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Age of Empires III Heaven » Forums » General Discussions » How is Iroquois one of the best civs?!
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Topic Subject:How is Iroquois one of the best civs?!
Siciliano_NY
Skirmisher
posted 01-26-07 08:54 AM EDT (US)         
Someone please explain this to me - is this just purely based on their ability to rush? If so, that's pretty lame - why would I wanna rush every game? There's not much fun in that. I'm wondering why they're considered so good when they have such damned late cannons! I keep getting trampled in fortress age by artillery, no matter what I do...
If I try to turtle and save up enough loot to age up to IV to get my own cannons, I get swarmed by cav/musks/skirms/etc before I can age, and get overtaken due to the small size of my army. If I decide not to save up right away and try to build a nice army in ages II/III, then the goddamn culvs or cannons come in and steamroll me. There's no way to constantly pump out villi's, make a nice size army to defend, AND save up resources to age up to IV without getting hit with a pretty big army backed with artillery.

So, what am I supposed to do against this damned early artillery as Iro's?

AuthorReplies:
empireVeljanoski
Skirmisher
posted 01-26-07 09:18 AM EDT (US)     1 / 24       
hi well people say that mantlets r pretty good at withstanding enemy fire.
Ossian
Skirmisher
posted 01-26-07 09:51 AM EDT (US)     2 / 24       
Get 2 warhuts from aging then age to fortress, once there send 8 forest prowlers followed by either 5 musket riders or 5 mantlets. Keep spamming the prowlers and make a few more musket riders, don't forget that musket riders can do a lot of damage to cannons, and FP can stagger to take less losses while your riders work on his artillery.

Remember to never let your War chief's crack shot to idle, if he has it and your near the enemy run up and shoot them and run off, this with soften his forces a lot before you attack.


*WINDOWS CRITICAL ERROR 19891126*
Product ID: Ossian Discontinued
Contact your network admin for more details
about this special edition of player...

Allthough cetans are darker, did you know that if you read the word 'cetan' as a dutch word, that you get the same sound as when reading 'satan' in english.-Furby Killer
somme
Skirmisher
posted 01-26-07 12:21 PM EDT (US)     3 / 24       
In North America, Great House tcs that fire arrows > cannons...

ESO : Pcfreak8
"In theory, there is no difference between theory and practice, but in practice there is." -Jan L. A. van de Snepscheu
A pessimist is usually right and never disappointed.
Any history buff knows that nothing stops a cannon like a good uppercut. - BeatnikJoe
Voltiguer
Skirmisher
posted 01-26-07 01:28 PM EDT (US)     4 / 24       
In TWC, guys who are just armed with a gun and a coat can withstand canonballs and horsemen, armed with swords and heavy armour!
Medio
Skirmisher
(id: Mediolanus)
posted 01-26-07 02:00 PM EDT (US)     5 / 24       
I think it's kinda funny that the combinations of painted half-naked men with muskets and portable wooden walls are considered the most OP combo nowadays.
Zongo
Skirmisher
posted 01-26-07 02:57 PM EDT (US)     6 / 24       
I think Iro is only "OP" at the lower levels, just like otto, cuz its easy to play em.
you dont hear may pro's saying Iro is OP though - cannons > iro

Old Indian: Once upon a time, a woman was picking up firewood. She came upon a poisonous snake frozen in the snow. She took the snake home and nursed it back to health. One day the snake bit her on the cheek. As she lay dying, she asked the snake, "Why have you done this to me?" And the snake answered, "Look, bitch, you knew I was a snake."
Lightning_Rider
Skirmisher
posted 01-26-07 03:28 PM EDT (US)     7 / 24       
Iro are one of the best civs in the pro levels.
F1RE_FLY
Skirmisher
posted 01-26-07 03:41 PM EDT (US)     8 / 24       
Forest prowlers can beat artillery if they get in range.

You can't rush iroquois successfully at equal skill levels, even if they FF (only otto). If they rush, only cetan spam or big button jags have an advantage.

You can't cost effectively beat prowlers + mantlets in early fortress. Especially if 5+ musket riders are present. So rule out FFing with them.

They can have 2 warhuts up for FREE before 4:30 minutes, so they can either defend themselves or establish total map control before you know what's up.

And great house can one shot kill many siege units, makes their TCs cheap so they can get a good eco quickly in age 3, and basically just makes anything within their TC range a dead man walking.


~иииииииииииииииииииииииииииииииииииииииииииииииииииииииии~
ESO: F1R╔_FLП
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Lord_Richjp
Skirmisher
posted 01-26-07 03:45 PM EDT (US)     9 / 24       
Play a few matches Aztec vs Iro and you'll see.

My grandmother slaps harder than the Agra Fort shoots. And she's dead. ~ Ender_Ward

By the same token, if I attempt to operate the mouse using nothing but my butt-cheeks, micro will also come down to "luck." ~ Beatnikjoe
Brtnboarder495
Skirmisher
posted 01-26-07 03:54 PM EDT (US)     10 / 24       
Even my lame Spain FF failed! He just retreated (he semi rushed), and aged to 3, then got 3 TC's up ASAP, sent agraian ways (assuming since it was in his deck and he managed to beat me without hunts and gold mines). spammed walls and war huts, then spammed prowlers (suprise suprise) then aged to 4 and spammed literally 20 light cannons. I couldn't keep up economically, since economy isn't Spain's strong point, and since lancers can't be produced as quickly as FP from 20 war huts ...

This is bad though, you know when something is beyound Spain's lameness it's really lame :O


Gameranger: _NiGhThAwK_
Gomezd
Skirmisher
posted 01-26-07 06:28 PM EDT (US)     11 / 24       
Is it only me who thinks that 5 Curis for 500 Gold and a shipment is a bargain?

I mean there isnt much that can beat 5 curis in early fortress, specially backed up by 8 FP.....

exc4libulz1022
Skirmisher
posted 01-26-07 09:08 PM EDT (US)     12 / 24       
try to field some musket riders against the cannon, the shipment of 5 wont do crap, get at least 10 and you should be able to take out the 2 falc shipment, at least enough that ur prowlers arent bulldozed by it.

"he will have a hard getting banks up"
~rel4xed

"I accidently drop kicked someone once"
~george_uk

Brtnboarder495
Skirmisher
posted 01-26-07 11:09 PM EDT (US)     13 / 24       
Yea that 5 cuirs early fortress against a player not in fortress can be devastating in some situations, but once it's gone it's gone. It's either really effective, or a huge waste - I find.

Gameranger: _NiGhThAwK_
KingSteve3721
Skirmisher
posted 01-27-07 12:25 PM EDT (US)     14 / 24       
Maybe because of the fact that they are in some way an improved "basic civ" with no disadvantages. Too many bonuses and lack of disadvantages pretty much sums it up.

[FeaR]{KingSteve3721}
“I love my name of honor, more than I fear death.”- Julius Caesar
"The Pope! How many divisions has he got?"- Joseph Stalin
"The hand that gives is above the hand that takes. Money has no motherland; financiers are without patriotism and without decency; their sole object is gain."- Napoleon Bonaparte
"Dogs, would you live forever?"- Frederick the Great (addressing retreating Prussians at the Battle of Kolin)
Beren Erchamion
Skirmisher
posted 01-28-07 01:00 AM EDT (US)     15 / 24       
ff for cannons will beat prowlers and shipments. u can send or make some kind of meatshield while spamming cannons.

Only problem then is if the IRO falls back into a boom and you cant keep up.

500g for 5 curass when french could send 3 free. so rly ur paying an extra 500 for 2 more.

or look at it as 1000 gold shipment or pay 500 and get 5 cur.

then its like 1500 ur paying (potential 1000) divided by 5 gives you 300 gold per curaiss.

so no I do not think its a bargain.

Gomezd
Skirmisher
posted 01-28-07 01:24 AM EDT (US)     16 / 24       
French get 3, which asuming the shipment value is 1000 gold that would mean french pays 333.33 Gold for each of its Curis. but thats only 3, asuming he wants to get 5 he would have to build a stable and make 2 more.

5 Curis french = 1300 gold + 200 wood + 300 Food.

5 Curis Iros = 1500 Gold

It seems very economical to me, specially backed up by 8 FP shipment which is better than 8 skirm shipment french get.

Simply the fact that iros is able to get a shipment which is arguably equal to the spanish 5 lancers seems to me very VERY good.

KingSteve3721
Skirmisher
posted 01-28-07 02:02 PM EDT (US)     17 / 24       
^Thats a special mercenary shipment though....

You could just as easily say:

10 Jaegers french: 1000 gold.

10 Jaegers Dutch via saloon: 1800 gold.

Bad comparison, but FP are the best unit in the game right now.


[FeaR]{KingSteve3721}
“I love my name of honor, more than I fear death.”- Julius Caesar
"The Pope! How many divisions has he got?"- Joseph Stalin
"The hand that gives is above the hand that takes. Money has no motherland; financiers are without patriotism and without decency; their sole object is gain."- Napoleon Bonaparte
"Dogs, would you live forever?"- Frederick the Great (addressing retreating Prussians at the Battle of Kolin)
Brtnboarder495
Skirmisher
posted 01-28-07 02:38 PM EDT (US)     18 / 24       
Spamming cannons in a FF isn't that easy. You could easily be owned by ranged cav, which own falcs and heavy infantry with micro. You could be raped by melee cav if you go infantry and falcs.

You'll need at least a three unit combo, or a very well microed 2 unit combo, plus a falc spam in order to deal with prolwers. Oh and your explorer to deal with the prolwers in case they are stealted = one shot falc and GG.


Gameranger: _NiGhThAwK_
theboywonder916
Skirmisher
posted 01-28-07 03:06 PM EDT (US)     19 / 24       
i was in the same place as you friend, now im kicked-ass with iroquoise. Go and read my topic i posted, people replied with some good advice that got me on the right track. basically prowlers are op, mantlets are amazing at the front of the line vs ranged, musket riders to wonders vs cav and artilery. thats how you SURRVIVE age 3. Remember age three is rough because they have artillery and you dont. age 4 and your cannons will own all their are 4 cannons. I like to use a fire pit boom if your gonna turtle send great house, build 3 great houses (tc) in age 3 and a fire pit, put some dancers on fertility dance and crank out villagers until you have 30 on food and 40 on gold. you can switch to travoise dance if you need to make farms or plantations quick.
Gomezd
Skirmisher
posted 01-28-07 06:35 PM EDT (US)     20 / 24       
Steve,

I was just comparing the shipments the way he was.

But the comparison is slightly different to yours and I think its appropiate.

And if you consider the shipement worth a possible 1000gold then the Jaegers cost is actually 2000 gold >_< then in this case unlike the curi example the mercenary shipment isnt that much better.

Just becuse its a special mercenary shipment doesnt make the 5 curis any less effective than they would have been for a french player who trains them yet they are cheaper.

exc4libulz1022
Skirmisher
posted 01-29-07 03:10 AM EDT (US)     21 / 24       

Quote:

You could be raped by melee cav if you go infantry and falcs.

nothing is gonna be raped by kanyas.


"he will have a hard getting banks up"
~rel4xed

"I accidently drop kicked someone once"
~george_uk

Brtnboarder495
Skirmisher
posted 01-29-07 02:58 PM EDT (US)     22 / 24       
5 cuirs + 5 kanyas much?

Even mantlets for that matter.


Gameranger: _NiGhThAwK_
brandnizzle
Skirmisher
posted 01-29-07 08:34 PM EDT (US)     23 / 24       
5 cuirs is a great shipment.

math...

french ship 3 cuirs

iro ship 5 cuirs + 500 gold.

seeing as 2 cuirs cost 600 resources and youre paying 500 for 2 more, and 20 seconds mroe ship time (which isnt too big a deal at all) its a good deal.

with VS its very close to getting 3 cuirs and makign 2, but you get 5 at once instead of the french 3 and without a stable.

[This message has been edited by brandnizzle (edited 01-29-2007 @ 08:34 PM).]

Brtnboarder495
Skirmisher
posted 01-29-07 09:12 PM EDT (US)     24 / 24       
I'm sorry but why did you randomly calculate the worth of the shipment lol.

To make it easier to compare, take the French 5 cuir age 4 shipment. It ships in 15-20 seconds faster than the Iro age 3 one, but is worth 1600 resources, where as the Iro one is worth 1500 resources but ships 15-20 seconds later. It's a very fair shipment.


Gameranger: _NiGhThAwK_
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