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Age of Empires III Heaven » Forums » General Discussions » Balancing the Russians
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Topic Subject:Balancing the Russians
matt light
Skirmisher
posted 04-10-06 08:50 PM EDT (US)         
As we all know (or should at least), Russians are UP. I've struggled to play as them for all 51 levels I have, and I've played with them with decent success (for russians) however, there are several things that should be adjusted next patch.

1. Another starting food crate. Russians are unique in that they start out with fewer vils but more resources. However, the way it is they don't have enough resources to make up for the gap.

2. If #1 isn't implemented, make their houses cheaper as stophon4 suggested.

3. Make cavalry archers better. Right now, they are...a joke. 115 coin for a unit that barely does anything. Not only that, but it's RG for the russians. A ROYAL GAURD UNIT WASTED! I mean, other civs get RG skirms, or hussars, or muskets, or decent unique units. But russians? Grens and CAs. blegh. Boost Cav archers please!


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AuthorReplies:
ZinkOxide
Skirmisher
posted 04-10-06 09:01 PM EDT (US)     1 / 27       
My suggestions-
1. Maybe. I'd rather have more vils.
2. YES. I always have wood problems cause of houses. Maybe make the support more pop? Or have blockhouse support some pop?
3.RG should go to Opris and Strelets, the unique units. Strelets to make them a little better against cav (or even artillery) but not too much better. Opris cause they rock at raiding but need a bit more defense. CAs are terrible, they need to be totally redone.

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The Feared One
Skirmisher
posted 04-10-06 09:25 PM EDT (US)     2 / 27       
Make Opris even stronger? I don't know what game you're playing, but they are fine as they are currently.

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timmac
Skirmisher
posted 04-10-06 09:53 PM EDT (US)     3 / 27       
ports dont get RG for their unique unit, neither do dutch, neither do ottomans.
Senor Bobbers
Skirmisher
posted 04-10-06 10:07 PM EDT (US)     4 / 27       
Yes I believe russians are quite balanced. It's just noobs who think strelets are the things you get when in colonial when they're not. Musketeers cost less, take less pop, and allow you to put more villagers on wood. You should always get the quartermaster politician when aging, and send half your villies over to wood too. Some tips for people having a hard time with russians:

Put both the 700 and 600 food crates in your deck. Those help immensly for settler production and musketeer making. Once you have a surplus of resources being gathered, then strelets can be a good choice. Your first card should always be 700 food or 13 strelets. DO NOT use 300 food as some people do by mistake. Theres no point in getting 300 food as 700 food is more than double that; sure you have to wait longer but its definately worth it.

And for settler production, put most of your settlers on food, im sure thats quite obvious. Your first blockhouse should be built near a herd of huntables that are somewhat distant from your TC, that way you can protect your settlers if they get raided and are too far from the TC. Also, that faster infantry training card helps alot.

[This message has been edited by Senor Bobbers (edited 04-10-2006 @ 10:08 PM).]

Moourns
Skirmisher
posted 04-10-06 10:21 PM EDT (US)     5 / 27       
How many extra food crates can we give Russia to start out with? At this rate, Russia players will start off with enough food crates to click on two batches and advance.

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ZinkOxide
Skirmisher
posted 04-10-06 10:22 PM EDT (US)     6 / 27       
@ Feared One- I just wanted the Russians to have a unit other civs can complain about.
@timmac- I think they should, it makes sense.
@Bobbers- many people use musks, but strelets counter musks. That's why I use em a lot. Plus they are cheap and have big batches.

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ultimitsu
Skirmisher
posted 04-10-06 10:33 PM EDT (US)     7 / 27       
the only thing russian need is a faster start. 6 starting vils + 1 more wood crate would be good.


cheaper house or houses that support more pop is the most crazy idea.

the only thing contributes pop inefficiency is strelets. if anything 10 strelets counters as 5 pop would be enough.

MindMeddler
Skirmisher
posted 04-11-06 03:25 AM EDT (US)     8 / 27       
I'll have to agree with #3. I bet that if you took a poll about C.A. that 80+% would vote for it.
Dieneces
Skirmisher
posted 04-11-06 04:24 AM EDT (US)     9 / 27       
Boost all CAs and give them an extra starting villager.

If not, make strelets 0.5 population.

totava_the_man
Skirmisher
posted 04-11-06 05:28 AM EDT (US)     10 / 27       
ports dont get RG for their unique unit, neither do dutch, neither do ottomans.

Dutch get carabinner ruyters..

And ports SHOULD get RG Cassadores...hum...would help ME..a LOT...maybe call them Elite Cassadores...maybe 133t cassadores...lol



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Krator
Skirmisher
posted 04-11-06 07:15 AM EDT (US)     11 / 27       
Strelets need a speed increase. That's all.

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whitetigerck
Skirmisher
posted 04-11-06 12:17 PM EDT (US)     12 / 27       
i have russian at 62
all they need is one or two starting villagers
or cheaper houses
scipio_africanus
Skirmisher
posted 04-11-06 12:27 PM EDT (US)     13 / 27       

Quote:

And ports SHOULD get RG Cassadores...hum...would help ME..a LOT...maybe call them Elite Cassadores...maybe 133t cassadores...lol

I don't think that'd compliment jinetes too well - you'll always be running around and microing jinetes, so you want something that can stand and take punishment as a meatshield for cannons or to slow down the enemy as another RG unit - cassadors, being made from toilet rolls and sticky-backed plastic, are not much of a "stay there and get on with it" unit.


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Mithrandirdragon
Skirmisher
posted 04-11-06 12:53 PM EDT (US)     14 / 27       
I'm surprised people feel Russians are underpowered. In my experience, they're overpowered, because they can insta-train infantry with enough upgrades, and swarm the enemy with some hundreds of them.

Is there any way to counter this effectively late-game? Any units or shipments, esp. linked to Ottoman Turks, that could overcome such swarms? :S


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justiw
Skirmisher
posted 04-11-06 01:09 PM EDT (US)     15 / 27       
Field guns / Heavy Cannons / Rockets / Organ guns / Great Bombards with a decent meatshield like musketeers or janissaries will make a russian instant infantry player cry. You would have to have a rediculous amount of resources saved up to overcome the cannons, and that's just not going to happen against a decent opponent.

I think russia is very close to being balanced. A very small boost will go a very long way for them. I mean a very small boost in addition to improving Cav archers.


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Zaphod the Brave
Skirmisher
posted 04-11-06 02:19 PM EDT (US)     16 / 27       
Cheaper houses. Plus better CA. I never use CA, too expensive for a crappy unit. That's all they really need. If they get more, they would be OP and everyone would complain about them, like they were about French, and now French have one less starting vil and everybody says they stink. Not that I agree..
MNBob
Skirmisher
posted 04-11-06 02:32 PM EDT (US)     17 / 27       

Quote:

I'm surprised people feel Russians are underpowered. In my experience, they're overpowered, because they can insta-train infantry with enough upgrades, and swarm the enemy with some hundreds of them.

Late game benefits like insta-train infantry are only useful in team games. When people talk about OP or UP they are almost always speaking within the context of 1v1. Russia, along with all civs considered underpowered, share the same characteristic: Slower start combined with a weak early Fortress.

Right now all civs can reach colonial by 4:30 and fortress by 7:30. But only a few civs can do anything significant with a 4:30 colonial (Spain, Ottoman, Germans to a lesser extent) or a 7:30 fortress (Spain, Germans). Russia has decent Colonial raiding ability but they don't have strong siege ability unless they risk an all out grenadier attack which doesn't work against Spain and Germany FF.

The problem with balancing Colonial warfare with fast fortressing is that the only civs that really have a strong colonial attack are those that can do some amount of siege damage in Colonial with siege unit shipments. That's why Spain, Ottoman and Germany are the best. Unfortunately two of those also have the best FF. So FF solution that effects all civs just makes Spain and Germany stronger in colonial.

That's why I think a FF solution has to focus only on Spain/Germany. For example, one possibility would be changing their age2 gold resource cards from 600/700 to 400/500 or replacing them with something completely different.


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[This message has been edited by MNBob (edited 04-11-2006 @ 02:36 PM).]

ZinkOxide
Skirmisher
posted 04-11-06 05:30 PM EDT (US)     18 / 27       
I think though the Russians are very good in 2v2 and higher.

But for 1v1 I think better CA plus either cheaper houses or 1 more starting villie.


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KingSteve3721
Skirmisher
posted 04-11-06 05:52 PM EDT (US)     19 / 27       
"ports dont get RG for their unique unit, neither do dutch, neither do ottomans."

dutch get RG ruyters...

1. yes, they need 1 more vill or a extra wood/food crate

2. ive been supporting this, i say make them cost 50-75 wood or make them support 15-20 pop.

3. DEFINITLY.
i dont think ive ever even used a cav archer yet. they suck really bad, but they look cool
yeah they should get a diff RG, i say cossacks.

lrd_dmsdy666
Skirmisher
posted 04-11-06 07:09 PM EDT (US)     20 / 27       
yeah, im with you^. Id say russian RG units should be Cossacks and strelets to make up for them being worth less than crap. Of course, since the russians are already as weak they are (in units), ES doesn't need to maek them even worse by giving them obscure RG units like CA and grens that lose all impact after colonial.

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ultimitsu
Skirmisher
posted 04-11-06 07:20 PM EDT (US)     21 / 27       
russian gets crappy royal guard because it is so cheap.

like 400 res per guard upgrade or something.

ZinkOxide
Skirmisher
posted 04-11-06 08:12 PM EDT (US)     22 / 27       
Even if it is cheap it is still worthless.

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ultimitsu
Skirmisher
posted 04-11-06 08:25 PM EDT (US)     23 / 27       
worthless or not it depends on your point of view.

for example, if your main units were cossack, strelets, opris and muskts, you consider that you did the 2500 gold all guard upgrade for them, still a steal, cos the wholething would cost 4800 otherwise.

then you may consider that you didnt pay anything to upgrade cav archer, because you didnt really want to use them, they were not part of your consideration.

tartar royalist still only cost F-45, G-115

but now has 371 hp and does ~69 damage / 3 sec to melee cavalries, significantly better than vet.dragoons at 240 HP doing 78 dmg / 3 sec.

[This message has been edited by ultimitsu (edited 04-11-2006 @ 08:27 PM).]

Neptune777
Skirmisher
posted 04-11-06 08:48 PM EDT (US)     24 / 27       
Russians need an extra factory card, 1 or 2 extra starting villies and a Cavalry Archer boost.

Theres no black without the blue Selson blue
Rostasky
Skirmisher
posted 04-11-06 10:32 PM EDT (US)     25 / 27       
Cav archer boost and fix cards are all that are needed.

Blockhouse cannon.

Strelet Muster (or something like that)

All age 4 strelet cards.


Best thing about Russians, is that they have probably the best church cards (imo). Westernization and Petrine reforms give RUssians a great mixed late game army.

They also benefit a lot from Advanced arsenal (opri, cav archer, strelet, upgrades)

Polar explorer is great too.

Another crate might be useful, as they are weakest in the beginning, but another vill is too much.

Neptune777
Skirmisher
posted 04-12-06 00:31 AM EDT (US)     26 / 27       
Your forgetting extra villies

Theres no black without the blue Selson blue
ummBeefy
Skirmisher
posted 04-12-06 02:18 AM EDT (US)     27 / 27       
I like the russians and thik they are a fairly good civ. I dont lose with them vs any civs except spain and germany.
My main problem with germany is aging to colonial as fast as the other civs and still having a decent economy. They can partly make up for this by being able to build barracks in first age. If I want to keep my town center producing constantly I have to go with a 17 villager colonial which means a time of 5 minutes or later. Spain can go 17 villager colonial in under 4:30.

In order to rememdy this problem russia needs another crate of either food or wood AND another villager.

Cav archers...well screw cav archers. Muskets work just fine as anti cav for me. In the third age I'm spamming opris and muskets anyway I dont care about CA.

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