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Topic Subject: Gathering Guide!
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posted 11-27-06 06:12 PM EDT (US)   
Well I Decided to do something about questions concerning villager seconds (VS), and gathering rates and ended up with this huge, yet helpful guide. It contains every single gathering unit in the game, and every single economical technology and home city card. By doing this I hope it will become easier than ever to calculate gathering rates, and overall gain some insight into how percentages and math come into play in every single one of your games Enjoy! Feel free to comment and ask questions.

Abstract Villagers

Gatherers

Native Villagers

Tree: .5
Mill: .67
Plantation: .5
Herdable: 1.25
Huntable: .84
Mine: .6
Berry Bush: .67
Crate: 8.0
Farm: .5

European Settlers

Tree: .5
Mill: .67
Plantation: .5
Herdable: 2.0
Huntable: .84
Mine: .6 (Dutch Settler: .69)
Berry Bush: .67
Crate: 8.0
Farm: .5

Coureurs

Tree: .62
Mill: .84
Plantation: .63
Herdable: 2.5
Huntable: 1.04
Mine: .74
Berry Bush: .83
Crate: 10.0
Farm: .62

Settler Wagons

Tree: 1.0
Mill: 1.34
Plantation: 1.0
Herdable: 4.0
Huntable: 1.7
Mine: 1.2
Berry Bush: 1.34
Crate: 15.0
Farm: 1.0

Technologies

Gang Saw: Wood +10%
Log Flume: Wood +20%
Circular Saw: Wood +30%
Deforestation: Wood +50%
Hunting Dogs: Hunting +10%
Steel Traps: Hunting +20%
Placer Mines: Mine +10%
Amalgamation: Mine +20%
Excessive Taxation: Mine +50%, Plantation +50%
Seed Drill: Mill +15%, Farm +15%
Artificial Fertilizer: Mill +30%, Farm +30%
Large Scale Agriculture: Mill +50%, Farm +50%
Book Keeping: Plantation +10%
Home Steading: Plantation +20%
Ore Refining: Plantation +30%
Earth Gift Ceremony: Plantation +20%, Mine +20%
Lumber Cereomony: Wood +20%
Forest People Ceremony: Wood +20%
Forest Spirit Ceremony: Wood +20%
Great Feast: Hunting +10%, Berrybush +10%, Farm +10%, Mill +10%
Harvest Ceremony: Hunting +15%, Berrybush +15%, Farm +15%, Mill +15%
Green Corn Ceremony: Hunting +20%, Berrybush +20%, Farm +20%, Mill +20%
Large Scale Gathering: Mill +50%, Farm +50%, Hunting +50%
Earth Ceremony: Plantation +10%, Mine +10%
Excessive Tribute: Mine +50%, Plantation +50%
Chinampa: Mill +20%, Farm +20%
Metalworking: Mine +20%
Calendar: Mill +10%, Farm +10%, Hunting +10%
Aztec WiseWoman Age2: Plantation +10%, Farm +10%
Aztec WiseWoman Age3: Plantation +15%, Farm +15%
Aztec WiseWoman Age4: Plantation +20%, Farm +20%
Aztec WiseWoman Age5: Plantation +25%, Farm +25%
Sioux WiseWoman Age2: Hunting +10%
Sioux WiseWoman Age3: Hunting +20%
Sioux WiseWoman Age4: Hunting +30%
Sioux WiseWoman Age5: Hunting +40%
Zapotec Food of the Gods: Mill +10%, Plantation +10%, Berrybush +10%, Farm +10%
Klamath Work Ethos: Wood +5%, Hunting +5%, Mill +5%, Plantation +5%, Mine +5%, Berrybush +5%
Navajo Craftsmanship: Mine +20%, Plantation +20%

Home City Cards

Lumberyards: Wood +15%
Sawmills: Wood + 15%
Exotic Hardwoods: Wood + 20%
Royal Mint: Plantation +25%, Mine +25%
Cigar Roller: Plantation +20%
Rum Distillery: Plantation +20%
Iron Monger: Mine +20%
Silversmith: Mine +20%
Textile Mills: Plantation +25%
Food Silos: Mill +15%, Farm +15%
Sustainable Agriculture: Mill +15%, Farm +15%
Furrier: Hunting +15% , Berrybush +20%
Grain Market: Mill +20%, Farm +20%
Refrigeration: Mill +20%, Hunting +20%, Berrybush + 20%, Herdable + 20%, Farm +20%
Spice Trade: Hunting +20%, Berrybush +20%
Aztec Mining: Mine +40%
Chinampa1: Plantation +15%, Farm +15%, Mill +15%
Chinampa2: Plantation +20%, Farm +20%, Mill +20%
Great Hunter: Hunting +20%, Berrybush +20%
Woodcrafting: Wood +20%
Team Exotic Hardwoods: Wood +15%
Team Silversmith: Mine +10%
Team Food Silos: Mill +10%, Farm +15%
Team Furrier: Hunting +10%, Berrybush +15%
Team Sawmills: Wood +10%
Team Spice Trade: Hunting +10%, Berrybush +15%
Team Rum Distillery: Plantation +15%
Team Iron Monger: Mine +10%
Fulling Mills: Herdable +400%
Economic Theory: Hunting +10%, Berrybush +10%, Herdable +10%, Mine +10%, Wood +10%, Plantation +10$, Mill +10%, Farm +10%

Abstract Fishing Boats

Gatherers

Fishing Boats

Fish: .67
Whale: .5

Caravels

Fish: .67
Whale: .5

Galleys

Fish: .67
Whale: .5

Canoes

Fish: .22
Whale .17

War Conoes

Fish: .22
Whale: .17

Tlaloc Canoes

Fish: .22
Whale: .17

Technologies

Chinampa: Fish +20%, Whale +20%
Gill Nets: Fish +15%, Whale +15%
Long Lines: Fish +30%, Whale +30%
Excessive Taxation: Whale +50%
Excessive Tribute: Whale +50%
Huron Fish Wedding: Fish +20%, Whale +20%
Navajo Craftsmanship: Whale +20%
Economic Theory: Fish +10%, Whale +10%

Home City Cards

Fish Market: Fish +25%, Whale +25%
Rendering Plant: Fish +30%, Whale +30%
Team Fish Market: Fish +10%, Whale +10%
Whale Oil: Whale +35%
Economic Theory: Fish +10%, Whale +10%

Herdables

Gatherers

Sheep

Food: .2
Food at livestock pen: .5
Food at farm: .5

Cows

Food: .25
Food at livestock pen: 1.0
Food at farm: 1.0

Llamas

Food: .3
Food at livestock pen: .75
Food at farm: .75

Technologies

Selective Breeding: +25% Food Gather Speed from Livestock Pen, +25% Food Gather Speed from Farm
Large Scale Gathering: + 50% Food Gather Speed from Farm
Navajo Shepards: +200% Food Auto Gather Speed, +30% Food Gather Speed from Livestock Pen, +30% Food Gather Speed from Farm

Home City Cards

Stock Yards: Food Gather Speed from Livestock Pen +30%, Food Gather Speed from Farm +30%
Team Wool Staples: Food Gather Speed from Livestock Pen +30%, Food Gather Speed from Farm +30%


Now the explanation, here's an example. Say you want to find out how long it will take you to gather enough resources to train 5 musketeers as Britain with hunting dogs as your only economical upgrade.

In order to calculate how long it takes to gather a certain amount of resources over a certain amount of time, we will convert our resources to a universal unit in AoE3, the villager second (VS). A villager second stands for how many seconds it will take for a villager to gather a certain amount of resources. The beauty of VS is that your working with one unit, not the three different ones in AoE3. In order to find the VS required for a certain unit/building/ect., you simply divide the amount of resources, by it's respective gathering rate. It's important to use the respective gathering rate, because hunting for food gathers significantly faster than gathering wood. However, to make things more complicated, there are also economical upgrades and home city cards, which can be researched or shipped, to boost the gathering rate or resources. Since you will be using these in games, it's important to take the economical upgrades into account as well, since after boosting the gathering rate of wood, you can on longer use the standard rate of .5. I'll do my best to give an explanation below.

Britain settlers gather food at a rate at .84 when hunting, however since we have researched hunting dogs, that rate will be bumped up to 0.924 (10% = .1 as a decimal, add one to it and multiply it by the original rate, .84. This is how we will take all economic upgrades into account, simply convert the percentage to a decimal by removing the percent sign and moving the decimal two places to the left, and then add one. Then multiply this number by the standard gathering rate, to get your new gathering rate). So now we divide the food cost of musketeers, 75, by .924 (our new hunting rate), which equals 81.17. So it will take one villager, that many seconds to gather 75 food from hunting, which will allow us to train one musketeer. However, let's say we have 10 villagers hunting. In order to account for the fact we have 10 villagers, and not just one, we simply divide the food cost in VS (villager seconds) of a musketeer (81.17) by 10, to get 8.12 seconds. So with hunting dogs, the first hunting upgrade, and 10 villagers, it will take us 8.12 seconds to gather 75 food.

We all know that musketeers also require 25 coin to train along with 75 food. Again the same process, 25 divided by the standard gathering rate of coin for a British settler, .6. 25/.6 = 41.17. So it will take us 41.17 seconds to gather 25 coin, the amount of coin required to train one musketeer. However, remember we have five villagers gathering gold from a mine, not 1, so we shall divide 41.17 by 5, which equals 8.334. So with 5 villagers gathering from a gold mine, it will take us 8.334 seconds to gather enough gold to train on musketeer.

Now because we need the food and gold at the same time to train a musketeer, you obviously want the required times to gather the resources to be as close as possible. And look at our results, they are both very near 8 seconds! This is an ideal setup because that means that we are gathering the required resources to train musketeers , and no extra resources. Remember, any resources not being used, are a waste!

Lastly, if you remember what I said in the beginning, it was that we want to train 5 musketeers (since ideally you always want to be training units in groups of 5, and no less, so that you get as many units out as possible per batch and can remain competitive in game). Well, since we have the required gathering time for resources for 1 musketeer, we simply multiply that number (~8 seconds) by 5, to get our time of 40 seconds. So, to train 5 muskteers with 10 villagers on hunting with hunting dogs, and 5 villagers mining coin,we will need 40 seconds. The advantage of training units in AoE3 and the block system, is that you can begin training units with just enough resources for one unit, and then add others after. However, since muskteers take 30 seconds to train, we will unfortunetly only be able to train 3 (3*8=24), or maybe 4 if our economical micro is good . Of course the easiest way to grind down those required times is to produce more villagers, and upgrade your economy. Always try to match the required time to gather the necessary resources for a batch of 5 units, with the training time of that unit. That way you can have units always pouring out, without having too many villagers on a certain resource, creating excess resources.

I hope that you learned something from reading this article, because it took a long time to put together It really does show how important of a role math plays in this game though, and with some practice with the villager optimization of certain units, you can certainly improve your skill to another level. If you have any other questions, comments, concerns, or typos/mistakes in the data or guide, please feel free to post it here or PM me on All_FaLLz_DoWn on ESO


Gameranger: _NiGhThAwK_

[This message has been edited by Brtnboarder495 (edited 03-19-2007 @ 06:08 PM).]

Replies:
posted 11-27-06 06:41 PM EDT (US)     1 / 33  
Very nice. I've been curious as to some of the specific gather rates.
posted 11-27-06 07:16 PM EDT (US)     2 / 33  
Nice and stuff, but a lot of those cards got boosted in TWC so for example:
Royal Mint is now 25%
and there are tons of other examples. (You can see it in Xentelians stringtable or the techtreex)

[This message has been edited by Ekanta (edited 11-27-2006 @ 07:18 PM).]

posted 11-27-06 07:57 PM EDT (US)     3 / 33  
Yea just edited some because 1/4 through I realized I was using the old proto and techtree! I believe it's all fixed now, just patching holes and editing so it's more organized.

Gameranger: _NiGhThAwK_
posted 11-27-06 08:53 PM EDT (US)     4 / 33  
Not to be a jerk, but any chance this could be stickied or something?

Gameranger: _NiGhThAwK_
posted 11-27-06 09:36 PM EDT (US)     5 / 33  
Did i read that berry bushes are the same as unupgraded mills? That means that a single tech upgrade at the mill will yield more food, interesting.

"Speedy Halberdiers just own things" ~TarsTarkas
posted 11-27-06 09:50 PM EDT (US)     6 / 33  
Yup, but unless you have the 400 wood to spare on a farm and pay for that upgrade, it's not worth it, so I'd reccomend exhausting your berry bushes first.

Gameranger: _NiGhThAwK_
posted 11-27-06 10:36 PM EDT (US)     7 / 33  
Also remember: Those are instantaneous rates. They are the rates at the moment it is gathering, they are not the effective rates over a period of time.

Hunting probably has the greates difference between the theoretical and actual rates (I see people using .7 to .75 for the effective rate).

Bushes, are actually better than unupgraded mills as long as you stick one group bushes that are relatively close together (the distance is relative to the number of bushes) as there is minimal travel time, there is more for mills and plantations.

You are also missing the Farm gather rate for villiger types. Which is supposed to have approximately the same effective rate as mills. I can't be bothered to run all the test to definitively prove this though (or any other effective gather rates).

posted 11-27-06 10:40 PM EDT (US)     8 / 33  
Settler Wagons:
Huntable: 1.7

Settler:
Huntable: .84

Since S. Wagons are 2x more efficient than settlers at gathering everything except crates, (they gather crates slightly slower I see) You would assume that they hunt 2x better than a settler. .84x 2 is not 1.7, but 1.68.

But they actually gather food about 2.024x better than a settler! so if you want to absolutely maximize your eco, put any settler wagons you have on wood/gold to hunting and put 2 hunting settlers to the other resource. Swap em up and you'll get a lot of savings!

So your settler wagon gathers an extra 0.2 resources every ten seconds! That's an extra TWELVE, yes, 12(!!!) resources per ten minutes!


Ya nobody will notice. Who cares.

EDIT: nice job. It should be stickied.


~иииииииииииииииииииииииииииииииииииииииииииииииииииииииии~
ESO: F1R╔_FLП
~иииииииииииииииииииииииииииииииииииииииииииииииииииииииии~

[This message has been edited by F1RE_FLY (edited 11-27-2006 @ 10:41 PM).]

posted 11-27-06 11:14 PM EDT (US)     9 / 33  
Firefly im pretty sure that the walking distance between resources enacting your plan would loose you more resources than your gain (i know your using sarcasm too)

Proud winner of the FFA Winter Round '07!
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posted 11-28-06 02:33 AM EDT (US)     10 / 33  
Not to be a jerk or something (I mean, this is very nice) but what are the rates of those Cree Coureur de Bois? They aren't thesame as normal CdB right?

Who was the first that forged the deadly blade? Of rugged steel his savage soul was made -- Tibullus
posted 11-28-06 03:00 AM EDT (US)     11 / 33  
Just one thing to fix:

<Rate type ='Farm'>0.500000</Rate>

Native Farm Gathers Slower Than Euro Mill without any upgrades.


ESO : Pcfreak8
"In theory, there is no difference between theory and practice, but in practice there is." -Jan L. A. van de Snepscheu
A pessimist is usually right and never disappointed.
Any history buff knows that nothing stops a cannon like a good uppercut. - BeatnikJoe
posted 11-28-06 05:21 AM EDT (US)     12 / 33  
Please tell me the whale gather rate on my fishing boats when I have Rendering plant, fish market and whale oil. :P

Thanks to all those that signed the petition to get me unbanned here.
And special thanks to smashnbash for making it.
posted 11-28-06 07:20 AM EDT (US)     13 / 33  
Yup, Cree CdB gather just as fast as normal CdB, originally I had them as seperate units, but decided to narrow it down to one since they nearly look identical, perform at the same speed, but just have a different word in their name

And thanks for that somme


Gameranger: _NiGhThAwK_
posted 11-28-06 07:56 AM EDT (US)     14 / 33  

Quote:

Please tell me the whale gather rate on my fishing boats when I have Rendering plant, fish market and whale oil. :P

30%+25%+35% = 90% = .9, +1 = 1.9 * .5 = .95

So .95 Coin per second, I'm guessing you'd also research the dock techs too right? If so, that bumps it too 1.175 Coin per second.


Gameranger: _NiGhThAwK_
posted 11-28-06 11:01 AM EDT (US)     15 / 33  
Hey, great job with this! Looks very handy. Bookmark time for me.

Strategies:
- BWKiC - A British Fast Fortress strategy
- The Aztec Scout Slam- An Envoy Rush, Native-Style
posted 11-28-06 11:54 AM EDT (US)     16 / 33  
Great job! I hope the time you spent is rewarded with being stickied
posted 11-28-06 01:46 PM EDT (US)     17 / 33  
nice job! it will be interesting to see if anyone can translate this information into practical guidance on things like how early to research economic techs, how long they take to pay off (depending of course on the number of villagers gathering the relevant resource), and when to research upgrades at mill or plantation vs. build another mill or plantation. Also, it might make sense to supplement the above with info on trade post gather rates, factory gather rates, bank gather rates, and trickle card gather rates, and all the improvements that effect those rates.

For example, I try to research hunting dogs as early as possible in discovery age, usually gathering the extra wood or gold needed from treasures. I hold off on researching the first market wood gathering upgrade because it would delay age up, but I research it as soon as possible after hitting the age up button. That may not make sense if I only have 5 villagers on wood at the time.

Obviously, when to invest in research depends in part on whether you are rushing or being rushed. In general, I have been defaulting to researching every economic upgrade available as early as possible. That winds up being too early in some instances (like before I have enough villagers gathering from that resource type to justify the research cost) I am sure, but it saves me from forgetting to research certain things by not being terribly selective or methodical about it. I find the research I do usually pays off before the game ends or at least seems to.

posted 11-28-06 02:26 PM EDT (US)     18 / 33  
K, stickied, we'll probably add it to the strategy seciton of the site too if you do not mind.

[][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][]
[][][][][][][][][][] Stonewall J [][][][][][][][][][][]
[][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][]
posted 11-28-06 04:49 PM EDT (US)     19 / 33  
Well for a little while now I have been working on a page on which you input the resources select the upgrades and it calculates total villager seconds. It works ok, but I still have loads of upgrades to add.

Check it out here

I made it all myself and haven't done much testing yet so it is probably full of bugs and mistakes. Take a look anyways.


ESO : Pcfreak8
"In theory, there is no difference between theory and practice, but in practice there is." -Jan L. A. van de Snepscheu
A pessimist is usually right and never disappointed.
Any history buff knows that nothing stops a cannon like a good uppercut. - BeatnikJoe
posted 11-28-06 05:54 PM EDT (US)     20 / 33  

Quote:

<Rate type ='Farm'>0.500000</Rate>

Native Farm Gathers Slower Than Euro Mill without any upgrades.


But villies on a farm spend more time gathering and less walking than on a mill.
posted 11-29-06 06:59 AM EDT (US)     21 / 33  
say1988, I guess there really is no way to account for the difference, since there is no constant difference between that messed up gathering aspect of a mill.

Somme, that rocks man! Mine is basically just a vault of information, but that really makes it easy to apply.

Stonewall, sounds great. Just one thing, unless I could edit the guide after it's posted, don't put it in the guide section yet since there could be some wrong percentages. I know for a fact I still have to dig up the gathering rate of food for the three herdables for when on a farm, since I'm pretty sure it's different.


Gameranger: _NiGhThAwK_
posted 11-29-06 04:17 PM EDT (US)     22 / 33  

Quote:

Somme, that rocks man! Mine is basically just a vault of information, but that really makes it easy to apply.

Thanks I have added some more upgrades and improved the interface a little. I will slowly be improving it over time as I get the chance.

ESO : Pcfreak8
"In theory, there is no difference between theory and practice, but in practice there is." -Jan L. A. van de Snepscheu
A pessimist is usually right and never disappointed.
Any history buff knows that nothing stops a cannon like a good uppercut. - BeatnikJoe
posted 11-29-06 06:28 PM EDT (US)     23 / 33  
the natives seem to have a lower gather rates than the europeans such as the settlers gather herdables faster and the european boats gather faster than the native canoes too not only that but what 1988 said i think the mills are weaker than eurpeans too?? Whats up with that.
posted 11-29-06 08:55 PM EDT (US)     24 / 33  
The reason the native ships, with the exception of the fishing boat, gather slower than the European ones, is because they are ~ 1/4 cheaper, so it's only fair they gather fish and whale at that scale as well.

The reason they gather herdables slower is because they can put herdables on a farm earlier on, which means that they could potentially make much better use of them, that's why their is a slight difference in rate.


Gameranger: _NiGhThAwK_
posted 12-08-06 01:05 AM EDT (US)     25 / 33  
Hey man, great guide. You inspired me to add an additional worksheet to my guide with resource technologies included. Mainly because I thought I understood it, but noticed I missed a few things. I did not know that native farms collect slower than mills and they gather from herdables slower. I have a few questions for you:

1.) Are you sure that European settlers on Native allies farms gather at the same rates (0.5) and natives on European allies Milles gather at 0.67? I looked through the proto file and cannot find the information for the regular settler (0.5), Coureur (0.62 which is ~ +25%), and Settler Wagon (1.00 which is +200%).

2.) Are you sure that the Llama Livestock Farm fattening rate is higher on Farms (1.0) than on Mills (0.75)? I could not find any information for herding in the proto for the farm either. Iњm not sure if you have looked at it thoroughly yet, but my guide has a worksheet, Resource Rate Herdables which explains and calculates these for the livestock pin. If so, this must be a bug since the farm and livestock pens fatten at the same rate on sheep and cows. Otherwise, it is definitely beneficial to send llama to the Farm, and not the Mills. I did the calculation and the difference between a farm and Mill llama fattening is 64 seconds with no other upgrades.

For example, if an Iroquois uses the starting Travois as a Farm, finds 4 Llama on Pampas (reasonable), in 269 seconds (not including time to walk to farm) they will be completely fattened (with no farm upgrades). This is 1,600 quickly gathered food (not including decay rate). It would take a European with Livestock Pen 333 seconds. Not a strong strategy, but Iњm sure it has its uses in certain styles of play (treaty for example).

3.) In your example:

Quote:

Please tell me the whale gather rate on my fishing boats when I have Rendering plant, fish market and whale oil. :P
30%+25%+35% = 90% = .9, +1 = 1.9 * .5 = .95
So .95 Coin per second, I'm guessing you'd also research the dock techs too right? If so, that bumps it too 1.175 Coin per second.


I agree with the 0.95, but believe the correct answer with the dock techs is 30% + 25% + 35% + 15% (gill nets) + 20% (long lines) = 125% = 1.25, +1 = 2.25 * 0.5 (whale gathering rate) = 1.125 coin / second. Is this a typo or is there something fundamentally I am missing?

4.) On the Klamath Work Ethos technology, do they intentionally skip +5% Farm increase. It lists the food increase for everything else, including mills, but no farms.

You forgot the Mayan Calendar (Farm +10%, Hunting +10%, Mill +10%) and Incas Metalworking (+20% Mine) technologies on your list. By the way, I will be updating my guide as soon as soon as I get some of the questions above answered.

Thanks!


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[This message has been edited by Cyclohexane (edited 12-08-2006 @ 01:07 AM).]

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