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Age of Empires III Heaven » Forums » General Discussions » Longbows are easily countered
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Topic Subject:Longbows are easily countered
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MockHamill
Skirmisher
posted 09-30-06 06:50 AM EDT (US)         
It seems that some people think that massed longbows are really hard to counter. But in my experience they are not hard to counter at all people are just using the wrong counter units.

Sending cavalry against massed longbows or longbows protected by pikes does not work.

But the counter to longbows is not cavalry it is musketeers. In my in-game experience a mass of musketeers set to attack move will massacre an equal amount of longbows. Just to make sure I tested it in the editor as well.

34 Musketeers vs. 30 Longbows (same amount of villager seconds).
= 13 Musketeers left.

AuthorReplies:
Braenn
Skirmisher
posted 09-30-06 07:02 AM EDT (US)     1 / 49       
That's an utter joke, musketeers have a tiny range compared to lbows, lot's of muskets will be dead before they even get a shot off

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AuxiliA MieS
Skirmisher
posted 09-30-06 07:16 AM EDT (US)     2 / 49       
Forget musketeers, skirmishers all the way. They have as long or longer range than longbows and do more damage.

M3 15 ur l0rd 4and m45t3r. Y0us4 g0tt4 d0 wh4t 1 t3ll y3r.
nidhog_slayer
Skirmisher
posted 09-30-06 07:31 AM EDT (US)     3 / 49       
musketeers really counter longbows. longbows are good against ranged cavalry, nothing else specially.

i thought mass longbows were lame untill i faced musketeer massing brit...

XploSionS
Skirmisher
posted 09-30-06 07:32 AM EDT (US)     4 / 49       
... maby u are forgetting a combo of great bombards spahis and jans or abus :S then they r dead
poita
Skirmisher
posted 09-30-06 07:53 AM EDT (US)     5 / 49       

Quote:

They have as long or longer range than longbows and do more damage.

You might want to check before you say things like that.

Skirms
Damage: 15
Range: 20

Longbow
Damage: 17
Range: 22

That's not including the fact that skirms cost more and longbows have double the rate of fire! So in 3 secs, longbows will do 34 damage whereas a skirm will do 15. Then there's the Yeomen upgrade...


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Bastiaan
Skirmisher
posted 09-30-06 08:18 AM EDT (US)     6 / 49       
Except that u are forgetting skirms do 2X damage to infantry, poita
Krazy_Karl
Skirmisher
posted 09-30-06 08:20 AM EDT (US)     7 / 49       
@topic

Lol.


im in ur base

steelin ur crates
Basilis
Skirmisher
posted 09-30-06 08:24 AM EDT (US)     8 / 49       
may god have mercy on your noobish souls...
skirmishers have x2 ONLY AGAINST HEAVY BLOODY INFANTRY
Longbowmen HAVE A VERY SMALL RATE OF FIRE (1.5)
They can kill cannons fairly easily due to THEIR HUGE RANGE WITH CARD IN FORTRESS
the only drawback using longbowmen is that they can't hit and run... if they did, they would be the best unit in game
Jumbalaya
Skirmisher
posted 09-30-06 08:38 AM EDT (US)     9 / 49       
use cavalry to attack the guys in front and skirms to kill the guys in the back still firing

lol im jumby
xSephirothx
Skirmisher
(id: xMatt the Greatx)
posted 09-30-06 08:51 AM EDT (US)     10 / 49       
Muskets in melee actually do work pretty well. I have a screenshot somewhere thats really cool of like 50 muskets charging across a pampas river into a horde of lbows. I'll have to find it....

And skirms dont get the multiplier against light infantry.

poita
Skirmisher
posted 09-30-06 09:28 AM EDT (US)     11 / 49       

Quote:

Except that u are forgetting skirms do 2X damage to infantry, poita

They don't. Skirms do 2X to heavy infantry. Longbows are not heavy infantry.

That actually brings up another interesting point. Even without the 2x multiplier longbows [s]still[/b] do more damage to heavy infantry.


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George_III
Skirmisher
posted 09-30-06 09:32 AM EDT (US)     12 / 49       

Quote:

Muskets in melee actually do work pretty well. I have a screenshot somewhere thats really cool of like 50 muskets charging across a pampas river into a horde of lbows. I'll have to find it....

That was against me >.>

I got horribly poont (and my 2 allies dropping didn't help much either).

[This message has been edited by George_III (edited 09-30-2006 @ 09:33 AM).]

Mokon
Skirmisher
posted 09-30-06 09:51 AM EDT (US)     13 / 49       

Quote:

34 Musketeers vs. 30 Longbows (same amount of villager seconds).

Micro and meatshield as a real game would go

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  • Sens_fan
    Skirmisher
    posted 09-30-06 09:54 AM EDT (US)     14 / 49       
    Oh my god are you crazy? This is the worst joke I have ever heard.
    First of all longbowmen are made to counter musketeers, they will never win!
    I play as french and I usualy make a mix of musketeers and skirmishers backed up with a few falcs. This stratagy works against everyone except massed oprinicks and massed longbow men. Lonbowmen eat up musketeers and skirmishers for breakfast!. The only way to counter mass longbow men is with heavy cavalry, in my case cuirassers with cost a large ammount of ressources. Longbow men are my worst enemie.
    The Anti Elmo
    Skirmisher
    (id: Led)
    posted 09-30-06 10:09 AM EDT (US)     15 / 49       
    Send musketeers into masses of their direct counter...makes sense!

    "My fort was razed by cougars."
    poita
    Skirmisher
    posted 09-30-06 10:32 AM EDT (US)     16 / 49       
    Umm, longbows aren't muskets direct counter. They get no bonus whatsoever.

    Muskets beat static longbows whether they have to approach from out-of-range or not.


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    MockHamill
    Skirmisher
    posted 09-30-06 10:32 AM EDT (US)     17 / 49       
    Longbows are not the direct counter to Musketeers.

    Skirmishers get bonus damage against Musketeers. Longbows do not. Since Longbows dish out much damage per second but have no bonus against any unit, it makes sense fighting them with units that actually have lots of hit points per villagers second = Musketeers. Also pikes massacre Hussars cost effectively which makes it hard for Hussars to get to the Longbows. But Musketeers easily defeat pikes so trying to use a meat shield against Musketeers does not really work.

    It is possible that things are different at the 2300 level, but at my level (1900) Musketeers beat Longbows cost effectively.

    nidhog_slayer
    Skirmisher
    posted 09-30-06 11:09 AM EDT (US)     18 / 49       
    musketeers also counter lbows at 2300 level, go to xpert chat (hope there is any decent player there at moment) and ask is musketeer>longbowman...

    if there is anyone decent there, they will say that musketeer is better, and also, that longbows only directly counter ranged cav.

    N_E_Patriots
    Skirmisher
    posted 09-30-06 11:12 AM EDT (US)     19 / 49       
    Why not lancers?

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    KingSteve3721
    Skirmisher
    posted 09-30-06 11:22 AM EDT (US)     20 / 49       
    Because lancers die before even making it to the longbows.

    Trust me, i play spain.

    EDIT: I seriously dont understand your logic....in your words heavy infantry beats light infantry?

    Even though they dont have a "2x infantry", as poita said a longbowmen will do more damage vs heavy infantry than a skirmisher, and have more range. (take into note that skirmishers cost more, and cost gold instead of wood, which is a huge disadvantage)

    What makes it any different from a skirmisher?


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    [This message has been edited by KingSteve3721 (edited 09-30-2006 @ 11:25 AM).]

    Mokon
    Skirmisher
    posted 09-30-06 11:26 AM EDT (US)     21 / 49       

    Quote:

    It is possible that things are different at the 2300 level, but at my level (1900) Musketeers beat Longbows cost effectively

    .... Nope... they may just seem to, which to be totally honest i am still perplexed about. Just move you lbows back if the musk start to close in on em.

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  • brandnizzle
    Skirmisher
    posted 09-30-06 12:05 PM EDT (US)     22 / 49       
    muskets do pretty well agaisnt long bows...BUT

    when you splti the longbow mass into 2 or 3 groups, the muskets cant melee them all.

    AND your using plantations and he still gets to use faster gathering wood (3 upgrades)

    you really need AA to make this work, miltary drummers is a must, unless you get an Inca TP.

    also, i always hoped dopps would work...but their HP is just way too low.

    oh, and never use skirms vs l bows.

    AuxiliA MieS
    Skirmisher
    posted 09-30-06 12:48 PM EDT (US)     23 / 49       
    If only there were huskarls in aoe3...

    M3 15 ur l0rd 4and m45t3r. Y0us4 g0tt4 d0 wh4t 1 t3ll y3r.
    Uncle_Joe
    Skirmisher
    posted 09-30-06 01:04 PM EDT (US)     24 / 49       
    *shrug* Its been my experience too. I recently played a Brit/Otto vs Brit/Otto game. Their Brit massed Lbows and I massed Muskets and easily came out on top (that wasnt the only factor, but it was a trend I noticed when the units would fight it out)

    I think part of the problem that people see is that its hard to see just HOW MANY Lbows you are engaging. Earlier in that game, I was building some Hussars (about 12) and sent them to engage a group of what looked to be about 20 LBows or so. I was slaughtered. I though that was ridiculous to lose like that. Upon watching the replay, those "20" Lbows were actually 37! They are just small, have a small footprint, and mass up really well.

    In anything approaching equal cost, Muskets seem to do the job. Muskets also have more upgrades available at the AA and there are plenty of cards that affect Muskets.

    LBows will beat Muskets if they are micro'ed and split up and moved out of range etc. So in Colonial/Fortress when there is more time for micro, Muskets usually will lose. But later in Industrial when huge piles of troops are present and cannon are present in quantity, I think Muskets are just fine vs Lbows.

    As mentioned above, if players are still heavily micro'ing their LBows at 2200+, then yeah, I suppose Muskets will still likely lose, but for the vast majority of people whining about LBows, I just dont think that level of micro is being used.

    Cancer of the Head
    Skirmisher
    (id: say1988)
    posted 09-30-06 01:04 PM EDT (US)     25 / 49       
    As people said, in melee musks own lbows, but they get ownedtring to make it into melee, especially of there is a meatshield....
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