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Age of Empires III Heaven » Forums » General Discussions » Ender Ward (Spain) vs LO12DS_Mist (Ottoman) on Texas:
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Topic Subject:Ender Ward (Spain) vs LO12DS_Mist (Ottoman) on Texas:
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Ender_Ward
Skirmisher
posted 07-06-06 02:01 PM EDT (US)         
For all you Mist "fans".

Quoted from Ender_Ward:


But I'm sure you would've done better than a 2150 player, Mist (/sarcasm).

Quoted from LO12DS_Mist:


Try me.

Theory versus reality.

Game replay

NOTE: it got kinda laggy (which for me is unusual), but affected both sides.


"One wants to be loved, failing that admired, failing that feared, failing that hated and despised. One wants to instill in other people some form of emotion. The soul shudders before emptiness and wants contact, no matter the cost."
AuthorReplies:
LO12DS_Mist
Skirmisher
posted 07-06-06 02:05 PM EDT (US)     1 / 34       
The stats look kinda odd. Why does it not show the spikes in my military?

Quote:

NOTE: it got kinda laggy (which for me is unusual), but affected both sides.

That was some weird lag.

Although, I still think I was lacking in the HC department. No 8 jans and no 2 falcs sucked big time. Using resource shipments isn't quite easy

But of course, I had 20 sheep fattened at the end of the game


I am Rumour Kontrol.
Brtnboarder495
Skirmisher
posted 07-06-06 03:08 PM EDT (US)     2 / 34       
Excuses, excuses.

Gameranger: _NiGhThAwK_
Pale Horse
Skirmisher
posted 07-06-06 03:18 PM EDT (US)     3 / 34       
So you beat statistically inferior opponent and that indicates what?

NOOB'XPERT wannabe
timbo1390
Skirmisher
posted 07-06-06 03:23 PM EDT (US)     4 / 34       
pale i think they wre in an argument over strats on a previous thread, ender is trying to indicate his strat worked

Eso: Otis_
PR: 32 / 1980 on cuetech
somme
Skirmisher
posted 07-06-06 03:30 PM EDT (US)     5 / 34       
I beat LO12DS_Mist as well Why use exiled prince Mist?

ESO : Pcfreak8
"In theory, there is no difference between theory and practice, but in practice there is." -Jan L. A. van de Snepscheu
A pessimist is usually right and never disappointed.
Any history buff knows that nothing stops a cannon like a good uppercut. - BeatnikJoe
LO12DS_Mist
Skirmisher
posted 07-06-06 03:37 PM EDT (US)     6 / 34       

Quote:

Why use exiled prince Mist?

Was trying something new.

I try to incorporate something new in all my games...but that one obviously didn't work

Those damn dragoons against my strelets didn't help either.

Looks like I've lost 135 points in a week. Wonderful.


I am Rumour Kontrol.

[This message has been edited by LO12DS_Mist (edited 07-06-2006 @ 03:37 PM).]

Cancer of the Head
Skirmisher
(id: say1988)
posted 07-06-06 03:46 PM EDT (US)     7 / 34       

Quote:

Those damn dragoons against my strelets didn't help either.

Umm something is wrong with that statement, or The origional links. Just a minor error, but I asssume Mist just made a slight mistake.

That is unless Ottomans now have Strelets....

[This message has been edited by say1988 (edited 07-06-2006 @ 03:47 PM).]

timbo1390
Skirmisher
posted 07-06-06 03:54 PM EDT (US)     8 / 34       
^^^ i think he was referring to a game he played w/ somme

Eso: Otis_
PR: 32 / 1980 on cuetech
Ender_Ward
Skirmisher
posted 07-06-06 04:03 PM EDT (US)     9 / 34       

Quoted from Pale Horse:


and that indicates what?

That Mist plays alot better on the forums than he does on ESO.


"One wants to be loved, failing that admired, failing that feared, failing that hated and despised. One wants to instill in other people some form of emotion. The soul shudders before emptiness and wants contact, no matter the cost."
somme
Skirmisher
posted 07-06-06 04:27 PM EDT (US)     10 / 34       

Quote:

That Mist plays alot better on the forums than he does on ESO.

Did you really need a game to prove that? No one plays perfectly in real life

Looking at the game, Ender's macro isn't spectacular but his micro is very good.


ESO : Pcfreak8
"In theory, there is no difference between theory and practice, but in practice there is." -Jan L. A. van de Snepscheu
A pessimist is usually right and never disappointed.
Any history buff knows that nothing stops a cannon like a good uppercut. - BeatnikJoe
Solartinum
Skirmisher
posted 07-06-06 04:55 PM EDT (US)     11 / 34       
Bah, skill difference in game proves what about someone's ideas/strats?

Ender, I'd love to try an Otto mirror against you sometime; roughly same skill, and you being the one that inspired me to pick Ottos up and make a level 70 HC out of them. Not to mention using them beyond 2150, which I never did with my Germans :/

Edit: Hmm the context of this game seems to be about Ottos v Spanish. I haven't been reading the forums very much, but if that's the case, I'd be happy to try Otto FF against your Spain FF. I'll probably lose terribly but it may give a fairer comparison for whatever you're testing.

[This message has been edited by Solartinum (edited 07-06-2006 @ 04:58 PM).]

Ender_Ward
Skirmisher
posted 07-06-06 05:01 PM EDT (US)     12 / 34       

Quoted from Solartinum:


Bah, skill difference in game proves what about someone's ideas/strats?

It wasn't just about strats. It was also about skill. Mist kept claming in so many threads that he'd do this or do that, you know, being the perfect hindsight general. Proclaming that he would perform tactical maneuvers that 2200-2300 players even don't seem to make.

Quoted from Solartinum:


Ender, I'd love to try an Otto mirror against you sometime; roughly same skill, and you being the one that inspired me to pick Ottos up and make a level 70 HC out of them. Not to mention using them beyond 2150, which I never did with my Germans :/

Oh god anything but a mirror game. I'll play Spanish, or even Dutch, but I absolutely hate mirror games. It's kinda like both players only being able to play rock in a rock-paper-scissors game.

EDIT of my own:

Quoted from Solartinum:


Edit: Hmm the context of this game seems to be about Ottos v Spanish. I haven't been reading the forums very much, but if that's the case, I'd be happy to try Otto FF against your Spain FF. I'll probably lose terribly but it may give a fairer comparison for whatever you're testing.

That' be fine. Except the idea with Mist was to test Ottoman vs Spain in general, be it rush, FF or FI.
And I'd put my money on you, actually. I'm definitely not the better player here. I never was able to get past 2110 with my Ottomans.



"One wants to be loved, failing that admired, failing that feared, failing that hated and despised. One wants to instill in other people some form of emotion. The soul shudders before emptiness and wants contact, no matter the cost."

[This message has been edited by Ender_Ward (edited 07-06-2006 @ 05:05 PM).]

Takk
Skirmisher
(id: Luke_Feanor)
posted 07-06-06 05:13 PM EDT (US)     13 / 34       
Play nice, guys.

We should have a forum for rec threads like this soon. ^_^


Lucas is boss.
ddemers
Skirmisher
posted 07-06-06 05:14 PM EDT (US)     14 / 34       

Quote:

It wasn't just about strats. It was also about skill. Mist kept claming in so many threads that he'd do this or do that, you know, being the perfect hindsight general. Proclaming that he would perform tactical maneuvers that 2200-2300 players even don't seem to make.


Most of us knew he was full of crap anyways. Most 1800+ people know WHAT TO DO, just CAN'T DO IT, which is why they are below 2.2k. SOme are just more vocal then others .


[EEX] Nullpointer
Canadian Gamer
TOO_Saruman
Skirmisher
posted 07-06-06 05:19 PM EDT (US)     15 / 34       
Um.......I beat Mist too

ESO: empirejoao3
Clan:Proud
"You know the world is going crazy when the best golfer in the world is black, the best rapper is white, and the tallest guy in the NBA is Chinese" LOL!!!
LO12DS_Mist
Skirmisher
posted 07-06-06 05:27 PM EDT (US)     16 / 34       

Quote:

Proclaming that he would perform tactical maneuvers that 2200-2300 players even don't seem to make.

I didn't say I would perform it, I said thats what he should have done. In fact, I look back and see things I should have done myself.

In fact, I did perform some of those moves on you, but I was disadvantaged having crappy shipments (no 8 jans, no 2 falcs. How far can you really get with only mercs, resource shipments, a fort and sheep in age 3?.) Compare to your HC. You had 2 falcs, both lancer shipments, and some other stuff I've forgotten now.

If you noticed, when the lancers came around the TC while the skirms came in, I tried moving the abus forward. Due to the lag, I couldn't drag a box around them (it would attempt dragging it, then jerk and stop...)

And, then you have the fact that dragoons are hell of a problem for Ottomans and Russians. What I was saying to do was go dragoons+skirms entirely, with falcs, possibly, and only ship lancers, not make them. The dragoons were the main problem, not the lancers. (which was my point earlier, correct?)

Quote:

Ender's macro isn't spectacular but his micro is very good.

Yeah, that lag was tough. I think it was easier for him to micro because he had more units, the units were of a higher quality, and they were mixed (IE swiss pikes+lancers melee, skirms and dragoons ranged.)

That was a nice game though, I'd like to play more. Albeit I have lost 130 points on cuetech now.


I am Rumour Kontrol.
synch
Skirmisher
posted 07-06-06 05:33 PM EDT (US)     17 / 34       
First, I like to say the ad at the top of the download page was quite enticing.

Second.. LO12DS_Mist is 1889......

Third: What the hell were both of you doing in that game? I never use the fort, LO12DS_Mist must've been going for a 2 TC boom or something, except he made a lot of jans for fortress, chose the wrong strat too..

Was this Otto FF vs Spanish FF? Or??

I am utterly confused.

Real2002
Skirmisher
posted 07-06-06 05:47 PM EDT (US)     18 / 34       

Quote:

For all you Mist "fans".

They exist? He argues with most everyone I see...

Anyway, I still want to watch the game.

Quote:

We should have a forum for rec threads like this soon. ^_^

Whoo Whooooop!


ESO: Steel_Reign

*Doles out the harshness*

LO12DS_Mist
Skirmisher
posted 07-06-06 05:51 PM EDT (US)     19 / 34       

Quote:

Second.. LO12DS_Mist is 1889......

1846, actually. Well, now it is. Lost 150 points in a week, holy crap.

Quote:

I never use the fort, LO12DS_Mist must've been going for a 2 TC boom or something, except he made a lot of jans for fortress, chose the wrong strat too..

I had 3 TCs....trying something new again (with exiled prince)

Seems only way you can win is with a build order, really...and then improvise after 8 minutes.


I am Rumour Kontrol.
BloTo
Skirmisher
posted 07-06-06 05:59 PM EDT (US)     20 / 34       
mist fans? mist is having some lame quote war in just about every thread on this forum...

besides... who cares? you > mist, NOT spain > ottoman. your beating a guy who is statistcly worse than you, and was using a crummy hc... what does this prove exactly?


Eso: scuzz
Ender_Ward
Skirmisher
posted 07-06-06 06:16 PM EDT (US)     21 / 34       

Quoted from BloTo:


mist fans? mist is having some lame quote war in just about every thread on this forum...

Did everyone miss the quotes in "fans"?

Quoted from BloTo:


besides... who cares? you > mist, NOT spain > ottoman. your beating a guy who is statistcly worse than you, and was using a crummy hc... what does this prove exactly?

This wasn't about Spain being better than Ottoman. This was about Mist talking tough on the forums and then being unable to back it up ingame.

He said "try me" in game. I did. This is the result.

What this "proves" is that Mist plays armchair general so very well on the forums, just not quite as well on ESO.

And what crummy HC? He had a level 46 HC (only 10 levels lower than mine). He had the Merc card (and use one), he had both Spahi cards. The only cards he didn't have were 8 Jans and 2 Falconets, which would've made so much difference versus Highlander, Skirmishers and Dragoons (not). Does anyone who actually watched the game believes another 8 Jans and 2 Falconets would've saved him?

That said, if you know what you're doing with Ottomans, how do you get to level 46 and manage to NOT get the 8 Jans and 2 Falconets cards?

It's not my problem he chose a totally confused deck (no church card, no abus shipments). He has better ones. I looked. Fine tuning decks is part of the skill of this game.

Quoted from Mist:


In fact, I did perform some of those moves on you

Like ... what?

You mean like wasting food on Spahi on TEXAS and against a civ with Dragoons?

You mean like building nearly no Abus Guns and not upgrading them with CIR against Highlanders, Swiss Pikes and Skirmishers?

Like wasting gold on Manchu?

Just what were those awesome 2200-like moves?


"One wants to be loved, failing that admired, failing that feared, failing that hated and despised. One wants to instill in other people some form of emotion. The soul shudders before emptiness and wants contact, no matter the cost."
LO12DS_Mist
Skirmisher
posted 07-06-06 06:42 PM EDT (US)     22 / 34       

Quote:

Like ... what?

You mean like wasting food on Spahi on TEXAS and against a civ with Dragoons?

You mean like building nearly no Abus Guns and not upgrading them with CIR against Highlanders, Swiss Pikes and Skirmishers?

Like wasting gold on Manchu?

Just what were those awesome 2200-like moves?

Wasting food on spahi? Those 3 spahi killed your falcs before they did anything.

And note I sent 3 spahi, not 5, because I knew I wouldn't be able to fully use 5 spahi, and I didn't have the food for 5 anyway.

Nearly no abus guns? What the hell? I made 22 abus guns, compare that to your 2200 opponent NIGHTdream who made 7.

Right, nearly no abus guns.

Manchu? I'm going to send mamelukes against highlanders and dragoons, right? Or corsairs? Manchu were for the lancers and dragoons. Ottomans don't get many decent dragoon counters. They can take care of lancers, but dragoons...

Quote:

He said "try me" in game. I did. This is the result.

You told me to use Ottomans. I wanted to use Russians, and I even told you before game I was lacking certain cards.

Quote:

What this "proves" is that Mist plays armchair general so very well on the forums, just not quite as well on ESO.

It simply proves you can beat me.

You haven't proven that a Spanish player will always beat an Ottoman player on level terms.

Quote:

It's not my problem he chose a totally confused deck (no church card, no abus shipments). He has better ones. I looked. Fine tuning decks is part of the skill of this game.

Church card?

Thats the mose useless church card in the game. Oh right, you already know that.

No abus shipments...yes, that was a disadvantage. I actually did fine-tune my deck to include 5 abus, but, since the map was Texas, and I hadn't played on it often, and since I was hurrying to pick a deck, since I was delaying my col. time, I simply picked a land deck that seemed fit. They're nearly all the same, except some age 4 differences and the 5 abus card.

Quote:

That said, if you know what you're doing with Ottomans, how do you get to level 46 and manage to NOT get the 8 Jans and 2 Falconets cards?

I picked Industrial and resource cards.

I play half 2v2s and team games, so I don't always pick the best cards for 1v1. Getting 8 janissaries and 2 falcs actually has been on my agenda for a week now, but I have only gained 1 level and I used that to get the 11 janissary card (one step away)


I am Rumour Kontrol.

[This message has been edited by LO12DS_Mist (edited 07-06-2006 @ 06:43 PM).]

Ender_Ward
Skirmisher
posted 07-06-06 07:29 PM EDT (US)     23 / 34       

Quote:


Wasting food on spahi? Those 3 spahi killed your falcs before they did anything.

Because I forgot to pull up my Dragoons (that was pretty much my major mistake of the game)? Congrats, 5 Abus Guns could've done the same job. Those Spahi sure did alot of rading later though.

You don't use Spahi on civs with Dragoons and War Wagons. You build Abus Guns to deal with Falconets. As it was, your Spahi killed one villager. One.
If not for my mistake with the Dragoons not being up far enough, those Spahi would've been wasted entirely.

Quote:


Nearly no abus guns? What the hell? I made 22 abus guns, compare that to your 2200 opponent NIGHTdream who made 7.

He was 2150. He rushed, not FFed. You never had enough Abus Guns in any engagement to make a difference. Instead you spent resources on utterly useless units like Manchu.
22 Abus Guns in a 22 minute game is quite low for an Ottoman who has FFed.

Quote:


Manchu? I'm going to send mamelukes against highlanders and dragoons, right? Or corsairs? Manchu were for the lancers and dragoons. Ottomans don't get many decent dragoon counters. They can take care of lancers, but dragoons...

Manchu were a waste of gold. You don't build Manchu to deal with Lancers, you build Janissaries, lot of Janissaries (with maybe a few Cav Archers for effect, to soak Skirmisher fire). The idea is to save most of your gold for Abus Guns.

You build lots of Abus Guns and Jans versus Dragoons, they are your only hope. Manchu don't do crap to Dragoons. Spending 1000 gold on +10 Abus Guns would've helped alot more than 9 Manchu. They even kill Lancers too slowly. On the other hand, get 20 Abus Guns (18, actually) in a group and they one shot kill a Lancer.

That aside, you should never have sent Manchu for the simple reason that my deck contained Swiss Pikes and Highlanders.


Quote:


You told me to use Ottomans. I wanted to use Russians, and I even told you before game I was lacking certain cards.

You claimed you would do better than a 2150 Ottoman and offered to prove it. I wasn't about to let you have an easy way out when you suddently wanted to play Russians instead.

Quote:


Church card?

Thats the mose useless church card in the game. Oh right, you already know that.

You must not realise I meant the Advanced Church techs card, not the cheaper church techs card. Otherwise you'd be making one of the n00biest statements I've read in some time.

But speaking of the cheaper church techs card ... you boom with 3 TCs a not use it? It's in nearly all my Ottoman FF and FI decks. Infact it's an intergral part of the church FI. Most useless card in the game my arse.

Quote:


I simply picked a land deck that seemed fit. They're nearly all the same, except some age 4 differences and the 5 abus card.

One's decks shouldn't be nearly all the same. Decks need to be fine tuned to the map and civ. In your case, you had an even greater advantage, you could've picked a deck that was also fine tuned to the player (me).

Quote:


I picked Industrial and resource cards.

I play half 2v2s and team games, so I don't always pick the best cards for 1v1. Getting 8 janissaries and 2 falcs actually has been on my agenda for a week now, but I have only gained 1 level and I used that to get the 11 janissary card (one step away)

That must be one of the most asinine excuses I've read. You have no use for 2 Falconets or 8 Janissaries in team games now? Ooookay ...

You had 46 levels to pick those cards. The fact that you did not, speaks volumes.


P.S.
Another one of your brilliant moves was to build a Commanche trade post for some reason and then actually attempt to train Commanche Horse Archers (good thing you stopped at 4), which are even worse than Cav Archers.
I would understand if it was Lakota (Dog Soldiers), but Commanche? *shakes head*


"One wants to be loved, failing that admired, failing that feared, failing that hated and despised. One wants to instill in other people some form of emotion. The soul shudders before emptiness and wants contact, no matter the cost."
Brtnboarder495
Skirmisher
posted 07-06-06 07:59 PM EDT (US)     24 / 34       
Heh, it seems that Saruman is now running from me, ever sinced he resigned before the two minute mark in the QS match. Are you scared or something? I'd love to play you, especially after you called me "the fag from HG"

Put your money where your mouth is.


Gameranger: _NiGhThAwK_
KingSteve3721
Skirmisher
posted 07-06-06 08:44 PM EDT (US)     25 / 34       
yeah saruman is...odd...and i'd love to play him if he didnt go to HG.
i dont play anyone from HG, because if i get my ass kicked, i'll hear about it for the rest of my life.

anyways, i have to admit mist is better on paper, and ive played alot of games with him, but he isnt the greatest. (dont hurt me)

ill edit this when i watch the rec.


[FeaR]{KingSteve3721}
“I love my name of honor, more than I fear death.”- Julius Caesar
"The Pope! How many divisions has he got?"- Joseph Stalin
"The hand that gives is above the hand that takes. Money has no motherland; financiers are without patriotism and without decency; their sole object is gain."- Napoleon Bonaparte
"Dogs, would you live forever?"- Frederick the Great (addressing retreating Prussians at the Battle of Kolin)
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