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Age of Empires III Heaven » Forums » General Discussions » Russia- the anti-ottoman civ
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Topic Subject:Russia- the anti-ottoman civ
Killa4life
Skirmisher
posted 07-01-06 03:23 PM EDT (US)         
Russia is exactly the anti-otto.
Let's make some kind of poll out of this, say yes if you agree and no if you disagree.´Please tell me why you said yes/no.

Yes.

While ottos get their vills slower, Russians get their vills faster.

The best (or standard) ottoman unit, the janissary (sp?) is countered very well by srelets.

Abus guns overkill strelets and the Russian has 9 cossacks (4+5 cossack shipment) to deal with them.

Ottomans get Spahi, Russia gets Kalmucks (sp?)/ Manchu.
(same for stradiots/mamelukes)

Ottoman FF stands no chance vs the Russian one imo cos of the reasons I alrdy told you.

Ottoman rush has no chance vs Russia aswell cos strelets>jans and cossacks>abus.

the only strat that might work is FI but then the Russian guy simply booms, takes map control and gets culvs vs HCs (tho HCs dont do bad vs culvs)

End of story= dead Ottomans.

Does anyone agree/disagree?

AuthorReplies:
KingSteve3721
Skirmisher
posted 07-01-06 03:26 PM EDT (US)     1 / 28       
russia would truly be anti-otto if spahi were non-existant. but no, since russia has the worst anti cav, all otto has to do is ship spahi, no more strelets, and then what counters the jans?

if you have enough wood to get kalmucks, then forget about it, russia owns otto.


[FeaR]{KingSteve3721}
“I love my name of honor, more than I fear death.”- Julius Caesar
"The Pope! How many divisions has he got?"- Joseph Stalin
"The hand that gives is above the hand that takes. Money has no motherland; financiers are without patriotism and without decency; their sole object is gain."- Napoleon Bonaparte
"Dogs, would you live forever?"- Frederick the Great (addressing retreating Prussians at the Battle of Kolin)

[This message has been edited by KingSteve3721 (edited 07-01-2006 @ 03:35 PM).]

Killa4life
Skirmisher
posted 07-01-06 04:13 PM EDT (US)     2 / 28       
just think about kalmucks, manchu, musks..

musks lose to spahi cost effectively, but i thinki 15 musks can beat 5 spahi.

schildpad
Skirmisher
posted 07-01-06 04:15 PM EDT (US)     3 / 28       
if you rush russian very fast you can destroy houses before he can make strelets, and then you won. If you rush late the russian will own you easily. When russian also ages up very fast his eco is much worse then yours

if you get 5 spahi (or mams) before he gets machus/kalmuks you won, there is nothing he can do against it

in industrial otto > russian


"such a kind fellow!" ~ ķįŋğ_Ćħŗĩš_ĬĬ

Furby killer should be crowned leader of AOE forum ~ [SW_GD]Teutonic

Hockeystar
Skirmisher
posted 07-01-06 04:32 PM EDT (US)     4 / 28       
Shapis are so OP. Abus guns pawn streetlets and Jans pawn crossacks. Russia needs and extra starting settler to advance at a decent time to defend rush.
OttovonBismarck
Skirmisher
posted 07-01-06 05:00 PM EDT (US)     5 / 28       

Quote:

Shapis are so OP. Abus guns pawn streetlets and Jans pawn crossacks. Russia needs and extra starting settler to advance at a decent time to defend rush.


Spahis arent that OP. As people have stated before, if you get Kalmucks out early enough, you can win. Its really a race to see wether who can get out their shipped Cav first.

Abus guns (especially if they focus fire) do massive overkill to strelets, so much of the damage is wasted. If you MICRO your cossacks you can simply ignore the jans and go after the Abus. Plus, to beat a russian, you have to attack as soon as is humanly possible. This means that 999 times out of 1000 you arent gonna attack with abus+Jans, but with just jans.

Russia does NOT need an extra starting villie to advance fast. They can get up really, really fast at times (often faster than an Otto).

schildpad
Skirmisher
posted 07-01-06 05:09 PM EDT (US)     6 / 28       
if you age up really fast with russia, your otto opponent will have better economy

"such a kind fellow!" ~ ķįŋğ_Ćħŗĩš_ĬĬ

Furby killer should be crowned leader of AOE forum ~ [SW_GD]Teutonic

ultimitsu
Skirmisher
posted 07-01-06 05:30 PM EDT (US)     7 / 28       
the problem is you can never get kalmuks out fast enough.

equal skill level otto beat russian just about everytime.

Quote:

"While ottos get their vills slower, Russians get their vills faster.

this applies to every civ in the game, otto not having to pay for their vils is a huge advantage, their side of deer/bery last longer, they get an early TP to make up for all their eco shortage.

Quote:

The best (or standard) ottoman unit, the janissary (sp?) is countered very well by srelets.

strelets gets countered very well by otto's other tweo very good units, abus and spahi.

Quote:

Abus guns overkill strelets and the Russian has 9 cossacks (4+5 cossack shipment) to deal with them.

if its age2, then micro rules all, 4 abus kill 10 strelets in 5 turns.

Quote:

Ottomans get Spahi, Russia gets Kalmucks (sp?)/ Manchu.
(same for stradiots/mamelukes)

thats the problem, spahis come out at 7:40~8:00, kalmuks and mahchu dont come out till 9:00 at the best. unless you sacrafice eveything else just to get them out.

Quote:

Ottoman FF stands no chance vs the Russian one imo cos of the reasons I alrdy told you.

this is what happens with otto vs russian when both FF.

russian does either 17 vil or 20 vil FF, hits fortress by 7:50, no army whatsoever before fortress, normally picks 17 strelets, will go with either manchus -> no westernaization and kulmaks for a while, or kalmuck which will take a bit longer to come out.

ottoman hits fortress at 7:00, his 5 jans started raid at about 6:30, russian's FF will be interrupted somewhat, god help him if he did 20 vil FF, witl 17 vils(400wood) hopefully he had wood for BH, he stalls, the otto guy stays out of his BH range, comes shot at vils every 10 sec.

the effect of this is russian cant come out with enough gold by fortress for manchu or wood for kalmuck, Or he sents 13 strelets for the 5 jans and then he doesnt have a shipment for merc/UC/1000 gold/ 1000 wood.

at 7:00 otto hits fortress, 4 abus or 4 hussars comes out, 13 strelets die, or if russian didnt sent the 13 strelets, he will stay garrison for even longer.

at 7:50 russian hits fortress, 5 spahis arrive, russian's 17 strelets die instantly, or they move back behind TC, all vils either garrison or risking getting killed mining gold, because spahis can just ignore TC fire and star kill vils.

now the russian guy has to make a gamble.

if he goes with mass muskts against spahis, otto comes with 2 falc next, russian will be dead; if he goes with manchu/kalmuck, and the otto turned to mass upgraded jans , russian cavalry mercs will serve less than desired purpose. and whichever road he goes, it will be no turning back.

wrong choice = GG, right choice = a maybe for a turn of the tide, but it does not mean a win for russian.

generally russian dies from crumble of economy, and he cant fight back because he is under constant fire and he can never get enough troops out in time to beat otto back.

Quote:

Ottoman rush has no chance vs Russia aswell cos strelets>jans and cossacks>abus.

this depends on how it is played, russian only gets 9 free cossack, otto can make unlimited number of abus.

Quote:

the only strat that might work is FI but then the Russian guy simply booms, takes map control and gets culvs vs HCs (tho HCs dont do bad vs culvs)

otto dont get HC, otto FI attacked at 12:00~13:00 at which time you hard hardly boomed. you only got to fortress in less than 5 minutes, you only produced at the most 18 vil from 1st TC and 9~ish fromt he second, not to meantion if you did have the guts to build a second TC as soon as hitting fortress, you would have been risking everything and you probably wouldnt have got enough res for both 4 culverins and manchus + kalmuks - the spahis are now 1000 HP and he has 8 of them.

[This message has been edited by ultimitsu (edited 07-01-2006 @ 05:38 PM).]

Killa4life
Skirmisher
posted 07-01-06 05:44 PM EDT (US)     8 / 28       
well @ ulti: if the ottoman makes nothing but abus he wont stand a chance vs the cossacks no matter how many he can make lol.

but if he makes both it lasts too long to make an army that can stand up vs 9 cossacks ~33 strelets+ BH fire.

As Russia I actually wouldnt FF at all.

The disadvantages of a russian FF are big easpecially vs ottoman while there arent many advantages imo.

Simply stay in colonial till 10 mins in the game, MASS muskets/strelets and dont stop making vills.

Chop a lot of wood and get map control early on with your BHs.

Micro, make your musks melee the spahi while the strelets attack the jans and the 9 cossacks try to take out the 2 falcs.

Make your BHs fire at the abus.

I know its easier said than done but I beat a 2050 ottoman guy with that strat today ( he was lvl 95 ottomans)
so it cant be too bad.

He first rushed but my spammed strelets+ cossacks took his army out.

Then he FFed and I boomed a lil and massed musks.

I went to fortress a little later.

After that, he got stradiots ( he couldnt get spahi because I had map copntrol thanks to BHs) and they got owned by my muks while my cossacks meleed his falcs and my strelets killed his few jans. ( as I said, he had no food at all)

So the key is to raid the otto + to take map control (no food no spahi no jans=GG)+ to get a very good eco through making consantly vills.
Also never forget about making strelets/musks.

A otto FI is actually the worst thing for the russians but at that time I have total map control = no food= no jans.

The main problem are the bombars but through BH spamming I can buy some time to make culvs while booming.
(get another TC ASAP)

holymolyfrijole
Skirmisher
posted 07-01-06 05:46 PM EDT (US)     9 / 28       
MUSKETS > SPAHI

STFU

ultimitsu
Skirmisher
posted 07-01-06 05:58 PM EDT (US)     10 / 28       
no otto would ever make just abus, its normally 1:4 to 1:2 ratio between abus:jan.

as for russian stay in colonial against otto FF. i have heard from time to time that some people have success with it, i agree it will work at times, but imo what won these games werent any real russian age2 advantages, they were just luck combined with skills.

for one russian has nothing to truly stop spahi+mamulukes raiding, garrison in BH is a waste of time, they run back and forth cost ottoman nothing, your vils garrison->ungarrison cost you VS, you make muskts he either just kill them with spahis or he has abus and falc waiting for you. Again, you only have 9 cossacks and he has 8 spahi + 5 mamulukes + 6 stradiots, they all kill cossacks very well, not to meantion god knows how many jans.

by going FF, all you lose is 6 vils from TC idle time, what you gain from frotress shipment and units access FAR outweighs it.

i have beaten 2100 otto FF several times before, with russian FF, it doesnt mean much at all, because i still lose more than I win, in otto vs russian games.

Quote:

So the key is to raid the otto + to take map control (no food no spahi no jans=GG)+ to get a very good eco through making consantly vills.
Also never forget about making strelets/musks.

raiding ottoman in age2 is impossible.

BH spam stops to work the moment he gets 2 falcs shipped.

you see the problem is ottoman is always 1 step ahead in everything, he ages faster, he raids ealier, he attacks ealier, he gets powerful shipments earlier, russian has no choice but stay reactive all the time.

Quote:

A otto FI is actually the worst thing for the russians but at that time I have total map control = no food= no jans.

otto FI doesnt really need that many jans, he gets 15 from church, he mainly uses guard spahi and bombards. besides, at the point of 12~13 minute, you wont really have much of map control.

[This message has been edited by ultimitsu (edited 07-01-2006 @ 06:10 PM).]

imkeaton
Skirmisher
posted 07-01-06 07:38 PM EDT (US)     11 / 28       
Disagree, i think that Russian are Rush Civi that can beat ottos, but not at all, because abus unit plus jannisaries + micromanage, can own russian streelts and cosacs, the ottoman eco isn't slow, if u upgrade it a bit otto economy will has a lot of resources to make a lot of soldiers
billthekill
Skirmisher
posted 07-01-06 08:43 PM EDT (US)     12 / 28       
Land Map - Russia > Otto
Water Map - Otto > Russia

Otto strength is its rushing ability. Russia can not be rushed.

As lame as it sounds, the key to beat russia is to get those Spahi. It is very easy to do by towering up and do a fishing boom (russia just can't do any type of seige damage short of a granader rush). On land, its another story since Otto can't really boom at all. Otto might be able to get out some Spahi, but it may not be enough with the inferior economy.

As full time Otto player, I would say Russia on land maps gives Otto the hardest time (Well beside Germany of course).


Before you criticize someone, walk a mile in their shoes. That way, you’ll be a mile from them, and you’ll have their shoes.
--Jack Handey Deep Thoughts
Earl Samsca
Skirmisher
posted 07-01-06 11:46 PM EDT (US)     13 / 28       
Frankly no. Otto is the anti-russian civ if anything.

FI is basically uncounterable except by vastly superior skill ratio's or luck.

Where are you getting all this wood to spam blockhouses all over the place aquiring map control? Spahi give you map control everywhere there are not Kalmucks. If they have Kalmucks almost immediately, there is practically zero way they can have a force capable of bringing your TC down before you reach industrial. Once in industrial.. well its all over to be honest.

KingSteve3721
Skirmisher
posted 07-01-06 11:54 PM EDT (US)     14 / 28       
believe it or not, strelets do pretty well against abus. as stated before, massive overkill. just micro the strelets (focus fire). most people find it hard to focus fire abus. heck, even throw the strelets in melee, you will have like a 5:1 ratio strelet/abus.

[FeaR]{KingSteve3721}
“I love my name of honor, more than I fear death.”- Julius Caesar
"The Pope! How many divisions has he got?"- Joseph Stalin
"The hand that gives is above the hand that takes. Money has no motherland; financiers are without patriotism and without decency; their sole object is gain."- Napoleon Bonaparte
"Dogs, would you live forever?"- Frederick the Great (addressing retreating Prussians at the Battle of Kolin)
Angel Walker
Skirmisher
(id: Just a player)
posted 07-02-06 00:00 AM EDT (US)     15 / 28       

Quote:

Ottoman rush has no chance vs Russia aswell cos strelets>jans and cossacks>abus.

Jans >>>>> Cossacks
Abus >>>>> Strelets


ESO - Walker

>> Napoleonic Era --> Visit their Homepage!
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Retired from AoE3. But I do play AoK HD in Steam now and then.
KingSteve3721
Skirmisher
posted 07-02-06 00:02 AM EDT (US)     16 / 28       

Quote:

Jans >>>>> Cossacks
Abus >>>>> Strelets

1. see my above post

2. russia has the advantage, having the cav. once jans turn away to fight cossack, strelets can wipe them out, cossacks run away, etc etc

3. of equal pop war with those 4 units, russia would win, because of what i said above


[FeaR]{KingSteve3721}
“I love my name of honor, more than I fear death.”- Julius Caesar
"The Pope! How many divisions has he got?"- Joseph Stalin
"The hand that gives is above the hand that takes. Money has no motherland; financiers are without patriotism and without decency; their sole object is gain."- Napoleon Bonaparte
"Dogs, would you live forever?"- Frederick the Great (addressing retreating Prussians at the Battle of Kolin)
Sundalo50
Skirmisher
posted 07-02-06 00:13 AM EDT (US)     17 / 28       
must agree with the very first post. Russia matches up very well against otto.

here is a great tip for those going against abus w/ strets.
Put some strets in melee.

once kalmucks come out it equals GG for all otto heavy cavalry.

getting to industrial would be very hard for a russian to compete with,due to two factories and GB but if the russian opponent lets the otto FI then he deserves to lose.

And both russian and otto get schooners, so i gon't see any advantage there.

Brtnboarder495
Skirmisher
posted 07-02-06 00:28 AM EDT (US)     18 / 28       
I think Otto has slight advantage on water over most civs, due to their villager system.

Gameranger: _NiGhThAwK_
Ender_Ward
Skirmisher
posted 07-02-06 00:43 AM EDT (US)     19 / 28       
In a Colonial war, Russians > Ottomans.

If, however, the Ottoman does a FF or a (church) FI, then Ottomans > Russian.


"One wants to be loved, failing that admired, failing that feared, failing that hated and despised. One wants to instill in other people some form of emotion. The soul shudders before emptiness and wants contact, no matter the cost."
KingSteve3721
Skirmisher
posted 07-02-06 00:48 AM EDT (US)     20 / 28       

Quote:

In a Colonial war, Russians > Ottomans.
If, however, the Ottoman does a FF or a (church) FI, then Ottomans > Russian.

thats...pretty much what i said. spahi are the main downfall of russia.


[FeaR]{KingSteve3721}
“I love my name of honor, more than I fear death.”- Julius Caesar
"The Pope! How many divisions has he got?"- Joseph Stalin
"The hand that gives is above the hand that takes. Money has no motherland; financiers are without patriotism and without decency; their sole object is gain."- Napoleon Bonaparte
"Dogs, would you live forever?"- Frederick the Great (addressing retreating Prussians at the Battle of Kolin)
Adam42
Skirmisher
posted 07-02-06 04:24 AM EDT (US)     21 / 28       
It's why against russia I always do a 5:10 FF with exiled prince (or maybe the scout depending on how much close food I have) and send for spahi at 6:30 at the latest. If they try to rush their strelets will just get owned before they do any damage, I will then raid with spahi and most of the time I cripple the russian economy, because he thinks he has complete map control and he's not gonna get raided. Then I just ship 2 falcs, spam veteran janissaries plop down 2 extra TCs and it's gg.

If the russian FFs they can't possibly get manchu/kalmucks out in time to stop spahi destroying everything they have, and if they do they sacrifice their economy majorly to do it. Ottomans are more like the anti-russia civ...

Killa4life
Skirmisher
posted 07-02-06 11:31 AM EDT (US)     22 / 28       
Well, I wrote some kind of strat in the Strategy Central section which includes getting map control by a BH spam all over the map.

It also inludes getting ~15-20 musks if your opponent has cav (like spahi).

The ottoman FF isnt so strong without spahi so as russians simply DONT FF and do what I said in my strategy.

Make some musks (15 at least) vs the cav and you are fine imo.

So 5 spahi arent GG for the Russian since the ottoman is screwed if the russian can kill the Spahi before they could kill many vills.

And if there are BHs everywhere where there are villagers the spahi won't catch them.

Adam42
Skirmisher
posted 07-02-06 01:32 PM EDT (US)     23 / 28       

Quote:

It also inludes getting ~15-20 musks if your opponent has cav (like spahi).

The ottoman FF isnt so strong without spahi so as russians simply DONT FF and do what I said in my strategy.

Make some musks (15 at least) vs the cav and you are fine imo.

In that case I make sure my TC is always firing on your musketeers, when I call minutemen I go straight for your musketeers. Also I suspect you'll make lots of muskets (yes you need LOTS of them to put a dent in spahi)) then I'll age up with 4 abus instead of exiled prince and then kill as many muskets as I can, and by the time my spahi come out, you won't have enough of them to kill my spahi under TC fire.

Quote:

And if there are BHs everywhere where there are villagers the spahi won't catch them.

You'll need a hell of a lot of blockhouses for that to happen. And those blockhouses aren't free - if you spam them everywhere like you say then you're not going to have much res for your rush. Remember spahi will arrive and be raiding you before 8 minutes.

I've played against people who spam blockhouses all over the map, and it's really not hard to beat. I just pump out around 15 janissaries+the 2 falc shipment and you can say bye bye map control. Then you're going to have to run all your settlers back to your original base, and I have my spahi in between your settlers and your base.

[This message has been edited by Adam42 (edited 07-02-2006 @ 01:36 PM).]

ultimitsu
Skirmisher
posted 07-02-06 02:26 PM EDT (US)     24 / 28       
there was a russian strat from way back, involves with BH spamming and attempting map control from it, somwhat similar to your new strat.

to me, it is no different to simply spaming outpost. because once they start sieging on your BH/outpost, it will be down before your troops are made, or even worse when they siege it with falcs, there is nothing you can make from the BH that will help.

[This message has been edited by ultimitsu (edited 07-02-2006 @ 02:41 PM).]

Killa4life
Skirmisher
posted 07-02-06 02:33 PM EDT (US)     25 / 28       
You said you make your TC+ MM fire at my musks but you can't.

I would NEVER try to siege your ottoman town as Russia early on.

The only thing I will do is SPAMMING vills/musks/strelets+ BHs to surround your base from all sides.

Yes, you can get 5 spahi and I won't be able to stop you doing that, but when you try to siege my BHs with your aging abus/spahi/2 falcs/ mayve some jans I will micro my units to kill your army.

And even if my army loses pop/cost wise I will still win since I can spam units forever thanks to my eco and once your spahi/2 falcs are gone you are dead.

I will push you back and put even more BHs around your base.

What can you do?

Not much, because you won't have much food/gold left (unless it's a water map but in that case I simply place some BHs near the coast and send 1 frigate+ fish boom myself) to make many jans/abus/falcs/or anything else.

You can try to spam some shipments but few hussars/fort/abus won't help you much.


The key with russia vs ottomans is not to get an army that beats an equal (pop/cost wise) army but to get a good enough economy to outmass his army.

Another VERY important part is map control since he can't do much if his spahi/falcs are gone and he has no resources because he can't leave his base.

Adam42
Skirmisher
posted 07-02-06 02:53 PM EDT (US)     26 / 28       
What would you do against 15 jans, 4 abus, 15 jans and 5 spahi? I would sit my army on top of the falcs and have them firing at your blockhouse, at which point you have a choice. You can pull back, or you can attack me with your army, which you said yourself would probably lose seeing as you spent all your res on BH. After I take your outposts (which doesn't take long, blockhouses are weak) I will probably raid you, and that works well against russian's because they have no good anti-cav like dragoons. At this point russia's economy is not strong enough for you to continually spam units at me and win.

No matter how many strelets/muskets you spam at jans+falcs+spahi you won't win. Remember I'll be making units too, along with gathering gold for more cannons/mamelukes to replace spahi. At this time in the game russia won't be able to outmass the ottoman army, so you need to be in fortress and getting highlanders+culvs out, but you can't because you wasted all your res on blockhouses that die in 20 seconds.

ultimitsu
Skirmisher
posted 07-02-06 02:55 PM EDT (US)     27 / 28       
Killa4life what you discribed is an ottoman that :

1, has worse eco than you, when you can afford severl BH he cant afford a foundry and make falc, this doesnt really happen. otto eco > russian eco, not just first 7 minutes, but all the way till the end of the game if otto play right, because from the 7 th minute onwards, he is being powered by age3 shipments, while you are still stuck with age2 stuff.

2, doesnt raid properly with spahi. when played right and when russian doesnt have kalmuk and manchu, spahis will last forever, everytime its HP goes below 200, go back hide and regen. BH spamming doesnt stop spahi killing villagers whatsoever.

even after spahis are gone, vet jan + falc itself is a combo that age2 russian has no chance of beating.

Liscious
Skirmisher
posted 07-04-06 11:10 PM EDT (US)     28 / 28       
I dont think russia > otto as bad as spain > russia
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