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Age of Empires III Heaven » Forums » General Discussions » The right time for Renegados (with Dutch):
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Topic Subject:The right time for Renegados (with Dutch):
Ender_Ward
Skirmisher
posted 12-14-06 03:26 PM EDT (US)         
Renegados, AKA Outlaw Riflemen that you get on just over half the maps from the Saloon. Many would think that massing these in Colonial, especially against heavy infantry rushes, is a good idea.

Well, it's not.

Their inability to hit and run utterly destroys their viability at that early stage. Skirmishers may only do 1/2 the damage to heavy infantry (and only 35.7% to light infantry), but they can hit and run. They don't have to stand there and take damage. Even though they cost more, and do less damage, they end up being more cost effective.

You also don't need to worry about pop space so much or to send Dance Hall early on with Skirmishers.

But ...

When you're in Fortress, and you'd using those beautiful 5.2 speed Halberds, that's when it is actually a good time to start training Renegados.

The biggest threat to your Halberds will come from light infantry with a substantial HEAVY infantry meatshield. Think Janissaries and Abus Guns for example. You'll need to cut through those Jans to get to the Abus, if the Ottoman player is smart.

But wait, you think, don't I now have access to Veteran Skirmishers? Don't I have access to Counter Infantry Rifling at the arsenal? Yes, you do. But consider the following:

You need all the food you can get to mass Halberds.
Veteran Skirmishers deal 36 damage to heavy infantry.
Veteran Skirmishers with CIR deal 54 damage to heavy infantry.
Assuming you even used the Combat Card, those numbers change to 40.5 and 60.75.

Renegados? They deal 60 damage to heavy infantry and 40 damage to light infantry.
As you can see, training Renegados frees up your food. You don't need to get the Arsenal and research CIR.
The high base damage also means that once the Janissary meatshield is clear, your Renegados also deal good damage to the Abus Guns themselves (20), unlike the Skirmishers (9 or 10.125 with the combat card).

At this stage, once you're engaging with Halberds, you no longer require hit and run. You just need that Janissary meatshield removed ASAP. Especially if it is also protecting Falconets that your Halberds are trying to get to.

Thus HERE is the time to use Renegados.

There is one exception, though. If you have Jaegers available at the Saloon, then researching CIR and using those makes more sense. These babies will deal 90 damage a shot to the Janissaries and 15 to the Abus Guns. A more than acceptable tradeoff.

Other than that, go nuts with the Renegados. Except you don't even need that many. Just 10 as support will do an excellent job. And at this point you can actually afford the pop space for them.

They will also do a good job of fighting swarms of individually weak light infantry, such as Macehualtin or Strelets, against which Skirmishers really suck. It's the base damage difference. With 10-15 Renegados backing up your Halberds, you will even cut through these light infantry swarms with your Halberds.

And since you have the Saloon up anyway, throw in some Merc melee cavalry for extra fun, if they're available. And hey, what do you know, if the enemy has any ranged anti-cav or Eagle Knights, your renegados will annihilate those too (60 damage a shot too them as well). Convenient, isn't it?



"One wants to be loved, failing that admired, failing that feared, failing that hated and despised. One wants to instill in other people some form of emotion. The soul shudders before emptiness and wants contact, no matter the cost."
AuthorReplies:
Makita
Skirmisher
posted 12-14-06 06:27 PM EDT (US)     1 / 9       
So, do you still send the Dance Hall card then?

You would probably want to send the halb speed and combat cards first.

Unless you saved up cards (not likely), that might take a while.

Ender_Ward
Skirmisher
posted 12-14-06 08:31 PM EDT (US)     2 / 9       
You don't need Dance Hall at this point. The Renegados are just support units, not your main force, and you have the pop space for ~10 of them. Sending Dance Hall would be a waste of a card unless you planned to train Ronin.

"One wants to be loved, failing that admired, failing that feared, failing that hated and despised. One wants to instill in other people some form of emotion. The soul shudders before emptiness and wants contact, no matter the cost."
Ranger General
Skirmisher
posted 12-14-06 09:34 PM EDT (US)     3 / 9       

Quote:

you have the pop space for ~10 of them.


?? That is 6*10=60 pops=5 extra houses when you compare 10 renegadors to skirmishers.
You also spend an extra 200 wood on a Saloon.
I won't be so optimistic about renegados because their housing cost(without Dance Hall card) is too high for a Dutch FF. I would rather take these wood to build Falcs.
10 renegados take more than twice the pop space of you Halb army, that is too much for a "support" unit.

Ulti's word of wisdom :

since the start of aoe3, every unit that can move has been a direct counter to grenadiers, even villagers(since they have bonuses against siege troops)

[This message has been edited by Ranger General (edited 12-14-2006 @ 09:36 PM).]

Ender_Ward
Skirmisher
posted 12-14-06 10:45 PM EDT (US)     4 / 9       
I tend to always buffer ahead with my housing. I normally see people in recs build a house when they're at max pop, and that's it. Me, I normally build 2-3 of them whenever hitting the limit. Thus I always have a pop space buffer available.
It's a habit I developed because I hated getting unterrupted and having to pull away from microing units in a battle to build a house, when I suddenly find out that I can't train additional reinforcements.
So I usually end up with ~100 pop space available by mid Fortress but because I rerely use the 3 and 4 villager cards, I stil have low villager counts (but 3-4 Banks). At this point, with about 70 pop space available for military it's no big deal to train ~10 Renegados after ~20-25 Halberds.

And Falconets aren't a good idea with Abus Guns around.


"One wants to be loved, failing that admired, failing that feared, failing that hated and despised. One wants to instill in other people some form of emotion. The soul shudders before emptiness and wants contact, no matter the cost."
Strong Man
Skirmisher
posted 12-16-06 05:13 AM EDT (US)     5 / 9       
Renegado: delivers a high damage and gets killed before the second. Costs lots of wood, in housing.

In case I don't see ya, good afternoon, good evening and good night!
Krator
Skirmisher
posted 12-16-06 02:36 PM EDT (US)     6 / 9       
The Rate of Fire of these things just sucks too much.

"Death is nothing, but to live defeated and inglorious is to die daily."
- Napoleon Bonaparte
ub3r
Skirmisher
posted 12-16-06 11:43 PM EDT (US)     7 / 9       
I mean this thread can go either way. In one way you could say "WTF? Why would you invest in these pop-costly units when you have 3 to 4 better options at your disposal, not to mention way better selections from the same building come fortress."

Or you could agree, looking at the fact that Renegados are what, less than 100 gold? They do take up pop, but if you have sufficient housing, along w/ at least 4 Banks up, you can have a very effective "support" squad as Ender mentioned.

But hey Ender honestly tho, your assesment of Outlaws before the game hit shelves was kinda off the mark. I mean you said as an Ottoman player, why would you even train Jannisaries.

Could you picture yourself sending DanceHall and trying to train 5-10 Renegados before 6 min as Ottoman now?


"Were surrounded.........this simplifies things." - Chesty Puller USMC 1950

"Let your plans be dark and as impenatrable as night, and when you move, fall like a lightning-bolt." - Sun Tzu
Ender_Ward
Skirmisher
posted 12-17-06 00:33 AM EDT (US)     8 / 9       

Quoted from ub3r:

But hey Ender honestly tho, your assesment of Outlaws before the game hit shelves was kinda off the mark. I mean you said as an Ottoman player, why would you even train Jannisaries.

I said that before units like Rodeleros and Halberds made it a necessity to keep training large numbers of Janissaries.

And let's not forget that I was actually mostly talking about Commancheros and Black Riders, Manchu, Swiss Pikes and Corsairs or even Ronin, replacing Janissaries.
I've done the Black Rider, Swiss Pike, Commanchero and Corsair versions.
(I especially liked the Black Riders, because I also used Irregulars with them ... muhahaa!)
But I've fallen out of habit of putting up the Saloon because I don't know what I'll get before I do so (with regards to the Mercs). I usually put it up in Fortress these days, when I remember and can easily afford the wood. But I seem to always get Merc melee cavalry as Ottoman. Which, with Abus Guns, I really don't need.

That and many games end with me stil in Colonial, or in early Fortress, before I really have a chance to utilise the Mercs.

It's not that I was wrong about how Outlaws would be used. It's just that we could not anticipate the extent to which the civ balance would shift. The civs you meet most on ESO now, they require Abus Guns, ASAP (due to very strong light infantry). And so as much as I would love to continue training Commancheros for anti-cav, or do a Pistoliero rush, with Abus being a requirement, I can no longer afford to spend gold on anti-cav. I have to use my excess food instead. And that means good old Janissaries.

Against the old civs without good light infantry in Colonial, such as Portuguese, Germans or even French to an extent, you can stil do a Pistoliero rush with Ottomans (or Dutch for that matter). You need three cards to make it truly viable. 40% Faster infantry training card, followed by Dance Hall, followed by 700 wood, as your standard Colonial card progression.
You get 'em out in 30 seconds then, or slightly faster than 5 Jans from a single Barracks.

But you almost never meet these civs, these days. And surely it's obvious why using Pistolieros against Dutch, Sioux, Russians or even Aztec, is suicide ...
Just like using pure Janissaries or Muskets.

Really, in TWC, pure heavy infantry rushes, aside from the Rodelero rush, aren't really viable anymore against the Natives and half the Europeans.

Quoted from ub3r:

Could you picture yourself sending DanceHall and trying to train 5-10 Renegados before 6 min as Ottoman now?

I've done it as Dutch, actually, that 40% faster infantry training card rocks for outlaw/merc strats. I've actually beaten Ottoman rushes using Renegados/Hussars.

As Ottoman I finally decided I didn't need to. While Abus Guns aren't as powerful against heavy infantry as Renegados, ultimately they're more useful because they can hit and run. Now if I DIDN'T have Abus Guns, you bet your ass I'd be training Renegados left and right.

ECONOMICALLY I can easily support them. After all, they cost less than Abus Guns.

And I've thought many times about training Ronin as my anti-cav for the Abus Guns. But every time I shied away from them. These days I use my Jans as sacrificial lambs. They draw cannon and light infantry fire away from my precious Abus. I really couldn't do that with Ronin, realistically.

That and whenever I set myself the goal of using Ronin in a protracted Fortress conflict against the likes of Spanish or French (Lancers/Cuirassiers), I just ... forget! After a year of playing Ottomans more or less one way, in the middle of the carnage of a close game it's hard to actually remember to send Dance Hall and train Ronin.

So most games end up with me never even trying.



"One wants to be loved, failing that admired, failing that feared, failing that hated and despised. One wants to instill in other people some form of emotion. The soul shudders before emptiness and wants contact, no matter the cost."
ub3r
Skirmisher
posted 12-17-06 02:15 AM EDT (US)     9 / 9       
Oh but Ronin are exciting! With over 300 damage every 3 secs to cav, they are the hardest cav counter available. I mean if a person sees even just 5 Ronin they have to be an ass-hatted moron to throw any type of cav at it.

This creates a very large problem considering CIR Abus raping everything that not cav, but the opponent cav is useless becuz of 5 mashed Ronin.


"Were surrounded.........this simplifies things." - Chesty Puller USMC 1950

"Let your plans be dark and as impenatrable as night, and when you move, fall like a lightning-bolt." - Sun Tzu
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