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Age of Empires III Heaven » Forums » General Discussions » Ottoman Fast Fortress(mainly Spahi) Hugely Overated?
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Topic Subject:Ottoman Fast Fortress(mainly Spahi) Hugely Overated?
somme
Skirmisher
posted 09-28-06 12:39 PM EDT (US)         
What does an Ottoman really get from going to the fortress age very quickly. Economically they get very little as even with multiple tcs they still have to get expensive mosque upgrades. Better is to stay in colonial for water or tps.

Military wise you have 5 spahi, 3 spahi, 5 mamelukes, 5 abus, 8 jans and 2 falcs.

It is my opinion that out of all of the fast fortresses, the Ottomans is easiest to kill while still in colonial.

Spahi die very quickly to a decent number of pikes or muskets. 4 age up abus are easily dispatched by a little focus firing with muskets. They do get falconets but they do not really get enough of a meatshield to protect them from a decent number of cavalry. Most of their powerful shipments such as Spahi and Mamelukes cost to ship so if you are in colonial you can often stop him stockipiling the resources for them.

It is only really worthwhile for an Otto to go fort when they can afford to immdeiately take full advantage of extra tcs, veteran upgrades and their mercs.


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AuthorReplies:
mentork
Skirmisher
posted 09-28-06 12:45 PM EDT (US)     1 / 25       

Quote:

5 mamelukes


You just dissed the only thing ports have in fort ;_;

Well, them and ronin...

Angel Walker
Skirmisher
(id: Just a player)
posted 09-28-06 12:47 PM EDT (US)     2 / 25       

Quote:

It is only really worthwhile for an Otto to go fort when they can afford to immdeiately take full advantage of extra tcs, veteran upgrades and their mercs.

Isn't that what they do?

Quote:

Spahi die very quickly to a decent number of pikes or muskets. 4 age up abus are easily dispatched by a little focus firing with muskets. They do get falconets but they do not really get enough of a meatshield to protect them from a decent number of cavalry. Most of their powerful shipments such as Spahi and Mamelukes cost to ship so if you are in colonial you can often stop him stockipiling the resources for them.

You could apply it to any FF. Spahi for sure are harder to kill than any other Cavalry, and 4 Age Abus are usually better than 6 Skirmishers. Stopping an Otto FF in Colonial is completely insane unless you are fish booming.

If you do that, they can always reach Industrial and get 5 GBs by the time you're "stopping " them on Colonial

Otto FF was the only thing I did before, and hell, it rox


ESO - Walker

>> Napoleonic Era --> Visit their Homepage!
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Adam42
Skirmisher
posted 09-28-06 01:46 PM EDT (US)     3 / 25       
That was in 1.07, walker, when everyone FFed... the ottoman FF was an overrated strategy THEN, let alone now. There's not much point in an ottoman going fortress so fast nowadays because they don't get enough to benefit for how long it takes.
Ender_Ward
Skirmisher
posted 09-28-06 03:13 PM EDT (US)     4 / 25       

Quoted from Somme:

Ottoman Fast Fortress(mainly Spahi) Hugely Overated?

Yes.

Doing a Fast Fortress is not a good idea.
You're better off setting up a Silk Road trade route (and rush) or a fishing boom and then hitting Fortress by 9-12 minutes with Exiled Prince. Why? Cause instead of being able to just use 5 Spahi and 2 Falconets, you'll be able to afford something like ~20 Veteran Jans, 4-5 Falconets (including the shipment), 5 Spahi and 10-15 Abus Guns. This combined arms force can handle almost anything in early-mid Fortress. Even mercs.

It's analogous to the Dutch setting up 3-4 Banks and then FFing to pump Falconets and Ruyters.
Set up a good economy, then use the advantage of Exiled Prince to be in Fortress reasonably fast.


"One wants to be loved, failing that admired, failing that feared, failing that hated and despised. One wants to instill in other people some form of emotion. The soul shudders before emptiness and wants contact, no matter the cost."
Canadian_Bro
Skirmisher
posted 09-28-06 06:37 PM EDT (US)     5 / 25       
Personally I disagree with every single one of you.

Trick the opponent. Build a forward barracks, outpost. They will wall. While they are wasting their time preparing for a rush (mostly anti-infantry such as lbows) you go to fortress...set the delivry point to the forward base and then send either falcs or spahi. You have map control and are in age three.


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N_E_Patriots
Skirmisher
posted 09-28-06 06:42 PM EDT (US)     6 / 25       
I agree somme, an ottoman who FF or FI is easier to kill, the jannisary is the only thing that is really strong about them.

Spahi are limited, great bombards are too slow, hussars suck.

A large number of jannies is hard to beat. 8 jannies and 4 abus can be taken care of with pikes for buildings and skirms for units.


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ultimitsu
Skirmisher
posted 09-28-06 10:09 PM EDT (US)     7 / 25       

Quote:

That was in 1.07, walker, when everyone FFed...

that was 1.08, he dropped port for otto as soon as 1.08 released. he got 2260 in 1v1 with otto FF.

(am I right walker?)

Quote:

Spahi die very quickly to a decent number of pikes or muskets. 4 age up abus are easily dispatched by a little focus firing with muskets.

6 skirms + 6 cuirs for example will die just as fast, if not faster.

so is 6 skirms + 9 uhlans + 5~6 made

so is 4 hussars + 5 lancers + 7~8 skirms made..

you can say that about any FF's age up troop + 1 shipment + 1k food worth of troops.

Quote:

It is only really worthwhile for an Otto to go fort when they can afford to immdeiately take full advantage of extra tcs, veteran upgrades and their mercs

that is exactly what they all do. which had always made it worthwhile.

[This message has been edited by ultimitsu (edited 09-29-2006 @ 00:51 AM).]

exe163
Skirmisher
posted 09-28-06 11:47 PM EDT (US)     8 / 25       
I played a otto once, me as british, he FFed 6:30 (1.08) 5 spahi in 6:50. i made pike ( the only thing that counter them in age 2 ), they ran, raid vill and lbow, pike came, they ran.

i go fortress ( after spahi run around in my base like crazy ) and hes in industrial.i start making army of goon and cannons, he attack me with 5 GB (church card) and 10+ stickman kill all my cannons. and my goon try to melee cannons, all dead. after few culv is complete, i toke down 1-2 GB, spahi toke them out along with few pike that 'protects' them

gg....

TheRomans
Skirmisher
posted 09-29-06 00:51 AM EDT (US)     9 / 25       
I agree that Ottoman FF is overrated.

10 pikes + 45 longbows > 5 spahis

Yea you will lose some pikes, 4-8, from spahis, but think what he just lost, a whole shipment and quite a bit of food.

ultimitsu
Skirmisher
posted 09-29-06 00:54 AM EDT (US)     10 / 25       

Quote:

10 pikes + 45 longbows > 5 spahis

while you at it, dont you say 1000 pikes > 5 spahi?

or 2000000 longbows > 5 spahi?

an EPFF->spahi gets them out around 6:30, i'd like to see anyone with 10 pikes and 45 longbows by that point.

poita
Skirmisher
posted 09-29-06 06:35 AM EDT (US)     11 / 25       

Quote:

or 2000000 longbows > 5 spahi?

Actually 200000 longbows = 5 spahi because your computer will crash and the winner will be more or less random :P


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xSephirothx
Skirmisher
(id: xMatt the Greatx)
posted 09-29-06 06:39 AM EDT (US)     12 / 25       
You can get around 25 lbows by 6:30 if you really wanted to. Then 5 more by the time Spahi get to your base. 25 lbows + 5 pikes > 5 spahi
Adam42
Skirmisher
posted 09-29-06 01:13 PM EDT (US)     13 / 25       

Quote:

6 skirms + 6 cuirs for example will die just as fast, if not faster.

so is 6 skirms + 9 uhlans + 5~6 made

so is 4 hussars + 5 lancers + 7~8 skirms made..

you can say that about any FF's age up troop + 1 shipment + 1k food worth of troops.

6+ skirms are hardly "dispatched with a little focus firing of muskets"... o_O

Lol and I have no idea how many muskets 8 skirms+5 lancers+4 hussars will kill but it's a very high number... same with the cuir and the uhlan versions. Nowhere near as easy to kill as 5 spahi and 4 abus.

Ender_Ward
Skirmisher
posted 09-29-06 01:17 PM EDT (US)     14 / 25       
Yep. Abus and Spahi are all firepower, no durability. Extremely vulnerable to focus fire from high damage units.

"One wants to be loved, failing that admired, failing that feared, failing that hated and despised. One wants to instill in other people some form of emotion. The soul shudders before emptiness and wants contact, no matter the cost."
Luckyass
Skirmisher
posted 09-29-06 01:26 PM EDT (US)     15 / 25       
i love spahis
Angel Walker
Skirmisher
(id: Just a player)
posted 09-29-06 03:06 PM EDT (US)     16 / 25       

Quote:

that was 1.08, he dropped port for otto as soon as 1.08 released. he got 2260 in 1v1 with otto FF.

(am I right walker?)

Yes you are. I'm not sure when I started, but I got to 2260 (overall) and 2220 1vs1 mainly FFing with Ottos. If I hadn't rush, I would probably be 2300

I stopped Ottomans because it got a little repetitive and started France and, after a few weeks, got back to Portugal. My cuetech dropped aroudn 100 points... Otto FF is very powerfull, with or without the Silk Road crazy.

Quote:

Lol and I have no idea how many muskets 8 skirms+5 lancers+4 hussars will kill but it's a very high number... same with the cuir and the uhlan versions. Nowhere near as easy to kill as 5 spahi and 4 abus.

Are you saying that Spahis are better or worse than those versions? My english is not that good

The strenght of the Spahi is that they can hit very, very early. Ottos still have the fastest FF (don't even need Exiled Prince for that) and 5 Spahis arrive in 40 secs. A Cuirassier takes 60 minutes just to be trained. Also, Ottomans will have more shipments than anyone but Spain without hurting their FF for a single sec (early TP).

Just as an example...

Quote:

8 skirms+5 lancers+4 hussars

That needs a Spanish FF + 1 shipment + 8 trained Skirmishers. A Spanish FF is, for sure, slower than a Ottoman one. Then he still needs to make 8 Skirms to get that - what is over a minute. Before the first 5 are trained 5 Spahis are arriving at your base already. Spahis also take a hell lot of melee infantry. They jsut suck vs ranged units (such as Dragoon) which isn't something that you can get while aging or with a politician.

Not that you must have Spahis. FFing with vet Jan spam + Falcs support is still a very good combo.


ESO - Walker

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[This message has been edited by Just a player (edited 09-29-2006 @ 03:08 PM).]

N_E_Patriots
Skirmisher
posted 09-29-06 03:35 PM EDT (US)     17 / 25       
I think what people fail to realise is that, ottomans, like any other civ can be rushed in a FF if they dont build enough units to counter. Jannies cost too many resources but ottomans HAVE to build them if they are attacked.

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ultimitsu
Skirmisher
posted 09-29-06 05:14 PM EDT (US)     18 / 25       

Quote:

6+ skirms are hardly "dispatched with a little focus firing of muskets"... o_O

4 abus have combined 1040 HP against ranged, 6 skirms have combined 1234 HP against ranged, difference is about 20%. thats extra 20% of "little focus firing"

on the attack side 4 abus guns do 160 ranged damage against all infantry, 6 skirms do 180 against HI but a hell lot less against LI, like strelets and muskts.

Quote:


Lol and I have no idea how many muskets 8 skirms+5 lancers+4 hussars will kill but it's a very high number... same with the cuir and the uhlan versions. Nowhere near as easy to kill as 5 spahi and 4 abus.

5 spahis easily kill more infantry than 6 cuirs or 5 lancer + 4 hussar, or 15 uhlans.

realistically 7 skirms is closer to 1000 food worth of VS.

besides, the whole "stay in colonial and make x number of muskts to stop an FF" is a very bad idea, i dont know is there is any of you here actually does it. all it takes is for spahi and abus to retreat for 40 seconds than come back with 10 jans made + 2 falc shipped.

Angel Walker
Skirmisher
(id: Just a player)
posted 09-29-06 05:37 PM EDT (US)     19 / 25       

Quote:

I think what people fail to realise is that, ottomans, like any other civ can be rushed in a FF if they dont build enough units to counter. Jannies cost too many resources but ottomans HAVE to build them if they are attacked.

Yes and, like you said, it applies to every civ.

The difference is that:

1- Ottos can FF faster than anyone
2- Ottos have more shipmens to spare (And good shipments... 5 Jans and 3 Hussars are better vs rushes than Spain 6/7 Rods)
3- Ottos can have Spahis. The difference between spahis and any other shipped cavalry is that you get the equivalent of two Age 3 Shipments in a single shipment... Its like you got 9 Lancers for a shipment + 1000 Food rather than 5 and 4 for 2 shipments.

Besides, they are VERY cost effective. 5 spahis could beat any other Melee Cavalry Mercenary (and they arrive faster and are cheaper).

And Ottos own anyone in Colonial but Russia. Its not like forcing them not to FF is a great option...


ESO - Walker

>> Napoleonic Era --> Visit their Homepage!
"Holy *****" > Thunder (Ensemble Studios)

Retired from AoE3. But I do play AoK HD in Steam now and then.
mentork
Skirmisher
posted 09-29-06 06:04 PM EDT (US)     20 / 25       

Quote:

5 spahis could beat any other Melee Cavalry Mercenary


Mamelukes can take down spahi any day!

Well, spahi cost food, kill most infantry better, and raid better. But if it's a one on one fight i'd put my bet on mamelukes.

Angel Walker
Skirmisher
(id: Just a player)
posted 09-29-06 08:41 PM EDT (US)     21 / 25       

Quote:

Mamelukes can take down spahi any day!

No they don't... maybe in 1vs1, but not in 5vs5.


ESO - Walker

>> Napoleonic Era --> Visit their Homepage!
"Holy *****" > Thunder (Ensemble Studios)

Retired from AoE3. But I do play AoK HD in Steam now and then.
ultimitsu
Skirmisher
posted 09-30-06 01:26 PM EDT (US)     22 / 25       
the only merc cav can beat 5 spahi is 6 hackapells. and even that is no reliable.
XploSionS
Skirmisher
posted 10-01-06 06:12 AM EDT (US)     23 / 25       
... i herd u say 5 mams take down 5 spahis:S 1st of all u didnt mension the agethis was in... if its in imperial or maby even industial u will get owned... imperial spahis= 1350 hp (100 less then mam) 63 hand attack (targets 3) and a mamluke has 1450 hp and 44 hand attack (not sure about their hand attack :P) but its plain and simple... spahi own. one time i was playing against comp on expert... i got to imperial massed an army of 34 spahis and raided him so badly... 34 spahis own all
jayce
Skirmisher
posted 10-03-06 08:37 AM EDT (US)     24 / 25       
You can safely assume he means fort, any discussion involvinf imperial is reserved for no rush games. Doesn't really matter. Saphi beat them in every age. I was suprised to find that out one day playing as ports.

Ultimitsu, u said skirms have ~ 1200 resistance to range. The thing is that abus do seige damage therefore negating the range resistance. Thats why cassadors are so terrible vs abus.

ultimitsu
Skirmisher
posted 10-03-06 01:25 PM EDT (US)     25 / 25       
please read carefully.

that was not a comparison of abus VS skirms

that was a comparison of abus VS muskts and skirms VS muskts.

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