You must be logged in to post messages.
Please login or register

General Discussions
Moderated by Maffia, LordKivlov, JimXIX

Hop to:    
Welcome! You are not logged in. Please Login or Register.14 replies
Age of Empires III Heaven » Forums » General Discussions » dutch eco
Bottom
Topic Subject:dutch eco
ajvenema
Skirmisher
posted 11-11-06 04:45 AM EDT (US)         
hi all
iv been playing duch a lot lately and im ok with them. my only problem is the lategame eco! even with all banks up, my eco cant match a good othr eco! 8 banks, equals 32 vils, and with the 50 its only 82! if u age to industrial u get 4 more which makes 86, and then send the tulip shipment and get 10% more from banks, so 3 vils extra...

makes a total of 90, is there away to get more?

AuthorReplies:
B_V war lord
Skirmisher
posted 11-11-06 06:04 AM EDT (US)     1 / 14       
what about factroys
F1RE_FLY
Skirmisher
posted 11-11-06 09:28 AM EDT (US)     2 / 14       
aging to imperial and you can research a tech that let's you get +2 banks.

~иииииииииииииииииииииииииииииииииииииииииииииииииииииииии~
ESO: F1R╔_FLП
~иииииииииииииииииииииииииииииииииииииииииииииииииииииииии~
XploSionS
Skirmisher
posted 11-11-06 09:43 AM EDT (US)     3 / 14       
how many villagers does 1 banks equal? i think i read somewhere that it may be 4.5 but i may be incorrect and it was quite a while ago, also always add schooners to your dutch deck, then you can have 8 banks on gold and about 20 fishing boats on gold, then you have 50 villagers left to stread around on food / wood so probably about 35-40 on food and 10-15 on wood... then it wil give you a better econ then most other civilisations.
TjRome
Skirmisher
posted 11-11-06 11:37 AM EDT (US)     4 / 14       
A couple of things about the dutch:

1) Don't let the game get to late game. Dutch are decent colonial fighters, and do very well in fortress (esp w/ the 30% speed upgrade to the Halbs).

2) Banks are a better investment than plantations. Plantations cost 800 wood (slowest resource to gather), and then require villagers to man (1000 food for 10 villies). Finally, plantations are easily raidable (while banks are not). Also, in order for plantations to produce more than a trickle of gold, they require expensive tech research.

With all that said, I do agree that a very late game dutch eco will be out-produced by most other civs. However, I think that is ok. Having different bonuses AND weaknesses is what makes this game fun.

ajvenema
Skirmisher
posted 11-11-06 12:04 PM EDT (US)     5 / 14       
ok, its good to hear it s not just me doing something terrible wrong

thanks for the idea of fishing, didnt think about that one!
and didnt know about the imperial tech for 2 banks neither, but i dont think ill get there much times

KingSteve3721
Skirmisher
posted 11-11-06 01:20 PM EDT (US)     6 / 14       
Dutch bank gather rate was boosted in TWC, making the gold per second go from 2.4 to 2.9.
If you calculate this, it goes from 4.5 vils to about 5.4 vils.

So in theory the dutch can get about 93 vils now with an 8 bank economy.

(Correct me if im wrong on the bank gold gather rate becauseim not completely sure that it was 2.4 before TWC)


[FeaR]{KingSteve3721}
“I love my name of honor, more than I fear death.”- Julius Caesar
"The Pope! How many divisions has he got?"- Joseph Stalin
"The hand that gives is above the hand that takes. Money has no motherland; financiers are without patriotism and without decency; their sole object is gain."- Napoleon Bonaparte
"Dogs, would you live forever?"- Frederick the Great (addressing retreating Prussians at the Battle of Kolin)
radradrobotanks
Skirmisher
posted 11-11-06 03:47 PM EDT (US)     7 / 14       
I believe it was actually 2.6 to 2.75.
xChaos
Skirmisher
posted 11-11-06 03:58 PM EDT (US)     8 / 14       
Yeah, it used to be 2.6 before
Makita
Skirmisher
posted 11-11-06 05:48 PM EDT (US)     9 / 14       
Dutch economy is pretty complex. I wish someone mathimatically-inclined would do a write-up on it.

See, you can't just look at the final late-game numbers. It is theoretically possible to get all 8 banks up before you hit the villager cap, and yet maintain constant vill production the entire time. That means you get your 80-90 (not sure on the number) "villagers" by the time you would normally have only 50. That means more resources gathered sooner, including the XP that you gain from building each bank.

Sounds pretty good, but there are other things to consider:
1) Can you defend yourself during this boom, and should you? If you are purely focused on booming, there are better civs.
2) How much does the high initial cost of banks offset the gain from having "villagers" sooner?
3) How long until a higher max number of villagers is superior to having a lower number sooner?
4) How much economic advantage do you lose on Dutch's economically-inefficient military units? (Better halbs now helps this somewhat).
5) Is it worth sending 4-5 cards to achieve this (debatable) advantage?

MusketKing
Skirmisher
posted 11-11-06 06:03 PM EDT (US)     10 / 14       

Quote:

If you calculate this, it goes from 4.5 vils to about 5.4 vils.


when u say 5.4 vills, are we talking about vills on a plantation with the 3 upgrades?
so 5 bank = 27 vills on plantations with the u grades?
thx

"The better at AoE, the worse at RL" - Doppel
After someone suggesting to make a meatshield to fight off petards..."Where can I find this meatshield? Is it in the TC?" - Sjalle

"That last comment has earned you a ban Musk" - Solus
On realising I was on a 2nd account:"Quinarvy ehhh" - Solus

RUSSIAN CIVIL WAR - VERY GG
Mine and Micky's OPness
Ender_Ward
Skirmisher
posted 11-11-06 06:13 PM EDT (US)     11 / 14       
In TWC, the Dutch economy is absolutely incomparable to other civs' due to the existance of the Saloon and pure gold costing units.

Dutch in TWC have the ability to expand their economy extremely quickly, but at fairly great cost. However, they gain the benefit of a large part of this economy being unraidable, inexhaustible and when combined with pure gold costing units, extremely efficient.

Let's say you do a standard build order and end up with about 20 villagers and 4 Banks by 8:30. Or a rough equivalent of 38 non-Dutch villagers. You did this at a cost of 1300 gold, 1400 food and 1400 wood. While that's a pretty huge investment, thanks to the Saloon, it's more than worth it.

Before TWC, the Dutch had fairly decent Mercs (but lacked the shipments for them) and a fairly standard military. They couldn't take real advantage of their economic superiority at this particular stage of the game. Now though, unless they get really unlucky and get something like Ninjas + Manchu at the Saloon, they can break out in a show of power that rivals even the good old German Merc FF from way back when.
Depending on the quality of Mercs available at the Saloon, Dutch strength at this stage of the game can go from very good to nearly broken (i.e. Elmeti + Highlanders combination).

And that's before we get into the Halberds issue. Which gave Dutch the ability to have a very strong standard military, to pour their economy into.

So don't worry about the Dutch economy in the long term. You have excellent odds at finishing games before that ever becomes an issue. Indeed, I would say that the Dutch economy/military combination in TWC is so good, that Dutch are the 3rd strongest civ in the game right now.


"One wants to be loved, failing that admired, failing that feared, failing that hated and despised. One wants to instill in other people some form of emotion. The soul shudders before emptiness and wants contact, no matter the cost."
Makita
Skirmisher
posted 11-11-06 06:55 PM EDT (US)     12 / 14       
@Ender,
I know you already wrote a lot, but could you expand on the idea that the Saloon benefits the Dutch? (I just got TWC)


Is it because the Dutch now have a reason to use both of their bonuses at the same time (ie, banks plus increased mining)? Even so, units that aren't gold heavy are likely to be food heavy. Food still gathers more efficiently than banks or Dutch mining. Are we assuming that the opponent has already had to move to mills and plantations? That could make a difference.

Also, I was under the impression that saloon mercs are not the great value that the shipment mercs are. Aren't they more expensive? If so, is it worth it to gather extra amounts of a slower resource (coin) for them?

ultimitsu
Skirmisher
posted 11-11-06 07:03 PM EDT (US)     13 / 14       
1, saloon mercs are at better value than shipment mercs. resource wise they even, but saloon mercs can start its queuing as soon as you have pop and res for one of them, shipment mercs require 1 shipment and 1k godl ready, then they take 60 seconds.

2, hunting is no better than mining, at the least not the herds outside your TC range, it is much easier to build a TC/for/tower next to a gold mine, and all 15 vils garrison in 1 seconds and all come out and start working again after raidng is defeated, than it is for herds of bhuntings.

KingSteve3721
Skirmisher
posted 11-12-06 11:16 AM EDT (US)     14 / 14       
1. Its 4.5 vils on a mine.

2. If it wasnt 2.4 before, and isnt 2.9 now, then my whole calculation is wrong because i did it proportional to eachother. If it is 2.6-2.75, then-

2.6/4.5=2.75/4.77


[FeaR]{KingSteve3721}
“I love my name of honor, more than I fear death.”- Julius Caesar
"The Pope! How many divisions has he got?"- Joseph Stalin
"The hand that gives is above the hand that takes. Money has no motherland; financiers are without patriotism and without decency; their sole object is gain."- Napoleon Bonaparte
"Dogs, would you live forever?"- Frederick the Great (addressing retreating Prussians at the Battle of Kolin)
You must be logged in to post messages.
Please login or register

Hop to:    

Age of Empires III Heaven | HeavenGames