunder,

I don’t think it’s that bad.

Players often get frustrated and become emotional, but it does not mean they don’t like the game, or don’t appreciate your work.

Besides, IMO such frustration builds up due to luck of communication between the software developer and the fans.
More involvement from Ensemble in forums could ease much of the frustration that players have.
That is because many times players are frustrated for not knowing what Ensemble thinks or going to do about a specific issue.
I understand that more involvement in forums is time consuming, but imo it would pay off.

bigRed
Skirmisher
posted 01-12-06 07:53 PM EDT (US)     22 / 26       
Actually he's NOT suggesting that you counter Jaegers with Highlanders. He's suggesting that you counter Black Riders with Highlanders. That's very good advice. If you're gonna criticize him, at least read what he says.

You can't really beat mercs with normal age3 units per cost, and nobody is gonna wait until they amass four merc bands before attacking, so you won't be able to tech up to guard units.

Ender_Ward
Skirmisher
posted 01-12-06 10:19 PM EDT (US)     23 / 26       

Quote:


Actually he's NOT suggesting that you counter Jaegers with Highlanders. He's suggesting that you counter Black Riders with Highlanders. That's very good advice. If you're gonna criticize him, at least read what he says.

Actually, he is suggesting exactly that. There is no mention of Black Riders in the answer below.

Here, to make it easier, Sandy's answer:

"a single squad of jaegers can easily beat you as Russians? Why don’t you go FF, and get out a squad of manchus or highlanders? If he’s building 3 towers, you should have 750 resources more than him."

Perhaps it isn't me who needs to re-read what he said?

But let's, for the moment, assume that he meant for the player to counter the Jaegers + Black Riders combo (as the original question asks) with Manchu + Highlanders. Now, who here wants to bet on the Manchu + Highlanders winning (assuming the players' skill level isn't too far apart)? Not me, I'm putting my money on the Jaegers and Black Riders any day.
Manchu + Highlander is stil bad advice.


"One wants to be loved, failing that admired, failing that feared, failing that hated and despised. One wants to instill in other people some form of emotion. The soul shudders before emptiness and wants contact, no matter the cost."

[This message has been edited by Ender_Ward (edited 01-12-2006 @ 10:20 PM).]

Ceres629
Skirmisher
posted 01-12-06 11:02 PM EDT (US)     24 / 26       

Quote:

a single squad of jaegers can easily beat you as Russians? Why don’t you go FF, and get out a squad of manchus or highlanders? If

I think sandy's trying to say that if you go manchus and highlanders you will get beaten even easier!

At least i hope thats what he meant because his suggestion of countering jagers with manchus and highlanders is LOL of the highest degree.

In a blackrider/jaeger vs higglander/manchu battle, the winner is so obvious. A noob could probably just attack move the BR/Jaeger group and own the highlander/manchu group even if the guy micros.

[This message has been edited by Ceres629 (edited 01-12-2006 @ 11:04 PM).]

ES_DeathShrimp
VIP
posted 01-13-06 06:07 PM EDT (US)     25 / 26       
In the name of clarity...

In Microsoft parlance, a "developer" is a programmer.

In the game industry, "developer" generally refers to "the guys who actually made the game" as apposed to the marketing or QA department (though the latter are sometimes considered part of the team).

Ensemble doesn't employ professional playtesters who only play the game. When we talk about playtesters, we generally mean the ES team, because we all play the game and offer feedback to the designers on everything from fun to confusion to balance.

We do work with a large group of QA testers (who are mostly Microsoft and not Ensemble employees), but they are looking for bugs in the game and generally not play balance. (Though we do try and listen to their gameplay feedback when they have it.)

Balance is the responsibility of the balance team, who are considered part of the design department. The balance team members are expert players who also have a really good grasp of the kinds of problems and solutions one might encounter in an AOE game. They are also very active in the community and on ESO. They have friends and other expert players that they stay in communication with as a reality check for their own conclusions.

Guys like Sandy and myself are lead designers. We aren't on the balance team per se (we're not good enough), but we are in very close communication with those guys. We watch each other play games and we sit around and discuss what changes to make. When we make a change, the team is nearly always in agreement, and if the change isn't a good one, we evaluate and make more changes.

You may not agree with the balance decisions we make sometimes, but it is inaccurate to assume that Sandy is out of the loop.

rippy
Skirmisher
posted 01-13-06 06:33 PM EDT (US)     26 / 26       
Let's put it this way: no matter what you do, no matter how you balance the game, you CAN'T win. Noone is ever satisfied.

I'm not saying there aren't problems with the game now, but seriously. Give the guys a break. They have functional brains like the rest of us, if a bunch of teenagers can figure out what's OP and UP, than they can too.


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