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Age of Empires III Heaven » Forums » General Discussions » Dutch pikeman/grenadier rush
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Topic Subject:Dutch pikeman/grenadier rush
xentelian
Skirmisher
posted 02-05-06 01:52 PM EDT (US)         
OK, since dutch are the only civ that get a pikeman hc card in colonial AND can build artillery depot in colonial...

would it be a decent strat?

Would it be better just to go with a crapload of pikeman, as I am sure the odd spanish player does, or would it be better to ship pikeman card, build art depot and pump out as many grenadiers as possible?

Dutch's heavy reliance on gold and the cost of banks I just don't know if grenadier is any more feasible than straight pikemen. Except for the damage area grenadiers do, they are pretty even once you consider cost, hp, attack, minutemen bonus vs siege (gren) units, gren's 50% range armor. Pike in cover mode do 16 damage / second to building, and grens do 18.

AuthorReplies:
StonewallJ
Seraph Emeritus
(id: Conquistador34)
posted 02-05-06 01:55 PM EDT (US)     1 / 14       
Well, Spanish get a pike card, and Russia can build an artillery foundation, others have this too.

I would add about 5 skirms too.

someone did this to me while I was ff and won


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ultimitsu
Skirmisher
posted 02-05-06 02:09 PM EDT (US)     2 / 14       
problem is affording it, dutch has about the weakest economy in the game in age2. so anything that you can afford, your opp can afford something better.

plus dutch dont really get anything particularly great, skirm < abus, free uhlan, cossack, cheap strelets, longbow,

CK the Fat
Skirmisher
posted 02-05-06 02:16 PM EDT (US)     3 / 14       
It would be hard to try and gather all that food and gold while still having a safe backup economy.

"Republicans who did not play the patronage game were ridiculed as the Mugwumps for sitting on the fence--their "mugs" on one side of the fence and "wumps" on the other. Historians generally consider this era a low point in American politics."--United States History by John J. Newman and John M. Schmalbach
xentelian
Skirmisher
posted 02-05-06 03:04 PM EDT (US)     4 / 14       
Yeah, I think Spanish pikeman rush would be best as far as any kind of early infantry siege. (non native that is)
Problem is, you know they start with heavy infantry and you can plainly see when someone builds a teepee (pun intended) or what they have for a deck.

I am trying to perfect a colonial rush without the predictability factor. I think pikeman is pretty much the only way, although cavalry are damned good for raiding early even if only to slow the enemy advance to merc, uh I mean fortress age.

ca_aok
Skirmisher
posted 02-05-06 03:06 PM EDT (US)     5 / 14       

Quote:

AND can build artillery depot in colonial...

Russians and ottomans? (In fact anyone with Grenadiers I think).

Grens are also a ton more expensive than pikes, but they're better v.s. units you're more likely to find in their base (pikes/xbows). However the dutch aren't really geared towards raiding, they're simply too slow at it.


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Senor Bobbers
Skirmisher
posted 02-05-06 08:38 PM EDT (US)     6 / 14       

Quote:

Russians and ottomans?

Russians and ottomans don't get pikemen hc cards. Heck they dont get those units at all. Xentelian said dutch is only civ that has a pikeman HC card AND (he emphasized his point with the capitalization) are able to build an age 2 artillery foundry, read things more carefully.

Ofaloaf
Skirmisher
posted 02-05-06 09:37 PM EDT (US)     7 / 14       
What about brits? Don't they have artillery foundry in age 2? I know they've got pikemen and grenadier cards.
Diceclock
Skirmisher
posted 02-05-06 09:48 PM EDT (US)     8 / 14       
I tried it out. With a 17 Vil Colonial and forward built Foundry, I got 5 Grens in at 7:25, 5 more by 8:00, Pikes by 8:30. TC dropped about 8:45.

This is vs. the computer mind you, but somebody with no Rax built and light on the military shipments may not be able to react in time.

Take 700 Gold, 8 Pikes, 600 Gold, and you could hit Fortress button about 10:00. Put some vils on wood during age up, cause you'll be out or short.

Plebus
Pharaolympics 2000 Competitor
posted 02-05-06 10:39 PM EDT (US)     9 / 14       
Do it only when you want to and are SURE it will kill your opponent with this kind of rush(means either your opponent is dumb or following a set BO like FF),otherwise you'll be left with a crappy economy and a bunch of(if there are any still alive) almost useless units.As people said,dutch is not good at rushing due to their slow start(gold villager- but I believe still way better than Ports).

If you want to rush,do it quick,a "rush" after 7 or even 8 usually can easily be repelled if your opponent is not very dumb and don't know scouting at all.This means you should avoid those "standard" build like 17 villagers in discovery...you should use something like Skewer build(posted by jaafit,you can search and find it in strategy centrl)...there is no balance(want to have decent eco and can recover decently from a failed rush) for a dutch who are trying to rush.

Diceclock
Skirmisher
posted 02-05-06 10:47 PM EDT (US)     10 / 14       
I think a 15 Vil start would work better than a Skewer, because of the wood cost. Remember 10 Grens is 20 Pop. The loss of Food wouldn't help either.

But I don't know for sure, I didn't try that opening.

Gold Rust
Skirmisher
posted 02-05-06 11:09 PM EDT (US)     11 / 14       
Russians dont get pikes, but I like to do a nader/infantry rush by forward building blockhouses and an art foundary, then attacking consistantly with armies of about 5 naders, 10 strelets and 10 musketeers.
TheZappa
Skirmisher
posted 02-05-06 11:20 PM EDT (US)     12 / 14       
russian one is slightly better because you can get in there faster..altho u lose to cavalry fairly easily unless u put muskets in there aswell.

It could possible, like all rushes, work vs a FF but like the russian one its very risky and if you dont get there TC down you are pretty well screwed.

The Bob
Skirmisher
posted 02-06-06 02:37 AM EDT (US)     13 / 14       

Quote:

I tried it out. With a 17 Vil Colonial and forward built Foundry, I got 5 Grens in at 7:25, 5 more by 8:00, Pikes by 8:30. TC dropped about 8:45.

TC would have to drop around 7 mins to counter a decent ff

Earl Samsca
Skirmisher
posted 02-06-06 06:22 AM EDT (US)     14 / 14       
My method would be, as a twist on the Skirm Scewer strat:

make 2 villagers (however much initial gold stocks permit) build a house or two (depending on initial wood) and then send everyone onto food, age up as quickly as possible with 500 food politician and send 300 wood card. You should probably begin aging up under 2 minutes to get there at about 3.10 or so. This makes it painfully obvious what your doing.. but its the only way to get the time required.

You will need 30 pop for 9 villagers, 8 pikes and 5 Grens (Although, if you can get the grens out building before the 8 pikes, then you will just have 27/20) but I tend to think you should have extra pop room for making more grenadiers as time permits. But.. in terms of pure efficiency it might not be worth it.

So at age up stick everyone onto gold after collecting 100 extra food and send one villager to forward build the artillery range. Queue 5 grens and then send the pikeshipment as soon as possible. Split once you have 600 food/300 gold probably to 5 on food 4 on gold.

Even at this speed, you probably wont be hitting them before 5.30-6, and that FF upgrade will likely have been hit. However if you quickly kill a house, drive everyone inside the TC and he cannot call militia for resource constraints, then you should bring his TC down with 8 pikemen, 5 grenadiers.

For an extra twist, you might want to send your minutemen along. 150 food and gold may well be in your grasp and while they shall have low health (if any), 6 firing at once packs a reasonable punch on villagers and minutemen alike.

The obvious problem with this is its very obvious what your doing. However if you age up with a normal 4 minute build, you wont hit his town untill 6.30+ and at that point he will be very close to fortress age if its a traditional FF. If you delay for a second batch of Grens the same is true.

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