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Age of Empires III Heaven » Forums » General Discussions » The 13 Polish Winged Hussars card (Germany) is overpowered.
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Topic Subject:The 13 Polish Winged Hussars card (Germany) is overpowered.
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Ender_Ward
Skirmisher
posted 04-10-06 00:08 AM EDT (US)         
No other civ gets such an amasing shipment. I just saw a recording where these 13 Guard Hussars totally decided the game. What was ES thinking when they allowed 13 Guard units to be shipped for free?
The 13 Hussars themselves are worth 2600 resources. The Guard status itself is worth 1600 resources (400 vet + 1200 guard). A total of 4200 resources sent in a single card ... that's nuts!

Look at the options the other civs have:

Portuguese Industrial military shipments:
24 normal Pikes
8 veteran Halberdier (no joke)
16 normal Musketeers
11 veteran Cassadors
7 veteran Dragoons
6 veteran Cassadors + 4 veteran Dragoons
4 normal Organ Guns
2 normal Culverins
2 Mortars
2 Heavy Cannons

Ottoman Industrial military shipments:
10 normal Janissary
8 normal Hussars
8 veteran Cavalry Archers
7 normal Abus Guns
5 normal Grenadiers (no joke)
3 normal Falconets
2 Mortars
2 Great Bombards
8 normal Grenadiers + 1 Great Bombard

Spanish Industrial military shipments:
20 normal Crossbows
24 normal Pikemen
10 normal Pikemen + 8 normal Rodeleros
13 normal Rodeleros
7 normal Hussars
8 veteran Lancers
2 normal Falconets
2 Mortars
2 Heavy Cannons

British Industrial military shipments:
13 normal Longbows
16 normal Musketeers
8 normal Hussars
6 normal Grenadiers
2 normal Falconets
2 Mortars
3 Rockets

French Industrial military shipments:
24 normal Pikemen
14 veteran Skirmishers
7 veteran Dragoons
7 normal Hussars
6 veteran Cuirassiers
5 veteran Cuirassiers
3 normal Falconets
2 Mortars
2 Heavy Cannons

Dutch Industrial military shipments:
13 veteran Halberdiers
14 veteran Skirmishers
7 veteran Hussars
12 veteran Ruyters
10 veteran Halberdiers + 4 veteran Ruyters
5 Grenadiers
2 Falconets
2 Culverins
1 Mortar
2 Heavy Cannons

Russian Industrial military shipments:
28 normal Strelets
13 veteran Halberdiers
17 normal Musketeers
8 normal Cossacks (wtf? not 10 or 12?)
8 veteran Cavalry Archers
9 veteran Oprichnicks
9 normal Grenadiers
2 normal Falconets
2 normal Culverins
2 Mortars
2 Heavy Cannons (x2)

Not even the French shipment of 6 veteran Cuirassiers approaches the worth of the Winged Hussars ...

What, it wasn't enough for ES to give Germany the best Mercs, they also had to get an 'uber' normal unit shipment, just incase they didn't have the gold for mercs yet? WTF?



"One wants to be loved, failing that admired, failing that feared, failing that hated and despised. One wants to instill in other people some form of emotion. The soul shudders before emptiness and wants contact, no matter the cost."
AuthorReplies:
Earl Samsca
Skirmisher
posted 04-12-06 03:13 PM EDT (US)     76 / 97       
7 goons+4 Uhlans would give 13 Hussars a run for their money.

And potentially my units could be guard as well.

Adam42
Skirmisher
posted 04-12-06 03:36 PM EDT (US)     77 / 97       
Name an age 4 card that beats 13 guard hussars (and no, 8 doppels don't).

I don't care that you can't make any more of them, a guard upgrade is WORTH 1200 and a veteran upgrade is WORTH 400. Doesn't matter that germany can't make any more of them.

But, since we are getting nowhere here, even if we completely ignore these upgrades, 13 hussars is still 2600, which is too much. That's not just because of germany's civ bonus, since the card is much better than even germany's other t4 cards.

unjugon
Skirmisher
posted 04-12-06 03:37 PM EDT (US)     78 / 97       
lol @ 13 guard hussars shipment vs 7 dragoons shipment.

=)

Might also want to compare it to the 2 culverin shipment or 2 mortars...xDD


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[This message has been edited by unjugon (edited 04-12-2006 @ 03:38 PM).]

Shizzle
Skirmisher
posted 04-12-06 03:40 PM EDT (US)     79 / 97       
culverins are extremly usefull. The are far from sucky. I won many games with it, most players are very artillery depended and make lots of falcs. A couple of culvs and theyr army is dead meat.
Felix Hermansson
Skirmisher
posted 04-12-06 04:07 PM EDT (US)     80 / 97       

Quote:

Name an age 4 card that beats 13 guard hussars

2 Monitors!

schildpad
Skirmisher
posted 04-12-06 04:17 PM EDT (US)     81 / 97       
which civ has 2 monitor shipment?

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justiw
Skirmisher
posted 04-12-06 04:45 PM EDT (US)     82 / 97       
^^brits have 2 monitor shipment iirc

Counter the attack, then Counter Attack!!!
Aoe3Wolverine
Skirmisher
posted 04-12-06 05:32 PM EDT (US)     83 / 97       
Have you personally tested 8 doppels and 4 uhlans against 13 polish winged hussars? Upgrade them (both) to vet, as being in age 4 with unupgraded doppels is idiotic if you want to send the 8 dopp card. 800 resources for 2 of the staple german units really isn't too much to ask is it?

This card is slightly OP, 13 guard hussars is a bit much, 9-10 probably would be better. It is the german advantage that they get free uhlans for each ship. The card for any other civ would probably be 10 hussars, with the 4 uhlans becoming the 3 extra hussars. French have a similar card...I think its 6 hussars and 3 cuirs, something like that. The big difference is the guard status. French don't get it because

1. their UC isn't worthless
2. they can actually get hussars

and nobody talks about it because French players rarely have a combo of hussars and cuirs.

Guard status (and guard status only) is the little make-up for having a crap uc. 10 hussars is the ship (2000 res) the 3 extra are from the uhlans you don't get. (4 uhlans = 600 res = 3 hussars) ITS A 2K shipment. Disagree? So all german ships not in age 1 are counted differently now? 1k gold is actually 1450 res, 700 gold is really 1000 res. Looking at it this way its comparable to other age 4 army shipments. It is still more powerful, but aren't all german shipments more powerful? Wasn't that one of their bonuses?

3 Rockets, 6 Cuirs, 24 pikes, all comparable to this.

I have another whole argument on how this shipment wins games, but I think enough people are going to argue about this already...

Ender_Ward
Skirmisher
posted 04-12-06 06:32 PM EDT (US)     84 / 97       
I would like, once again, to ask those who believe this card is balanced, how they would feel if the Portuguese recieved a 7 Field Guns cared in Industrial? Same resource worth (4000 vs 4200). Same included upgrade for a unit that the civ can't normally produce (worth 500 resources). Would you call such a card balanced? Afterall, going by the logic that one shouldn't count an upgrade for a unit that the civ can't normally produce, this card would too be just fine, right?

Can't help but notice that people are ignoring this illustration of just how much out of balance the 13 Winged Hussars card is ...

Also, when speaking of combat effectiveness, how can one ignore the guard and veteran upgrades included in the card? These upgrades mean extra hitpoints and extra damage. That is a huge part of combat effectiveness.

Come on, give my Ottomans the ability to send 6 upgaded Organ Guns (Ribaulds) in Industrial. After all, the upgrade (worth 500 resources) won't count, since I can't make any more of them. And not counting the upgrade, those Organ Guns are "only" worth 2400 resources. Stil less than the 2600 for 13 Hussars ...
Infact, to match the worth of 13 Guard Hussars for a civ that can't produce anymore of them, my Ottomans would need to recieve 10 upgraded Organ Guns, and STIL only be worth 4000 resources.

You wouldn't mind my Ottomans getting 10 Ribaulds for free in Industrial, right?

Right ...

Come on people, you know the card is ridiculous.


"One wants to be loved, failing that admired, failing that feared, failing that hated and despised. One wants to instill in other people some form of emotion. The soul shudders before emptiness and wants contact, no matter the cost."
Earl Samsca
Skirmisher
posted 04-12-06 07:02 PM EDT (US)     85 / 97       
Id drop the organ gun comparrison. Its quite easy to argue its actually quite fine by organ gun comparrison :P

13 Hussars vs 6 organ guns.

120*13.
80*13.

So what, 1200+360, 1560 food.

800+240, 1040 gold.

Vs 600 wood.
1800 gold?

Given gold is gathered what, a little more than 2/3rds the speed of food, 1500 food is worth what, 1000 gold give or take?

Wood is gathered a little slower, so we shall say 600 wood is worth what.. 720~ gold?

So.. 2k gold vs 2.5k gold quite a miss match. Lose 420~ resources for an organ gun.

Would 5 Organ guns (which is about the same resources) cause a huge upset? 4 Organ guns after all exist for Port without causing too much of an outcry....

When you calculate that Germany should get 4 Uhlans (400 gold, 200 food?) ontop of that, your suddenly at the fact that you would only get 4 Organ guns for another civ :P

4 guard organ guns for other civs.. I doubt they would even get used :P
You could throw in another organ gun if you want to argue the relative difference in guard upgrades, but I don't think people would take 5 guard organ guns either... Well.. maybe if they have run out of Factories, HC shipments, merc armies.. etc.

Still the problem is that they are guard. Veteran would probably be better, but that gives them a significant shelf-life. Once you have guard goons/muskets etc 13 Hussars isn't anything paticually special.

PedestrianIcon
Skirmisher
posted 04-12-06 07:30 PM EDT (US)     86 / 97       

Quoted from Aoe3Wolverine:

It is still more powerful, but aren't all german shipments more powerful? Wasn't that one of their bonuses?


If being absurdly OP is their 'bonus'...then yes.

Let's look at this from a slightly different perspective. Rather than comparing resource values, let's consider how powerful these units actually are. 13 guard hussars are roughly the equivalent of 8 Stradiots, in terms of HP and attack.

Does any other civ have the option to ship in merc-quality units for free?

Other civs have to ship a card, and then pay to get similar units from their UC techs.

Again, which would you rather have? Can you imagine a German player saying "Man, I know I can ship these units in for free, but I'd much rather be able to pay for them via a UC tech"?

If the answer to that question is no (and it is), then please stop posting "the German UC tech is teh l0se!!!11ten! The card is still OP.

Quoted from Ender_Ward:

Come on people, you know the card is ridiculous.


They have to know...I think they just like to argue
ultimitsu
Skirmisher
posted 04-12-06 08:12 PM EDT (US)     87 / 97       

Quote:

Does any other civ have the option to ship in merc-quality units for free?

Other civs have to ship a card, and then pay to get similar units from their UC techs.

Again, which would you rather have? Can you imagine a German player saying "Man, I know I can ship these units in for free, but I'd much rather be able to pay for them via a UC tech"?

you completely negelected all the OTHER benefits from UC.

if german had strong UC options like russian, i am sure people would send it early and use them early, and gladly pay for age4 UC army.

after all, most games dont get to age4.

LO12DS_Mist
Skirmisher
posted 04-12-06 09:32 PM EDT (US)     88 / 97       

Quote:

you completely negelected all the OTHER benefits from UC.

if german had strong UC options like russian, i am sure people would send it early and use them early, and gladly pay for age4 UC army.

after all, most games dont get to age4.

You paid for the shipment for unique church itself, didn't you? So first, you paid for the shipment for the church techs. Then, you actually had to build the church, using villagers that could be doing something better. Third, you had to pay for the units you needed. Did the shipment pay off for itself? Lets see...

You paid 1k res for the UC shipment because you sent it in early age3. Then, you paid 250 res for the church. 1250. Add on 2k coin for 17 guard hussars. 3.25k for all that. What did the German pay?

1600 res, in terms of one shipment, for 13 hussars. No church, no payments, no vils building churches and whatnot.

Who got the better deal? Really, tell me. 1600 res for 13 hussars, or double that for 17?

Quote:

you completely negelected all the OTHER benefits from UC.

You have to pay even more for those. So you're really not benefitting from it after that. I can get free shipments while you have to pay for them.

Aoe3Wolverine
Skirmisher
posted 04-12-06 10:27 PM EDT (US)     89 / 97       
I think what people mean by the other benefits of the UC is that every other civ gets a free, usually beneficial UC tech. Brits get Thin Red Line, which you sacrifice 1 speed for +25% hp. French get code Napoleon, +10% gather rate for CDB, but makes everything costs +50%.

Germans get....Tilly's Discipline? Make infantry units move .4-.5 faster, makes them more expensive? What player ever gets that? Yaay, instead of getting killed 10 range from falcs, my dopples are killed right before they take a swing!

And the 7 Falc comparison really isnt correct, its too much pop. 5 Falcs (4 falcs and 4 uhlans actually...) are a better estimate of the shipment. Or if you like muskets 24-25 muskets (or 18-19 with 3 Hussars)

But i'm going to say that 3 of the 13 hussars are because you don't get the standard 4 uhlans with the age 4 shipment. For any other civ, it would be a 10 hussar shipment. Which is comparable to other age 4 shipments. You can't count guard status cost in as much, you can say possibly a portion of it can count, but its not the same as sending 900 wood for all the guard upgrades with Russia.

Look at it like this, If I were British, I upgrade my muskets to RG status, but I expect to be producing a large amount of them, if I don't already have a large amount. If I had a card that gave me this upgrade, and 20 more muskets to boot, yes, that would be awesomely OP. Now if I have a card that gives me 15 Czpaka Uhlans, this is also the RG upgrade, but its going to be spread among 15 units. Once they die, the RG upgrade is completely worthless.


If you really, really, really want a more accurate look at the card's worth, figure out how many extra hussars the guard status represents. About 3? That's the true worth of the card.


And your age 3 UC armies are available in guess what? AGE 3. I can't get pw hussars until AGE 4. This is assuming I still have shipments then, or that I don't think that a factory or two would possibly serve me better. What have you been doing with your age 3 UC army? Do you think that if you took out 10 villies with your age 3 army it would create possibly a bigger impact than if 10 minutes later I took out 10 of your villies?

I also don't see how this card will *singlehandedly* win a game for a person. They die just like any other unit.

edit: I don't even know why I'm arguing. I don't even use the Germans anymore.

[This message has been edited by Aoe3Wolverine (edited 04-12-2006 @ 10:30 PM).]

KingSteve3721
Skirmisher
posted 04-12-06 11:29 PM EDT (US)     90 / 97       
"edit: I don't even know why I'm arguing. I don't even use the Germans anymore."

LOL.
what a great way to end a thread.

RarecuT
Skirmisher
posted 04-12-06 11:45 PM EDT (US)     91 / 97       
They can be easily countered so I don't see what all the fuss is about. Each civ to be different has its own advantages and disadvantages. This happens to be one of them. Comparing cost etc to make all civs have equal costing shipments in all ages is crazy. Get over it.
Stophon4
Skirmisher
posted 04-13-06 07:44 AM EDT (US)     92 / 97       

Quote:

after all, most games dont get to age4.

75% or more make it to age 4 for me. Arond 95% make it to the 20 minute mark.


"Dutch are OP!"
"Iriquois are OP!"
"Stophon is OP!"

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Adam42
Skirmisher
posted 04-13-06 08:40 AM EDT (US)     93 / 97       
"Have you personally tested 8 doppels and 4 uhlans against 13 polish winged hussars? Upgrade them (both) to vet, as being in age 4 with unupgraded doppels is idiotic if you want to send the 8 dopp card. 800 resources for 2 of the staple german units really isn't too much to ask is it?"

Yes I have. 13 guard hussars > 8 doppels. No upgrades, since we are only comparing shipments here. Making the doppels veteran wouldn't be a fair test. But I did it anyways, and the guard hussars still won four times out of five. Here is an example of a shipment, beating a hard counter, even when the counter-shipment has had upgrades to it. If that isn't OP I don't know what is.

With unique church you need to send the card, build a church and pay thousands of resources for units. I fail to see how the two are connected anyway. I could say Spain misses out on a factory late game, so ES made up for that by making them so good in every other area. (it carries about as much logic with it)

Sjonnie
Skirmisher
posted 04-13-06 10:05 AM EDT (US)     94 / 97       
The weakness of this card (it's not a large one, I must admit) is that when you get to imperial, you can't upgrade those Hussars, while you can with all othert unit shipments from age 4, save mercs.

"One day, my quotes will stand in signatures"
Sjonnie

Quod licet Iovi non licet bovi

yamrak
Skirmisher
posted 04-13-06 12:45 PM EDT (US)     95 / 97       
Well, it seams that ES heard these comments, since the winged hussars card was slightly nerfed by 9%.

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ultimitsu
Skirmisher
posted 04-13-06 02:28 PM EDT (US)     96 / 97       

Quote:

75% or more make it to age 4 for me. Arond 95% make it to the 20 minute mark.

useless you have a different ESO name, this link suggested it is not 75%

in fact it is NOTWHERE NEAR THAT

it is 13.63%

http://www.agecommunity.com/stats/EntityStats.aspx?loc=en-US&EntityName=Stophon4&md=ZS_Supremacy

Angel Walker
Skirmisher
(id: Just a player)
posted 04-13-06 02:45 PM EDT (US)     97 / 97       
LOL! You haven't reached Colonial 11 times!!! Is that OP MM rush?

ESO - Walker

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