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Age of Empires III Heaven » Forums » General Discussions » Analyse Of The Dutch Economy... Explained!
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Topic Subject:Analyse Of The Dutch Economy... Explained!
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RarecuT
Skirmisher
posted 02-17-06 11:39 AM EDT (US)         
Right to start off most of the maths in this thread are based on others findings as it has been a long time since I have strained my mathematical ability. Dutch are unique as they are the only civilisation that bases their economy on gold instead of food. Let us take a closer look at Dutch's economical aspects:

- Villager's cost gold.
- 50 Villager limit.
- Can build banks that generate gold at 2.6/sec (350f/350w).
- 8 Bank limit.
- 50 extra pop cap for military.

At first glance, it seems that replacing villager's with banks, allowing the Dutch to field a larger army is a great bonus. This is until we focus on the drawbacks that make this possible. As later calculations will show there is no free population space, any civilisation can stop expanding their economy at a breaking point which will draw them level or above the Dutch gathering capabilities. To keep things simple all the comparisons are based on normal settlers. Ottoman's slower economy is supposedly balanced with a stronger military and French settler's will prove even more efficient than gold villager's.

BUILDING VILLAGERS

Apart from Ottoman and French, every other civilisation excluding Dutch pays 100f for settlers. Dutch pay the equivalent but in the form of gold. The basic gathering rates of a single villager collecting food and gold are roughly:

FOOD - (Huntable) ~ 0.78/sec
GOLD - (Gold Mine) ~ 0.60/sec

So in terms of expanding each economy, it takes this long for a villager to gather enough resources for another villager:

0.78 x 129 Seconds = 100.62 Food
0.60 x 167 Seconds = 100.2 Gold

This roughly leaves 40 seconds or so difference which can depend on many factors such as walking time, distance away from TC, distance to the next source etc. However from this we can see that food is already much more efficient for the basis of an economy. Faster queuing of villager's and the larger abundance of food on the map plays a great part in seperating both economies.

Food also can be herded closer to the TC while gold mines are not always next to the town center. Assuming there are at least 8 huntables in a herd that works out as:

8 x 400 = 3200 Food; whereas gold mines are only 2000 gold. So we can take it for granted that expanding a food economy will be much quicker than the gold one. If games were an all out boom, that is another 12 villager's more and much faster. Although currently the game is all about Age3 FF and getting access to more powerful units, though still it shows the food civ will continue to expand much quicker.

BANKS

It is obvious from the overlook that the Dutch gold economy is lacking due to gather rate and the sparseness of gold mines nearby increasing villager travel time. I believe this is where banks come in to reduce the gap between the two economies.

The food economy already has the advantage with:

- Faster queuing.
- Quicker gather rates.
- More food on the map that can be manipulated (moved).

Banks make up for:

- The lack of nearby mines, allowing for a constant supply of gold.
- Closes the gap on the number of villager's produced in the food economy, as banks count as 4 villager's built at once.
- Increases the Dutch's gold gathering capabilities.

This makes perfect sense now as banks were intended to help the Dutch catch up due to the lower gathering rate of gold. At the same time, giving the civilisation some uniqueness and distinct advantages including:

- Constant unraidable gold supply (artillery doesn't raid).
- Only civ with a gold based economy.
- Field larger armies late game with a bigger military pop available.

BANK STATISTICS

Now lets take a look at some of the stats of banks to help us understand how well banks allow Dutch to close the gap on food fueled economies. The gather rate of banks is 2.6g/sec which roughly translated is 4 villager's gathering gold from a mine with the first gold upgrade.

Here are the settings for both scenarios:

~ Bank

2.6 x 60 Seconds = 156 Gold/min

~ 4 Villager's (1st Upgrade)

0.66 x 60 Seconds = 158.4 Gold/min

There isn't much difference between the two. Let us just say the extra 2 Gold/min is traded for a safe, constant supply which is certainly an effective tradeoff. Now for the setup costs (using the total resources as the comparison):

~ Bank

350f/350w = 700 resources.

Build Time = < 25 Seconds

~ 4 Villager's

400f + 150 Upgrade = 550 Resources

Build Time = 25 Seconds/Villager

Ok, so with 150 resources setup difference let us look at some calculations to show how long each method takes to become profitable, taking into account the benefits a bank brings to counter the bigger cost and higher gathering time for the wood. As I want to keep the comparison simple we will look at the total of gathered resources to match the cost of setup:

~ Bank

156/min x 4.5 Minutes = 702 Gold

~ 4 Villager's

158.4/min x 3.5 Minutes = 554.4 Gold
158.4/min x 4.5 Minutes = 712 Gold

So if you can take better care of your settler's, the cheaper setup will bring in more benefits than building a bank. Taking the 150 resources extra to get the bank and the 150 or so extra gathered makes 300 resources extra for the food economy player to spend to their advantage. FF strategies further increase this advantage as raiding is rare to non existent/effective early on and the game is about shipping units and clashing in a battle.

This makes 8 banks x 300 = 2400 resources extra for them to spend if the Dutch player goes on to build the full limit of banks. So with the current trend of gameplay Dutch are falling behind majorly. This is where shipments again play an even more important part as the food economy speeds past the gold economy.

To get access to 99 villager's there is only an original cost and housing cost. You get 4 banks to build to begin with then have to use 3 shipments to access the other 4 and also sacrifice military speed for a +2 bank limit from the church. Again to the age of FF, you won't be building more then 1-2 banks in Colonial before advancing to even stand a chance of competing with an eqully skilled player, who is putting to good use the extra resources he has with his faster, more efficent food economy and better more poweful shipments.

SHIPMENTS

As the game is currently all about using free shipments to beat your opponent, speed is key combined with a weak economy to get access to these shipments quickly. Dutch economy falls down even more as they have to use 3 of these shipments just to enable them to maximise their economy even before the cost. So you have used 2 banks at most in Colonial. This means the 3 cards you will use are the equivalent of Age3 shipments. You could even say banks 7-8 are Age4 shipments which completely annihilates the Dutch economy. For arguements sake lets say they are Age3 shipments. For simplicity I will calculate the extra advantage as resource shipments.

Age3

3 x 1000 resource cards = 3000!

Age3+4

1 x 1000 resource card = 1000
2 x 1600 resource card = 3200
Setup cost difference = 2400

This added to the deficit from the setup costs difference is 5400 resources. Assuming that 2 of these cards could be played in Age4 this could add up to 6600! It roughly takes 265 villager seconds to pay off a bank and start making profit. Think of how many villager seconds a food economy that has 99 villager's gains over the gold economy with these extra shipments and a cheaper setup cost.

265vs x 8 = 2120 Villager Seconds

This is just for the 8 banks you may use to TRY and equal a food based economy. Try catching up if they ship 1000 wood or something similar. So whether it is 5400 or 6600 resources deficit, most Dutch player's can't afford to waste shipments on the extra banks allowing them to build at least 6 of the banks just to compete with the free units and mercenaries being produced by your opponent.

FF Age3 Warfare

So the most powerful strategy at the moment is definitely the Fast Fortress. Getting to Age3 as soon as possible to make use of powerful units to overwhelm your enemy is difficult to counter in Age2 so the only option is to advance as well and try and counter fire with fire. Now I don't think the situation could get any worse for the Dutch economy as we are already miles behind but wait it does! Not only do Dutch not get access to Jaegars arguably the best mercenary in the game, they don't have very strong Age3 shipments.

While economies are weak from around 13 villager's to 17 or so, mercantilism is used a lot in combination with free units and mercenaries. While these shipments battle it out, with most villager's collecting gold for mercs or the mercantilism tech itself you have to balance your economy for building houses continuing to build units to supplement your army. Going back to the original calculations we already know food gathers much more quickly than gold.

Dutch's main units combined with mercenaries of their own = extremely gold intensive. Banks eventually kicking in help for the lack of gold mines available nearby, but they are so behind due to the wasting of shipments and setup costs for their economy it is impossible to compete with an equally skilled player. (Note: This is comparing Dutch with the strongest civlisations in the game, I'm sure the other weaker civlisations are in the same boat but not extensively as this in economy, but in other areas).

So you have so many villager's gathering gold and so many on wood but for instance let me suggest both economies have 5 villager's on their expanding resource which is either food or gold, which would normally work out as more once you have upgraded your gathering rates:

0.78 x 129 Seconds = 100.62 Food x 5 Villager's = 503.1 Food
0.60 x 167 Seconds = 100.2 Gold x 5 Villager's = 501 Gold

Back comes that 40 seconds difference, now with weak economies the food economy is again shown to be able to expand a lot quicker. This is even more so possible now the Dutch army is very gold intensive, especially with falconet's. This leaves the Dutch player to make another sacrifice to build villager's to keep up with the food player's better economy or to forget that and continue to build military units to compete. Even at a slower rate the food player will be able to expand as unit shipments provide cover for cannons which don't cost food allowing them some opportunity to continue expanding their economy.

With their extra 3 shipments the food player doesn't need to enable them to maximise their economy, they could have shipped in wood or gold or even more units. Giving them a more powerful army, more cannons and more map control. Allowing you less natural gold as Dutch and making you rely more on a deficit in banks that is already keeping you behind economically. This leads to your economy being harassed earlier giving them a further advantage, especially if they have Jaegars and an anti-cav unit.

CONCLUSION

Without an economy already suffering being able to field more units would be a great advantage, though somewhere along the line the Dutch player has to compromise. The food economy player can field just as large an army by finding the breaking point between these Dutch compromises = uniqueness in no advantage whatsoever! From the beginning to the end of the game Dutch are always behind. Meaning any equal skilled battle is enormously in your opponent's favour.

People who don't play Dutch and say dutch have a great economy are insane. Even when FF isn't a prominent strategy if it gets fixed in 1.05 and extra starting resources give Dutch a quicker start. In some way or another the basis of a gold economy will still suffer major blows.

-Kyle

AuthorReplies:
justiw
Skirmisher
posted 02-19-06 02:07 PM EDT (US)     51 / 72       
If you play dutch until level 40+ a lot of the original posters arguments start to become obvious to you. Low level dutch play is much easier because a lot of lower level players focus on colonial warfare. If you try to drag out a colonial fight with the dutch, you're going to get beat. Once the other civs get into the 30+ levels, they start getting cards that are much better than thier early counterparts, where the dutch are stuck with a lot of cards that they've been using since day 1. The same is true for politicians, although there is the really good one for the dutch that gives ruyters and settlers at level 50.

Always with the dutch you are faced with critical decisions like:

Do I task a lot of villagers on wood, or ship as much wood as possible? (the dutch wood economy is critical in colonial)

Do I build a bank first or a barracks first?

Should I build skirmishers in early age 2?

Do I build a second bank early in colonial?

Do I ship wood or coin in colonial? (delayed FF or all out FF?)

etc...

If you make a wrong decision on any of these questions, it amounts to a huge setback, and often times it will cost you the game. Everyone knows that the dutch 150 pop army is basically unstoppable, but how often do any dutch players get to realize this power??? It's all too obvious that the dutch were beaten with the nerf stick prior to game release, but now I'm willing to wait and see what 1.05 brings to the table.


Counter the attack, then Counter Attack!!!
Ender_Ward
Skirmisher
posted 02-19-06 02:27 PM EDT (US)     52 / 72       

Quoted from schildpad:


swiss pikes can be handy
advanced arsenal
9 skirms
sometimes fort
3 settler in age1
infantry combat, team infantry and (not team) cavalry
advanced banks (cheaper + more HP)
i have enough cards to send, also i send faster mining card quite often.

I almost never used Swiss Pikes as Dutch.

Advanced Arsenal isn't really all that useful to the Dutch, the two most important techs, Counter Infantry Rifling and Ranged Carasole are available with the normal arsenal.

I never use the faster mining cards. They aren't really worth it IMO.

3 Settlers in Age1 is ofcourse a must as an option.

Fort is present in most of my decks too.

IMO the infantry cards, even the 10% HP & Attack, are worthless. They're calculated on the base attack and HP values of the unit. Using a Skirmisher as example, +10% attack gets you a whopping +1.5 damage and +10% HP gets you +12 hitpoints. So if you use all three cards, your Skirmishers go from:

18 attack and 144 HP to 21 attack and 168 hp. Hardly worth 3 cards.

I agree with the +10% HP and +10% damage for Cavalry though. It improves those Ruyters quite well.

Quoted from schilpad:


for fully banks you need
1 extra bank
2 extra bank
3 unique church
4 advancedbanks
5 tulip speculation (an age4 card for 15% gather bonus :S)

I don't think you particularly "need" #4.


"One wants to be loved, failing that admired, failing that feared, failing that hated and despised. One wants to instill in other people some form of emotion. The soul shudders before emptiness and wants contact, no matter the cost."
Morningthaw
Skirmisher
posted 02-19-06 02:32 PM EDT (US)     53 / 72       
in nearly 100 games with dutch i have never shipped advanced banks. by the time you can spare the shipment to get it you have 4-6 banks, and its not worth shipping it then.

ALSO - schildpads claim that top players know that dutch cant compete with other civs so dont bother using the best strategy - wtf? seriously man, if you actually believe that an expert is going to think "this civ sux, i cant win so i'll use a shit strategy" you shouldnt be posting.

Y3AH
Skirmisher
posted 02-19-06 02:40 PM EDT (US)     54 / 72       
Morningthaw... people like you really piss me off tbh. Why are you even mentioning DauT?

1) He's not an average player
2) If you would look at his stats, you would notice that he was mainly playing vs. one player (and beat the crap out of him about 95% of the time)
3) He had one strat, and that was FF-to-Ruyters.. once people got used to that he kept losing.. and losing..... and losing.


Playing with the Dutch:

*1 bank too much = you lose (happened to me vs. another Dutch player, O1B_Mark(or something like that)).
*too much cards needed to unlock your economical advantage (which still isn't an advantage imo).

The most beautiful example is when I got rushed by a spanish dude while I wanted to rush him myself... total massacre.. I couldn't keep up with him. Any one noticed how well War Dogs do vs. Skirms btw? :/

schildpad
Skirmisher
posted 02-19-06 02:44 PM EDT (US)     55 / 72       
@morningthaw, you want to tell me experts will use other strats instead of OP strats? Wgy arent their any port player in top 50?

"such a kind fellow!" ~ ķįŋğ_Ćħŗĩ_ĬĬ

Furby killer should be crowned leader of AOE forum ~ [SW_GD]Teutonic

ddemers
Skirmisher
posted 02-19-06 03:42 PM EDT (US)     56 / 72       
schildpad,

After reading this post I went looking for a game to see how crappy my economy will be with banks.

After 2 hours of playing, nearly 30 min of non-stop fighting in a 5 player FFA my settler count was always between 47 and 30, never once did I even come close to almost running out of gold/food, and only wood after getting upgrades in age V.

Considering I went through almost 550 skirms and 150 falconets I would say Dutch have a pretty good economy. Of course they are not the greatest at getting to age III and their mercs suck, but Dutch excel at age I, II, IV and V. If they also exceled at doing a FF like germany, Spain and French, then Dutch would be way too OPed and would be getting nerfed this patch!

Dutch are:

1. The best boomers, British will get their settler pop up faster, but dutch will max out their eco way quicker.
2. Similar to ports/british, they are great for team games.
3. either the #1 or #2 best civ at no rush games.
4. with the power of banks/2 factories and small settler cap (ie, can reach is within 15 or so) they have the best economy in the game.

link to the game stats.
Wow Dutch economy really sucks!


[EEX] Nullpointer
Canadian Gamer
Morningthaw
Skirmisher
posted 02-19-06 04:10 PM EDT (US)     57 / 72       
you obviously seem to have a problem READING what i have written. i will summarise it for you:

1. dutch economy is not as under-powered in mid-to-late game as RarecuT implies.
2. your a fool not to include the 2 extra bank cards in your deck.

people like you who want to make sweeping generalisations and then go pyscho when their criticised piss me off.

**NEWS FLASH** some civs favour team games, some 1v1.

if you gave dutch a significant boost for 1v1 you would have to screw them over so that they werent massively over powered in team games.

RarecuT
Skirmisher
posted 02-19-06 04:18 PM EDT (US)     58 / 72       
I do just fine without them, doesn't make me a fool. Most 1v1 play at least is FF shipment/merc battles. I won't max out on banks by the time I need them I will have either won or lost the game.

I don't use them in 2v2 either as to supplement my partners strategy I need other cards. These cards are the only way Dutch can maximise their economy, however against skilled opponents to compete I have to make way for other cards. That is what is not fair, while they are using them on whatever they want, which leads them to having an ever increasing advantage compared with the setup cost of banks.

You are the fool for not realising this, or you just can't see it as you don't play good players or aren't one yourself.

ultimitsu
Skirmisher
posted 02-19-06 04:21 PM EDT (US)     59 / 72       
Ward: lots of quoting of non-essential arguements... sounds rageful, but anyways...

Quote:

How do you know "my deck" doesn't have villager cards?

Quote:

You notice wrong, ofcourse, because you're seing examples of cards that are sent instead of seing a deck.

Quote:

Uh, says who? Again, I posted a buch of examples of cards.


according to this statement:

Quote:

Now, what else are you going to send, instead of a Bank card? What else, in your deck, is going to be worth more then two +1 Bank cards?

you didnt need anything more than what you listed, just banks.


Quote:

That said, I'm a firm believer that shipping 8 Pikes or 3 Hussars (Dutch colonial shipments) are a waste. If you wanna raid, use your 5-10 Skirmishers. If you wanna fend of a colonial rush, again, use your 5-10 Skirmishers. If you're being hit by small or medium numbers of Cavalry raids, Skirmisher micro eats them for lunch.

do you always build a barrack regardless what your opp does? how long does it take for you to build a barrack + 10 skirms? do you always keep 300+ free wood just in case you get raided with 8+ calvary so you can build pike?

the issue is not having to build units before you need them, the purpose of hussar + pike shipment is to be able to pull out some defense or raiding regardless what resources you have at the time.

pikeman is argueble but hussars are defintely not useless, they are good for treasure hunting, raiding, and beating xbow raid. you get them instantly without building stable, as alternative, you need about minimum 6 skirms+barrack, which cost exceed 1k + all that building time.

you are a firm believer of age2 skirms own just about anything and dutch age2 eco can actually support them without too much suffering in advancing. you even believed that they can stop equal number cossacks in that other thread. (10 skirms to stop 9 cossaks)


Quote:

I posted a bunch of CARDS that one could potentially send, before sending the +1 Bank limit cards.


you only listed SOME cards one can use,
there are a lot more cards would have been needed before one has all the initial banks, which is exactly the original poster's point.

ddemers
Skirmisher
posted 02-19-06 04:50 PM EDT (US)     60 / 72       
RarecuT
You are absolutly correct.

Quote:

I do just fine without them, doesn't make me a fool. Most 1v1 play at least is FF shipment/merc battles. I won't max out on banks by the time I need them I will have either won or lost the game.

I would say about 10-20 percent of the games I play my oponent will FF. The simple fact is Dutch economy doesnt excel for certain strats, lukcily for us there are dozens of different strats out there and dutch do just find or excel any many of them. When I play 1vs1 vs good players I always use French or Spain because they excel at the FF strat, simple as that.


[EEX] Nullpointer
Canadian Gamer
Ender_Ward
Skirmisher
posted 02-19-06 05:07 PM EDT (US)     61 / 72       

Quoted from ultimitsu:


sounds rageful

Rageful? Ooookay ...

Quote:


you didnt need anything more than what you listed, just banks.

+

Quote:


you only listed SOME cards one can use,
there are a lot more cards would have been needed before one has all the initial banks, which is exactly the original poster's point.

Taking that statement in context you'd see that the question was about what could a Dutch player use after he used up all the good cards in his deck, instead of +1 Bank limit?
As I tried to explain in the original post, and in agreement with the starter of the thread, you either win before you need more than 6 Banks, or you're in an Industrial tug of war and have exhausted all the cards that are better than +1 Bank limit. And ofcourse there's the third option that you're getting your arse kicked, and another 2 Banks won't save you.

What I listed was a bunch of examples of the kinds of cards you're going to win with, before you ever think of using the Bank cards.

If you also read the rest of the post, you'd also see me stating that the Dutch are essentially screwed, because they only have 17 cards to bring into the game, instead of 20, if they want a fully unlocked economy.

Quote:


do you always build a barrack regardless what your opp does?

Yes. How else are you going to effectively Skirmisher raid if you don't build 'em?

Quote:


how long does it take for you to build a barrack + 10 skirms?

The same as every other game. However if what you're asking is when do I build 'em? As soon as I hit colonial if against an agressive civ, if I've scouted my enemy to have built Barracks/Native Posts or if I see unit shipments instead of 700 gold (FF).
If it's a boom civ, or they're going for a FF, then Bank first, Barracks second.

Quote:


do you always keep 300+ free wood just in case you get raided with 8+ calvary so you can build pike?

Yep. It's the resources that would normally go into building a Bank. Scouting is key. If I see raiding cavalry, I build pikes instead of a Bank. But I will not waste a shipment on 8 pikes.

Quote:


the issue is not having to build units before you need them,
the purpose of hussar + pike shipment is to be able to pull out some defense or raiding regardless what resources you have at the time.

pikeman is argueble but hussars are defintely not useless, they are good for treasure hunting, raiding, and beating xbow raid. you get them instantly without building stable, as alternative, you need about minimum 6 skirms+barrack, which cost exceed 1k + all that building time.

You'll never go wrong building those 10 Skirmishers. They are excellent both at raiding AND defense. If I cannot effectively raid, and I do not require a defense, these 10 skirmishers are excellent at Tresure Hunting as well.
Pikes are useless if you aren't getting hit by Cavalry (killing houses only works against poor opponents). Hussars cannot stay out of range of TC fire and they melt to it.
Both take 40 seconds to arrive. Both also prevent me from sending 700 wood (Banks) or 700 gold (Fortress).

The 10 Skirmishers are going to be useful right into Fortress, especially as they get auto-upgraded.

3 Hussars or 8 Pikes is wasting a shipment that I can instead use on 700 gold. Which would allow me to stil get to Fortress fast (Exiled Prince), even after I spent 500 food and 650 gold on Skirmishers.

As for building a stable, you never need to do that until Fortress, unless you are fighting an Ottoman. Most other civs counter your colonial Hussars way too hard. It's better to build Skirmishers.

Hell look at Moony's recordings. He builds Pikemen, he doesn't ship them. And do you see him ship 3 Hussars? Nope, I never have.

Quote:


you are a firm believer of age2 skirms own just about anything and dutch age2 eco can actually support them without too much suffering in advancing.

Yes but with a reservation. You MUST raid or treasure hunt, when you've built Skirmishers in colonial and there is no attack.

Quote:


you even believed that they can stop equal number cossacks in that other thread. (10 skirms to stop 9 cossaks)

Ofcourse. Any good player will tell you the same. TC fire + 10 Skirmishers = 9 dead Cossacks. Hell I'll probably kill those Cossacks even without the TC fire if caught near the Russian's base, with few (2-3 Skirmishers) casualties.
Skirmishers have no trouble what so ever with small numbers of Cavalry. That's why they're getting nerfed.

Ultimitsu, what's your ESO name? I'd like to see just how many games you have with Dutch and what is your HC level. I'm also curious why you compared Dutch colonial with Portuguese colonial game in the previous post, when they are so very different.



"One wants to be loved, failing that admired, failing that feared, failing that hated and despised. One wants to instill in other people some form of emotion. The soul shudders before emptiness and wants contact, no matter the cost."
schildpad
Skirmisher
posted 02-19-06 05:14 PM EDT (US)     62 / 72       
if dutch dont suck compared to other civs, then why is your dutch winning prc much lower then winning prc of your other civs?

"such a kind fellow!" ~ ķįŋğ_Ćħŗĩ_ĬĬ

Furby killer should be crowned leader of AOE forum ~ [SW_GD]Teutonic

ummBeefy
Skirmisher
posted 02-19-06 05:34 PM EDT (US)     63 / 72       
go checkout gamreplays.org strat foruma nd you'll see the math for 7 vills per plantation. You can do the test yourself alos, the more vills you have the slwoer they gather.
Ender_Ward
Skirmisher
posted 02-19-06 05:42 PM EDT (US)     64 / 72       

Quoted from schildpad:


if dutch dont suck compared to other civs, then why is your dutch winning prc much lower then winning prc of your other civs?

Are you askind me? If you are, then when did I say the above? Ofcourse Dutch suck compared to the stronger civs (Ottoman, French, Spanish and German). They're on the level of the British (alittle underpowered), and they're better than Russians and Portuguese (bottom of the barrel).

As for why my win percentage is much lower with Dutch than other civs, the explanation is fairly simple:

1. Dutch are underpowered.
2. I started playing on ESO with the Dutch. Can you imagine the learning curve?


"One wants to be loved, failing that admired, failing that feared, failing that hated and despised. One wants to instill in other people some form of emotion. The soul shudders before emptiness and wants contact, no matter the cost."
ultimitsu
Skirmisher
posted 02-19-06 05:47 PM EDT (US)     65 / 72       

Quote:

As I tried to explain in the original post, and in agreement with the starter of the thread, you either win before you need more than 6 Banks, or you're in an Industrial tug of war and have exhausted all the cards that are better than +1 Bank limit.

but sometimes you neither win nor lose, under constant raidng, you cant age as smooth as your original post suggested.

I dont play dutch much, but i have played dutch a bit to know that dutch eco/shipments are not fast enough to give it the upperhand to freely advance, dutch are often forced to drag longer in age2 (or age3) that is where weaker civs need non-goal shipments, such as unit shipments to help them to survive.


i compared dutch to port because they are in similar boat, they cant FF (sub 8), they dont have powerful age2 shipments/units to scare opp away, and they are both rather weak.

the biggest difference is dutch gets skirms and banks, banks are not really better deals than villagers before you run out of nearby mines(which shouldn't happen in colonial if u have 2 mines close), skirms are very expensive for what they are. maybe your are a micro god, but i dont see how you beat equal numbers of cossack with them.

[This message has been edited by ultimitsu (edited 02-19-2006 @ 05:51 PM).]

Ender_Ward
Skirmisher
posted 02-19-06 06:07 PM EDT (US)     66 / 72       

Quoted from ultimitsu:


but sometimes you neither win nor lose, under constant raidng, you cant age as smooth as your original post suggested.

Yes, often you'll end up in a Fortress tug of war. But the point is stil moot. You're going to use up better cards before you want over 6 Banks. Hell in such a tug of war, you likely couldn't afford to build those 2 more Banks anyway.

Quote:


I dont play dutch much,

Not to be too harsh, but it shows. Your statement that the Dutch are similar to Portuguese shows that you do not understand the civ. The Dutch are so much better than Portuguese (which I've played to level 30 HC) that it's not even funny. I have a level 47 Dutch HC, and have played more games with Dutch than any other civ, by the way. That doesn't put me on the level of Rarecut, Daut or Ourk, ofcourse, but it's a substantial experience base nontheless.

Quote:


but i have played dutch a bit to know that dutch eco/shipments are not fast enough to give it the upperhand to freely advance, dutch are often forced to drag longer in age2 (or age3) that is where weaker civs need non-goal shipments, such as unit shipments to help them to survive.

Yes, Dutch are indeed forced to drag abit longer into colonial than other FF civs. That's why you have the Exiled Prince. It means that unlike a typical FF that starts to age by 6:30 to arrive in Fortress by 8 minutes, you can start aging at 7:30 (having been slowed down by bulding colonial Skirmishers) and stil be in Fortress by 8 minutes.
It's the super fast FF (like the Spanish 6:30-7:00) that Dutch have problems with, and is part of the reason why they are underpowered.

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i compared dutch to port because they are in similar boat, they cant FF (sub 8), they dont have powerful age2 shipments/units to scare opp away, and they are both rather weak.

Hell yes Dutch can FF at sub 8 minutes. It means you only build one or no Banks in colonial and you use Exiled Prince.
Unit shipments are highly overrated.

And Dutch > Portuguese. Not even a contest.

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maybe your are a micro god, but i dont see how you beat equal numbers of cossack with them.

I'm by no means a micro "god". My micro is merely above average, I think. If you are having trouble defeating low numbers of Cavalry with Skirmishers, you need to practice more. Watch some replays perhaps to see how others do it. There's a reason Skirmishers are getting nefred, and this is it. Because people DO indeed fight Cavalry off that easily with them.


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RarecuT
Skirmisher
posted 02-19-06 07:41 PM EDT (US)     67 / 72       
I posted the same thread over at AgeSanctuary and some people just don't get it. If you don't agree with some of my points in the original thread then hopefully people can at least agree that using 4 cards to have an almost equal economy isn't fair that is great.

Banks are just not as effective as villager's. Yes they can't be raided but that is because if you build one you will be behind in resources and be on the defensive at least for the time it takes to pay off the bank. While that is happening that resource advantage is helping the enemy pound you with pressure weakening your economy even more.

TheGoodEvil
Skirmisher
posted 02-19-06 09:13 PM EDT (US)     68 / 72       
You have to see why Dutch need cards to get more banks... you give me 6-8 banks to build whenever I want and I will create a bank spam strat that will blow any economy out of the water...

The cards are used to slow dutch economy from being OP, you can still build plantations you know...

TGE


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RarecuT
Skirmisher
posted 02-19-06 09:30 PM EDT (US)     69 / 72       
Fair enough I can understand that. Right now however banks are not effective at filling that role and using cards to get the extra four make this situation 10x worse.

I still don't see how it would blow any economy out of the water, it already doesn't with or without using cards. 99 villager's gives a much better return than banks + 50vils.

[This message has been edited by RarecuT (edited 02-19-2006 @ 09:31 PM).]

TheGoodEvil
Skirmisher
posted 02-19-06 09:42 PM EDT (US)     70 / 72       
Well tbh you have to spend to make, if you don't spend you don't make. Don't look at it like "it takes x amount of time to pay for itself" think of it like "if I build this bank it will allow me to train troops faster once its built"

paying 700 resources that you have in your reserves on somehting that will increase your resource income quickly (even if by the end of the game doesn't pay for itself) is worth it. After all the main thing you are trying to do in increase income of resources, paying 400 resources on vils won't pay for themselves any time soon but they will increase the amount of resources that come into your coffers which will ultimately allow you to train units sooner than not training new vils at all.

I can't make a huge post about the math involved, but I can say that if it takes 100 seconds to train 4 vils costing 100 resources each than paying 700 resources to get full production of those 4 vils almost instantly (depending on how many vil you use to build the bank) is certainly not that huge a price to pay.

I'm all for spending what I need to to get as much of a performance gain as possible in game.

Might not make for much of an equation but I figure the faster I can get my economy going regardless of cost means the better I will do in 5 minutes. You just have to play more defensively if you plan on spending a lot on resources sooner.

TGE


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copy_my_style
Skirmisher
posted 02-20-06 00:03 AM EDT (US)     71 / 72       
What a load of humble jumble. Just play the game, dont rip it to pieces. The dutch economy has its advantages and disadvantages, as do all the other civs. Blah.

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slackman42
Skirmisher
posted 02-20-06 09:13 PM EDT (US)     72 / 72       

Quote:


paying 700 resources that you have in your reserves on somehting that will increase your resource income quickly (even if by the end of the game doesn't pay for itself) is worth it. After all the main thing you are trying to do in increase income of resources, paying 400 resources on vils won't pay for themselves any time soon but they will increase the amount of resources that come into your coffers which will ultimately allow you to train units sooner than not training new vils at all.

I can't make a huge post about the math involved, but I can say that if it takes 100 seconds to train 4 vils costing 100 resources each than paying 700 resources to get full production of those 4 vils almost instantly (depending on how many vil you use to build the bank) is certainly not that huge a price to pay.

i think this was kinda the point of the entire post. the reason you train more settlers is because their cost will be recouped at a fairly quick rate. this isnt really the case when you consider banks, hence they are not as much of an advantage as they seem. seriously. compare them to french settlers. i know i'd much rather spend equal resources and get 7 cdbs than a bank. hell, i'd take seven regular settlers (or 8, closer in cost). not only do they individually recoup their cost much sooner, you will have almost twice the gathering power afterwards.

and answering the first section last, the problem is you really dont have those 700 resources just sitting in your coffers waiting to be used when you already start out slower than the other civs that simply send one card to get to fortress because they know u will be hard pressed to stop them.

consider the cost of 10 skirms, a standard raid force. 650g, 500f. that's a HUGE chunk of change early age2. that's 2 shipments worth of resources if you consider barracks cost. so for equal cost, your opponent will likely get to age3, with 7 free superior skirms. from that point on, you will have a losing battle as your skirms are not at the veteran level. so what do you do instead? go ff yourself? great, you're both in fortress, but your opponent now has a better eco due to cheaper settlers whether you build banks or not.

the problem may not be that banks are not worth their cost, the problem is you won't be around long enough for them to be worth their cost.

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