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Age of Empires III Heaven » Forums » General Discussions » Is it fair?
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Topic Subject:Is it fair?
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Angel Walker
Skirmisher
(id: Just a player)
posted 08-01-06 08:21 PM EDT (US)         
Well, now that patch 1.08 is out, I've taken my time to see its effects on the Proto File. While I was there I noticed something which probably most of you know due to MNbob's unit chart.

Abus gun did not get the "Skirmisher like-unit" bonus. Even though they are classified as Light Infantry, they didn't get 1.5 vs Light Cavalry. If that, they would do 30 Damage every shot (or 3 seconds) since they already have 0.5 vs all Cavalry... this would apply to all Light Cavalry since Abus' damage ignore armor.

But I've checked and, for my surprise, Longbowman DO have 1.5 vs Light Cavalry. I thought it was kind unfair... this unit has been claimed OP a thousand times, it does full damage to everything (17 dmg/1.5 seconds) even though it is Light Infantry. Like if that wasn't enough. They were already the best counter to all Light Cavalry, but now they totally own them.

Abus Gun: 20 damage/3 seconds
Longbowman: 51 damage/3 seconds

That means 35.7 damage to the highest armoured Light Cavalry: the Dragoon. Longbowman cost 33% less than an Abus (100 vs 150), they train 15 seconds faster and come from the Barracks. Of course, they cost 1 less Pop. Besides that, they don't have 0.5 vs all Cavalry like Abus gun! Their base damage is already higher than a Skirmisher... Although they do slighty less damage due to aim time, that is way more damage than every Light Infantry. TWICE as much as a Skirmisher (more expensive unit) to Light Cavalry.

Why do I think its wrong? Many reasons... First Longbowman already do full damage to all units, now it does way more damage also to Light Cavalry. The problem is not that they got the bonus too... but that it is way more effective in their hands than it is for any other Light Infantry. Abus Gun also did the lowest damage/pop against Light Cavalry from all Light Infantry. Technically it is also completely wrong, since this was supposed to affect all Light Infantry, there is no technical reason that explain why the Abus Gun shouldn't get it.

And don't come saying that "OMFG Ottos didn't get a boost cuz they pwn in 1.08!!" because all civilizations should be able to counter all units effectivelly. Its not like if I don't rush my enemy should get the chance to abuse of a unit... Kind of odd that War Wagons + Caracole (18 Range) is OP only against only one civ, uh?

Notice that this is not a complain because I got owned in a game or something, because I didn't. And usually I can handle with Light Cavalry, but this is tottaly based on units stats and their abilities to counter.

So my question is: Is it fair that Longbowmen get 1.5 vs Light Cavalry but Abus don't? Discuss


ESO - Walker

>> Napoleonic Era --> Visit their Homepage!
"Holy *****" > Thunder (Ensemble Studios)

Retired from AoE3. But I do play AoK HD in Steam now and then.

[This message has been edited by Just a player (edited 08-01-2006 @ 08:22 PM).]

AuthorReplies:
Angel Walker
Skirmisher
(id: Just a player)
posted 08-02-06 04:17 PM EDT (US)     51 / 64       

Quote:

Okay, so how in the world would giving them the 1.5x bonus against LC even affect their "OPness" against HC?

Well... Its not like we could give Longbowman 10x Light Cavalry and say it doesn't make a difference, because no one uses Light Cavalry vs them. No one used Falconets vs War Wagons but did you see when ES boosted those things?

The real discussion here is that is it fair Longbowman getting it and Abus don't? As I said I can live with Abus not having it... but Longbowman having it is kind of exagerated for me. I personally don't have problem vs Light Cavalry as Ottomans, since they can't own my Janissaries I'm ok. But Its ridiculous that 10 Lbow shipment kill War Wagons 4x faster than 5 Abus...

Also there is no reason I can see for such thing. There is no technical reason, since both are Light Infantry. There is also no true Gameplay reason such as "Abus didn't get it 'cause it would make them OP" - because Longbowman already do better than Abus (even than a boosted Abus)... If something its Longbowman that shouldn't get it.

Hope ES doesn't decide to make Light Infantry good vs Artillery now...


ESO - Walker

>> Napoleonic Era --> Visit their Homepage!
"Holy *****" > Thunder (Ensemble Studios)

Retired from AoE3. But I do play AoK HD in Steam now and then.
Real2002
Skirmisher
posted 08-02-06 04:18 PM EDT (US)     52 / 64       
It wouldn't. But the point is the they could handle both light and heavy cavalry pretty well already because of their high rate of fire before this patch. As Walker showed, they do an insane amount of damage to light cav now with that bonus.

Quote:

And AIM is for private conversations, this is a public forum, not just for two people.

........................... You miss the point of everything. I was pointing out that we didn't need to call each other "retard" to try to get our point across. I didn't asy anywhere that nobody else should be talking in this thread.

Quote:

And I was rather enjoying this very civil and model discussion about a certain aspect of gameplay. It was a nice break from all the flame/quote wars. Oh well...

I apologize. Once again it was me that didn't just ignore it. I'm done...


ESO: Steel_Reign

*Doles out the harshness*

xSephirothx
Skirmisher
(id: xMatt the Greatx)
posted 08-02-06 04:25 PM EDT (US)     53 / 64       

Quote:

I apologize. Once again it was me that didn't just ignore it. I'm done...

Nah, you're fine. I meant your discussion with Adam42 should be a model for future debates on these forums.

As for the topic, I don't think longbows needed that boost. They already did well enough vs. LC, now they just slaughter them. It's like putting strelets (LC) vs. Lancers with cabelleros (longbows) now...

Ender_Ward
Skirmisher
posted 08-02-06 04:55 PM EDT (US)     54 / 64       

Quoted from __Sephiroth__:


As for the topic, I don't think longbows needed that boost. They already did well enough vs. LC, now they just slaughter them. It's like putting strelets (LC) vs. Lancers with cabelleros (longbows) now...

Quoted for truth.

British already had the best answer to War Wagons and Dragoons. With the War Wagon nerf and a general German nerf, Longbows really didn't need a damage bonus versus ranged cavalry. They already recieved an indirect bonus by having a 6-10 range advantage over them.
And it's not like British players ever had trouble with Dragoon spam either ...


"One wants to be loved, failing that admired, failing that feared, failing that hated and despised. One wants to instill in other people some form of emotion. The soul shudders before emptiness and wants contact, no matter the cost."
Braveheart_LDS
Skirmisher
posted 08-02-06 06:25 PM EDT (US)     55 / 64       
maybe you are right on the LC attack boost, but otherwise nerfing them goes too far in my books. Even returning the autofire range. But I do no think that abus should have this bonus either. I'm LDS/LSD depending on how much you like me, and that's the way the cookie crumbles.

lol im a ▓▓▓▓▓▓▓ for copying ▓▓▓▓▓▓▓
Liscious
Skirmisher
posted 08-02-06 07:44 PM EDT (US)     56 / 64       
Stretlets also did not recieve the ranged cav multiplier :[

I had thought they needed it the most since dragoons fare so well against them and take forever to kill and those WW wont die any faster either :[

20 sec longer FF time is also canceled out by 10 sec longer to produce grenadiers.

any civ should be able to afford a cheaper stables or barraks now and defend through a 20 sec longer FF quite easily

Angel Walker
Skirmisher
(id: Just a player)
posted 08-02-06 08:14 PM EDT (US)     57 / 64       

Quote:

Stretlets also did not recieve the ranged cav multiplier :[

They did. These multipliers ar not displayed in game, but they are there...


ESO - Walker

>> Napoleonic Era --> Visit their Homepage!
"Holy *****" > Thunder (Ensemble Studios)

Retired from AoE3. But I do play AoK HD in Steam now and then.
Brtnboarder495
Skirmisher
posted 08-02-06 08:52 PM EDT (US)     58 / 64       
^Yea, it's really beginning to annoy me infact, I hope ES fixes this minor detail in 1.09.

Gameranger: _NiGhThAwK_
Liscious
Skirmisher
posted 08-02-06 09:15 PM EDT (US)     59 / 64       
oh yes, i see they do the damage anyway even tho not displayed.

also in the editor I took an abus against a dragoon and the abus did 20 damage a shot. Then I took it against a cav archers w/ no ranged resist and same 20 damage. it appears the 30% ranged resist on dragoon doesnt apply to abus?

Real2002
Skirmisher
posted 08-02-06 09:22 PM EDT (US)     60 / 64       
^ Nope. The abus does siege damage instead of regular ranged damage so the ranged resistance does not apply.

ESO: Steel_Reign

*Doles out the harshness*

xSephirothx
Skirmisher
(id: xMatt the Greatx)
posted 08-03-06 00:07 AM EDT (US)     61 / 64       
I also hope they rearrange the options list when you right click on a friends name back to the way it was. I'm getting sick of removing all my friends list over and over again >_<
KingSteve3721
Skirmisher
posted 08-03-06 00:29 AM EDT (US)     62 / 64       

Quote:

^ Nope. The abus does siege damage instead of regular ranged damage so the ranged resistance does not apply.

just to clear that up, siege damage overpoweres resistance

or in other words, resistance has no effect if a unit with siege damage attacks them.


[FeaR]{KingSteve3721}
“I love my name of honor, more than I fear death.”- Julius Caesar
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"The hand that gives is above the hand that takes. Money has no motherland; financiers are without patriotism and without decency; their sole object is gain."- Napoleon Bonaparte
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LO12DS_Mist
Skirmisher
posted 08-03-06 08:48 AM EDT (US)     63 / 64       
Thats exactly what he said.

Who's the person who said abus don't need the bonus? They deal the least damage for the cost to light cavalry now. Before, you could simply mass dragoons, add in a few HC/falcs some skirm shipments, mercs, and own the Otto.

Now...

You can still do that. Wtf?


I am Rumour Kontrol.
Brtnboarder495
Skirmisher
posted 08-03-06 11:15 AM EDT (US)     64 / 64       

Quote:

Hope ES doesn't decide to make Light Infantry good vs Artillery now...

They did, it's called Abus, most likely why they didn't get the LC bonus.


Gameranger: _NiGhThAwK_
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