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Age of Empires III Heaven » Forums » General Discussions » Abuse Guns to be Nerfed in patch
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Topic Subject:Abuse Guns to be Nerfed in patch
Diceclock
Skirmisher
posted 01-12-06 05:14 PM EDT (US)         
Deathshrimp:

Quote:

I do think Abus Guns are too difficult to counter right now, and is likely something we'll change...

AuthorReplies:
majpain
Skirmisher
posted 01-12-06 05:17 PM EDT (US)     1 / 24       
Thunder
VIP BonusXP
posted 01-12-06 05:21 PM EDT (US)     2 / 24       
Nerf majpain.
Ceres629
Skirmisher
posted 01-12-06 05:23 PM EDT (US)     3 / 24       

Quote:

I do think Abus Guns are too difficult to counter right now, and is likely something we'll change...

gg ottos. I await the nerfage.

Diceclock
Skirmisher
posted 01-12-06 05:24 PM EDT (US)     4 / 24       
Why would they need 10 speed with their new teleport ability?

[This message has been edited by Diceclock (edited 01-12-2006 @ 05:27 PM).]

Miain
Skirmisher
posted 01-12-06 05:31 PM EDT (US)     5 / 24       
Just to mock their enemies
raaman
Guest
posted 01-12-06 05:38 PM EDT (US)     6 / 24       
They don't need speed when they have those sabers they pull out and smash through inf and cav.

;zlskehrt;oaweifalkdjfa;io3
Miain
Skirmisher
posted 01-12-06 05:52 PM EDT (US)     7 / 24       
Are they lightsabres?Red ones?with 15splash damage?
Ender_Ward
Skirmisher
posted 01-12-06 06:03 PM EDT (US)     8 / 24       
I wonder how many people realise that an Ottoman player doesn't actually need Abus Guns for his early rush, unless he's playing:

A. Another Ottoman.
B. French with early Skirmishers.
C. Dutch.

An Ottoman player can knock out civs other than those above simply with masses of Janissaries and some Grenadiers before 6:45.

Janissaries laugh at Crossbows and Longbows, as these units can't hit 'n run as you just press the Janissaries right into their face.

Abus Guns are horrible vs villagers (in the actual proto file, they have 0.25x multiplier against them), pretty bad vs buildings (15 seige is nothing) and decent vs cavalry if ignored (if not, they're dead). If not for the ability to hit villagers while staying outside TC/Outpost firing range, there would be no reason to make them early at all. But even so, another 10 Janissaries will simply take down those Outposts and then the TC, with alittle help from their Grenadier friends.

So that typical "10 Jannisary & 5 Abus Guns" so called rush, is actually significantly worse than a 20 Janissary + 3 Hussar "rush" at the same point or 30 seconds later. By making those 5 Abuse Guns, you're sinking 250 food and 500 gold into something that really doesn't help you all that much to knock your opponent out.
You need seige power, as much of it as early as possible. But you also need protection from cavalry. The Janissary + Grenadier combination in a 3:1 ratio is perfect for that.

All you need is 20 Jannissary and 5-10 Grenadiers by 6:00 to help take down the TC before your opponent (usually Spanish or German) successfully gets to Fortress. Abus Guns don't even enter the equation until much later, when people bring out light infantry Mercs and Falconets.

So nerfing Abuse Guns will make Ottomans weaker in the mid-late game, but it will barely even affect their rush, unless they're fighting French, Dutch or another Ottoman.


"One wants to be loved, failing that admired, failing that feared, failing that hated and despised. One wants to instill in other people some form of emotion. The soul shudders before emptiness and wants contact, no matter the cost."

[This message has been edited by Ender_Ward (edited 01-12-2006 @ 06:04 PM).]

Flammifer
Kings Guard
posted 01-12-06 06:11 PM EDT (US)     9 / 24       
The thing about abus is the range. It's the same as a longbow (22). Compare this to xbows at 16 and muskets at 12.

Even if the jans and abus just bunch up together a player atempting to kill the jans with xbows or muskets will get shot to peices by the abus even before engaging. Hussars won't be cost effective as they take some damage from the abus but also from the jans before possibly getting the abus in melee.

If you don't have skirms or lbows with range 20 and 22 then your only real hope is that the otto screwed up or you simple overwelm him.


NerVe Clan
SMF AoE3 Recorded Game Data Mod
icq: 118526591 «¦¤¦» msn: theflammifer@hotmail.com

[This message has been edited by Flammifer (edited 01-12-2006 @ 06:13 PM).]

Ceres629
Skirmisher
posted 01-12-06 09:07 PM EDT (US)     10 / 24       

Quote:

An Ottoman player can knock out civs other than those above simply with masses of Janissaries and some Grenadiers before 6:45.

lol if ottos didn't have abuse guns they would suck so bad even ports would beat them.

Scotty the Fallen
Skirmisher
posted 01-12-06 10:07 PM EDT (US)     11 / 24       
Maybe its their range that gets to people, as no unit short of a building can outrange them. Maybe if it's -4 range that would suffice. If not: NERF AWAY

Scotty the Fallen | One-time Angel Reincarnate, and Former BFME2H and TWH Downloads administrator, and BFME2 Strategy Administrator.
"And I shall go softly into the night, taking my dreams, as will you." - EoJ
"Scotty's probably the only forumer here who can make every post a defiant claim of his own superiority." - Atzy
Ender_Ward
Skirmisher
posted 01-12-06 10:07 PM EDT (US)     12 / 24       

Quote:


lol if ottos didn't have abuse guns they would suck so bad even ports would beat them.

How?

Janissaries > all Age 2 heavy infantry and age 2 Cavalry
Grenadiers > Crossbows & Longbows

What can Spanish, German, Portuguese, Russian and British do to 20 Janissaries, 10 Grenadiers and 3 Hussars at 5:45 - 6:15?

If the enemy towers up, that force is adjusted to 10-12 Janissary, 15 Grenadier and 3 Hussars.

It hits before even the fastest possible Fast Fortress. The true danger of the Ottoman rush comes not from Abus Guns, but from how early that attack comes, how powerful and cost efficient Janissaries are, and how well they protect the usually very vulnerable Grenadiers.

Note that I'm excluding the French, Dutch and other Ottomans from this, because their age2 Skirmishers/Abus Guns do eat Janissaries for lunch. But the other civs will stil suffer.



"One wants to be loved, failing that admired, failing that feared, failing that hated and despised. One wants to instill in other people some form of emotion. The soul shudders before emptiness and wants contact, no matter the cost."
Ceres629
Skirmisher
posted 01-12-06 10:12 PM EDT (US)     13 / 24       

Quote:

How?

Janissaries > all Age 2 heavy infantry and age 2 Cavalry
Grenadiers > Crossbows & Longbows

I could FF and actually stand a chance.

Ender_Ward
Skirmisher
posted 01-12-06 10:24 PM EDT (US)     14 / 24       
Janissaries (15-20) and Grenadiers (5-10) drop houses and then the TC frighteningly fast. And they do it before 6:30. It would take a very good player to survive it (and ironically, Portuguese would have the best chance, as even if their first TC goes down, they have another).
So let's say you could do it, Ceres. What are the rest of us intermidiate players supposed to do? Stick to French, Ottoman and Dutch? That'll get boring fast, not being able to play the other civs, or having to cancel quickmatch anytime we see an Ottoman player.

"One wants to be loved, failing that admired, failing that feared, failing that hated and despised. One wants to instill in other people some form of emotion. The soul shudders before emptiness and wants contact, no matter the cost."
Ceres629
Skirmisher
posted 01-12-06 11:05 PM EDT (US)     15 / 24       

Quote:

Stick to French, Ottoman and Dutch? That'll get boring fast, not being able to play the other civs, or having to cancel quickmatch anytime we see an Ottoman player.

thats what the majority of people on ESO do anyway!

Oh and Longbows > grenadiers.

[This message has been edited by Ceres629 (edited 01-12-2006 @ 11:06 PM).]

TheZappa
Skirmisher
posted 01-13-06 00:12 AM EDT (US)     16 / 24       
Yeah longbows ruin grenaders. I think though that the otto grenade rush will just replace abus gun rushing and with enough good players doing it they will probably make it very powerfull. However..i doubt it will ever be as powerfull as abus gun rushing is now.

Grenaders do well vs xbows but vs skirms if you split them up well so the area damage doesnt do as much and just focus fire them on each gren you can beat any early rush. Add in minutemen and towers and you can easily defend. Ofcourse cavalry >> grenaders but thats about the same as abus guns. Also ..not to sure but i think grens die quick to any infanty who is meeling them.

Will nerfing abus guns ruing otto rushing..hell no..they will still be the best or one of the best at doing it..but theres nothing wrong with that. I think however it will make rushing harder..it is amazingly simple how easy it is to pull of a otto rush atm.

NemesisHunter
Skirmisher
posted 01-13-06 00:51 AM EDT (US)     17 / 24       
You guys are acting like the nerf will make these units useless. Why would they nerf them THAT much? I'm sure they're still gonna play a part in a otto rush and they'll still pown infantry, albeit not so hard.
ummBeefy
Skirmisher
posted 01-13-06 01:27 AM EDT (US)     18 / 24       
Maybe now for 400 gold falconets will be able to kill them.
nidhog_slayer
Skirmisher
posted 01-13-06 07:35 AM EDT (US)     19 / 24       
yep... true... peoples are thinkin like 1.04 would make game all over new and ottoman&french being most UP civs in game, and then they are waiting for über fixes what they are not going to get and then get disapointed to patch.
Diceclock
Skirmisher
posted 01-13-06 09:16 AM EDT (US)     20 / 24       
Maybe they'll move them to Fortress age, but leave them as is.

I'm excited. I love seeing a guys who obviously never play Dutch, and just run the Jans into my base. My Skirms are never so happy.

Ender_Ward
Skirmisher
posted 01-13-06 10:06 AM EDT (US)     21 / 24       

Quote:


Oh and Longbows > grenadiers.

Well alone, ofcourse. But if you "sandwitch" the Longbows between your Janissaries and Grenadiers, they die, fast.

The big problem with Longbows and Crossbows is that unlike Cassadors/Skirmishers, they cannot hit and run against pushing forces due their equal speed with the attackers.
Indeed, a few times I made my British opponent make the choice between staying in range of the Grenadiers and letting the Janissaries get in range, or falling back (outside of the town even) to get out of range of the Janissaries, and thus not being able to stop the Grenadiers from taking down Houses/TC.

This is harder, though, against the smarter British players who sacrifice Muskets as meatshields, to buy time for the Longbows to fire away unscathed. It makes me divert Grenadiers from taking down buildings to taking down the Muskets, which slows House/TC destruction time.



"One wants to be loved, failing that admired, failing that feared, failing that hated and despised. One wants to instill in other people some form of emotion. The soul shudders before emptiness and wants contact, no matter the cost."

[This message has been edited by Ender_Ward (edited 01-13-2006 @ 10:07 AM).]

TheUnknown3dfx
Skirmisher
posted 01-13-06 10:43 AM EDT (US)     22 / 24       
I only played once an ottoman in a 1v1 in supremacy, mistake I will not make again, before I had anything important to defend, there he was with a formidable army, my whole town gone in seconds... now I do press the cancel buton if I see an Ottoman.
EmpofKilling
Skirmisher
posted 01-13-06 02:30 PM EDT (US)     23 / 24       
Well.. Look at the range.. lol 5 Abus gun will actually EASY take down Villager.. Their rate of Fire + Range is to Uber..
Ender_Ward
Skirmisher
posted 01-13-06 02:45 PM EDT (US)     24 / 24       

Quote:


lol 5 Abus gun will actually EASY take down Villager

In three volleys. Abus guns have a 0.25x penalty to villagers, so an unupgraded Abus Gun does 10 damage to them. Villagers have 150 hitpoints.

If the opponent is paying attention, he'll move/garrison the villager before it can be killed.

The only reason to use Abus Guns against Villagers is if the enemy got a whole bunch of Outposts up, and it's not cost efficient to go in there before you make some Grenadiers. But you stil want to disrupt some, so you maneuver around the base, catching stragglers with the Abus Guns. But other than that, Janissaries, Grenadiers and Hussars kill villagers way better. For example, you only need 7 Janissaries to one shot kill a Villager.


"One wants to be loved, failing that admired, failing that feared, failing that hated and despised. One wants to instill in other people some form of emotion. The soul shudders before emptiness and wants contact, no matter the cost."
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