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Age of Empires III Heaven » Forums » General Discussions » Longbows are easily countered
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Topic Subject:Longbows are easily countered
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MockHamill
Skirmisher
posted 09-30-06 06:50 AM EDT (US)         
It seems that some people think that massed longbows are really hard to counter. But in my experience they are not hard to counter at all people are just using the wrong counter units.

Sending cavalry against massed longbows or longbows protected by pikes does not work.

But the counter to longbows is not cavalry it is musketeers. In my in-game experience a mass of musketeers set to attack move will massacre an equal amount of longbows. Just to make sure I tested it in the editor as well.

34 Musketeers vs. 30 Longbows (same amount of villager seconds).
= 13 Musketeers left.

AuthorReplies:
ultimitsu
Skirmisher
posted 09-30-06 01:21 PM EDT (US)     26 / 49       
i would just like to point out that longbow's massive ranged was just to make up for its slow setup time. most people cant and wont bother micro longbow all the time, so realistically its range is only 20 most of the time.

now you have melee cav running at speed of 7, it takes about 1.5 second for longbow to setup its first shot, by the time first shot is fired, melee cav are alreayd half way closed in.

if you micro skirmishers you can hit and run longbows, evern though they have better ranged you will be out of their range by the time they are ready to fire.

back to topic, on muskts VS longbow thing, in open ground, longbows wont get more than 2 shots on muskts before muskts fire their first shot, if that.

Alpedar
Skirmisher
posted 09-30-06 01:40 PM EDT (US)     27 / 49       
Untested idea (for Dutch aginst LB):
Halbs in cover mode (they are there ONLY for being shot, their attack is bonus) and skirms. Microed LBs will probubly beat this, becose they will shoot at skirms and run before halbs get to them. But unmicroed will waste some attack on halbs.
(Why Halbs and not pikes? Becose they pack more HP in 1 pop and dont cost wood (as dutch i usualy have more problems with wood than gold).
ultimitsu
Skirmisher
posted 09-30-06 01:48 PM EDT (US)     28 / 49       
that doesnt work, it has been tested.

dutch's best bet, and quite effective too, is just use falcs.

The Anti Elmo
Skirmisher
(id: Led)
posted 09-30-06 04:02 PM EDT (US)     29 / 49       

Quote:

Muskets beat static longbows whether they have to approach from out-of-range or not.


I'll try this with my Guerreros. I need something better than mamelukes or organ guns.

"My fort was razed by cougars."
egel
Skirmisher
posted 09-30-06 04:35 PM EDT (US)     30 / 49       
BS. In my experience, any one with half a brain moves his lbows back anyway. While sometimes it appears to work, it really doesn't, as you can see if you're the player with the lbows. Musks are 75 food, 25 gold. Lbows are 60 food, 40 wood. This means that musks are very slightly cheaper (wood gathers slower than gold). However, since you need in my experience quite a few more musks than lbows (e.g 60 vs. 40), it is more than enough to counteract the difference. If the lbows have the yeoman upgrade, as they should, then their range makes it worse. Also, if they micro, as any remotely sensible person would (you don't have to be good to micro, I know 1600+ players who can micro effectively), and spread out the lbows, you have no chance.

Theoretically, you'd be better to mass halbs, they have better attack and slightly less hand resist. Sadly they're mire expensive. Since you're facing lbows, hand resistance doesn't do a heap, because the majority of the damage is done at range.

Also, I tend to have a culverin or two and a falconet, surrounded by a meatshield, with a few pikes in front of the lbows to hold you whil the lbows spread out and nail you, so byebye musks if the opponent can think/ has a brain and uses it.


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Vive la mort, vive la guerre, vive le sacre mercenaire.

0 A.D
nidhog_slayer
Skirmisher
posted 09-30-06 04:46 PM EDT (US)     31 / 49       
peoples who are whining about that muskets do shit against longbows, JUST TRY THEM VS LONGBOWS. Yeomans are their own case of course...
Erik_Dire_Wolf
Skirmisher
posted 09-30-06 04:49 PM EDT (US)     32 / 49       
spreading out the longbows makes it easier to kill them with cavalry though.

Dancing in a rain of descending ash, Dancing on your grave.
xSephirothx
Skirmisher
(id: xMatt the Greatx)
posted 09-30-06 06:56 PM EDT (US)     33 / 49       
Try musket + falcs. All muskets go melee and falcs blast away at them. 2 falcs + 20 muskets vs 30 lbows, the lbows will get totally owned. They have the choice to either shoot down your falcs and get wtfpwnd by muskets, or they can try to kill as many muskets as possible in the charge, while constantly being battered by the falcs (losing about 5 lbows every 4 seconds). A third option would be to run back, but then you just give your opponent free shots with his artillery.
The Bob
Skirmisher
posted 09-30-06 07:34 PM EDT (US)     34 / 49       
muskets beat lb in standing fights and if the lbs run then they arent doing damage ... so ... muskets are a good counter to lb

thats why the dutch and germans have a bad time vs lb they have no muskets

mentork
Skirmisher
posted 09-30-06 11:37 PM EDT (US)     35 / 49       
Long bows counter muskets.

Quote:

2 falcs + 20 muskets vs 30 lbows

Now try 2 falcs + 20 muskets vs 2 falcs + 20 longbows.

MightyFireball
Skirmisher
posted 09-30-06 11:50 PM EDT (US)     36 / 49       
May I just point out that its wierd that Musketeers do better against Longbows than Crossbows do? Longbows are supposed to directly counter Musketeers, after all. This either means I'm overreacting or something here isn't balanced, probably Crossbows.

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egel
Skirmisher
posted 10-01-06 00:12 AM EDT (US)     37 / 49       
xbows do better vs lbows in ranged, musks do better in hand to hand vs lbows.

xbows have 3 more ranged attack than musks have hand attack, have 20% ranged armour instead of 20% melee, but musks have half as much health again (100 vs 150). However they cost about the same amount more too(in terms of villager seconds, 48.6 vs.78, which is approx 1 to 1.6).

Musks are theoretically slightly worse(because they have to get to the lbows, so they suffer two shots maybe 3 per lbow).

Once they get there they're better though (lbows crappy hand attack)


Ceres 629's strategy guides

Vive la mort, vive la guerre, vive le sacre mercenaire.

0 A.D
mentork
Skirmisher
posted 10-01-06 01:26 AM EDT (US)     38 / 49       
Haha, egel

Muskets are better then xbows at fighting long bow men at range.
The stat you're forgeting is hp.

Quote:

(lbows crappy hand attack)

They have the same hand attack as a rod...

poita
Skirmisher
posted 10-01-06 04:30 AM EDT (US)     39 / 49       

Quote:

Long bows counter muskets.

Quote:

Longbows are supposed to directly counter Musketeers, after all.

Quote:

xbows do better vs lbows in ranged, musks do better in hand to hand vs lbows.

No, no, no.

Longbows and crossbows do not counter any heavy infantry and they aren't supposed to. People say that light infantry counters heavy infantry but it's only true for strelets, skirmishers, cassadores, abus guns, jaegers and native LI. Crossbows and longbows get no bonus against HI just like cavalry get no bonus against LI.

Also, you don't need to put muskets in melee to beat longbows, they do just as well if not better at range. In melee they will stumble around each other trying to get close wasting precious attack time. They are better than crossbows in almost every way: 50% more hitpoints, 28% more ranged attack, 150% more siege and resistance to cavalry. Muskets are better at countering heavy inf than crossbows are so the next time you get jani rushed, use muskets and not crossbows.


- - ESO Name: poita - -
- - ELO Rating: 2120 - -
- - Civ: Russia + Dutch - -
My Aztec Unit Guide (Updated!)
Krazy_Karl
Skirmisher
posted 10-01-06 04:49 AM EDT (US)     40 / 49       
^ I'll remmember that last hint, poita. While it is true that falcs are supposed to beat longbows, it's often not the way it works in gameplay. Nothing's more frustrating than losing falcs to lbow focus firing before you can get more than one shot off. Lbows need to be nerfed, especially when they often beat their counters!

Quote:

now you have melee cav running at speed of 7, it takes about 1.5 second for longbow to setup its first shot, by the time first shot is fired, melee cav are alreayd half way closed in.

Sounds good on paper. Cavalry circle around the group of lbows to attack and by the time they get there the longbows have killed several of the cav.


im in ur base

steelin ur crates

[This message has been edited by KrAzY_KaRl (edited 10-01-2006 @ 04:52 AM).]

Gomezd
Skirmisher
posted 10-01-06 05:31 AM EDT (US)     41 / 49       
Lbows are overrated, They are a great unit, but they arent the unit that kils all. Hell I lost over 50 Lbows (massed right? so they shoudl be unstoppable) to a bunch of abus >_<

I agree they need a small nerf, probly reduce its hand damagae attack a little bit.

poita
Skirmisher
posted 10-01-06 06:04 AM EDT (US)     42 / 49       
Against longbows you shouldn't use units that are expensive like falcs and hussars. The thing with longbows is that they are only incredibly strong when they can use their 1.5 rate of fire. I did a little test and noticed that when longbows change target they slow down their fire. They can only maintain maximum fire speed when repeatedly firing on one unit. This means that falconets are practically a perfect target for longbows.

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mentork
Skirmisher
posted 10-01-06 06:30 AM EDT (US)     43 / 49       
And that is why sterlets beat long bows.

[This message has been edited by mentork (edited 10-01-2006 @ 06:30 AM).]

SirWhale
Skirmisher
posted 10-01-06 06:58 AM EDT (US)     44 / 49       
If muskets have higher ranged/hand damage and higher hp etc, and if xbows have ranged resistance + high ranged attack why not make a blend of both?

I am a french player and this is what I've come to notice usually: 8xbow + 5 muskets > 10 jans. I havent have had much experience against british subjects but Ive noticed that a mix of xbows and muskets do decently well against pure longbows, as long as theyre below a number of 30.

And if muskets counter lbows, then janissaries should do a better job.

Ranger General
Skirmisher
posted 10-01-06 10:46 AM EDT (US)     45 / 49       

Quote:

musketeers also counter lbows at 2300 level, go to xpert chat (hope there is any decent player there at moment) and ask is musketeer>longbowman...
if there is anyone decent there, they will say that musketeer is better, and also, that longbows only directly counter ranged cav.

OK, the brit player will just switch vilager around and chew your normal musketeer up with "Redcoats"!

LB+Redcoats+Rocket FTW! Blue Blood Brits OWNS!

PS: Brits have the Best Musketeer(with Thin red Line they own Port RG muskets) in the game.
Sending Muskets against Brits is not fun.

Quote:

Lbows need to be nerfed, especially when they often beat their counters!

Opness is a Birth right for Blue Blood Brits, they can't be nerfed!


Ulti's word of wisdom :

since the start of aoe3, every unit that can move has been a direct counter to grenadiers, even villagers(since they have bonuses against siege troops)

[This message has been edited by Ranger General (edited 10-01-2006 @ 06:00 PM).]

TarsTarkas
Skirmisher
posted 10-01-06 11:18 AM EDT (US)     46 / 49       
Portuguese Musketeers are just as good!

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To see these studies for yourself, please click here."

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drahnier
Skirmisher
posted 10-01-06 12:40 PM EDT (US)     47 / 49       

Quote:

Lbows are overrated, They are a great unit, but they arent the unit that kils all. Hell I lost over 50 Lbows (massed right? so they shoudl be unstoppable) to a bunch of abus >_<


So maybe one of its counter units can actually counter it (which is only available to one civ), yeah that must mean they're not overpowered.
TheRomans
Skirmisher
posted 10-02-06 02:26 AM EDT (US)     48 / 49       
Turk Janissary
Skirmisher
posted 10-02-06 06:54 AM EDT (US)     49 / 49       

I defated a massive vet longbow army about 40 with port vet muskets and organ they were 35 or so and 7 organs they kicked ass and i still had 2 organs and some muskets


as for brit musket is only a little bit stronger than port musket nothing really relevant


WHAT THE BLOODY BLOODY BLOODY BLOODY BLOODY BLOODY BLOODY BLOODY HELL ARE YOU TALKING ABOUT I am no Turk i am Portuguese ..... I just like to play Turk
And the 50 thousand Janissarys came upon the byzantine walls Constantinople and the byzantine empire were about to end..
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