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Age of Empires III Heaven » Forums » General Discussions » Which card should go?
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Topic Subject:Which card should go?
MockHamill
Skirmisher
posted 03-16-07 05:50 AM EDT (US)         
I am trying to make an Aztec deck for the standard quick search 1vs1 land map. The colonial cards are quite easy but in fortress I cannot fit in all the cards that I would like. These are my fortress picks:

- 8 Villager card
- 1000 wood card

- 10 Coyote runners
- 6 Arrow Knights

- Ruthlessness (Eagles get bonus vs. vills)

- Knight combat (+15% att / + 15% hp)
- Knight Attack (+15% att)
- Knight Hit points (+15% hp)

- Great chinampa (+15% farm/plantation gather rate)
- Agrarian Ways (free food/gold upgrades)

- Macehulatin temple card (+25% Mace hp)
- Eagle temple card (+4 range)
- Coyote Runner temple card (+20% attack)

That is 13 cards but only 10 slots are available. So I need to remove 3 cards. Which 3 cards should go?

[This message has been edited by MockHamill (edited 03-16-2007 @ 06:09 AM).]

AuthorReplies:
schildpad
Skirmisher
posted 03-16-07 06:17 AM EDT (US)     1 / 15       
Allthough my aztec deck is kinda outdated, i would remove both knight attack and hp, knight combat should be enough. Allthough if you want to go hardcore eagle laming you might want to keep them.

And you can take out 8 settler, allthough it is a decent card, if you put your firepit with aztecs on fertility you have them in no time.


"such a kind fellow!" ~ ķįŋğ_Ćħŗĩ_ĬĬ

Furby killer should be crowned leader of AOE forum ~ [SW_GD]Teutonic

RF_Gandalf
Skirmisher
posted 03-16-07 06:24 AM EDT (US)     2 / 15       
I would cut the Mace and Eagle temple cards and Ruthlessness.

You definitely want the villager and wood cards, the great chinampa and agrarian ways to get your great late economy going.
You also need the 6 AKs and the 10 Coyotes.

The Coyote temple card, in my opinion, is the best of those type available since I use lots of coyotes.

And the cards to boost knights are pretty valuable as well -I definitely always want the Knight combat, plus the other 2 if you have room in your deck.

Why dont you try a couple variations and see what works best for you?

schildpad
Skirmisher
posted 03-16-07 06:45 AM EDT (US)     3 / 15       
Whatever you do, i would keep the eagle temple card, that card is what makes eagle runners so good

"such a kind fellow!" ~ ķįŋğ_Ćħŗĩ_ĬĬ

Furby killer should be crowned leader of AOE forum ~ [SW_GD]Teutonic

justiw
Skirmisher
posted 03-16-07 08:50 AM EDT (US)     4 / 15       
I would drop the Knight Hp, and Knight attack cards and then it would be a tossup between 6 AK and 8 vils. 6 AK is a pretty bad shipment value, but it can save your butt against a FF to falcs. 8 vils aren't that great either because you can train them so fast with the FP+WP. The 10 vils +10% card is much better IMO. The only other card I don't like is the mac temple card, but that depends on your playstyle.

My fortress cards are:
1000 wood
10 coyotes
6 eagles
6 jaguar knights
ruthlessness
agrarian ways
great chinampa
knight combat
eagle temple card
coyote temple card


Counter the attack, then Counter Attack!!!
Catabre
BFME2H Replay Reviewer - Library Guildsman
posted 03-16-07 09:44 AM EDT (US)     5 / 15       
I have the arrow knight temple card in their which rreplaces coyote card. I love arrow knights range. But listen to the other guys they have more experience with the game. Hey Gandalf are you releasing any new maps soon?

"Apparently, arguing for the right to do something no-one wants to do is the lifeblood of HG." - TaylorFlame

"Whatever happened, BFME2H did it better. No Exceptions." - EnemyofJupitor
Beatnik Joe
Skirmisher
posted 03-16-07 12:07 PM EDT (US)     6 / 15       
I'm going to assume that this is not an FF deck, but if it is, you're going to need the 6 ERK card (at the very least), which will constrain you further. Assuming that's not the case, though, here are the ones you could get rid of, in order of the ones I use least.

Candidates for dismissal:
- Macehulatin temple card (+25% Mace hp) [I don't generally build these guys from mid-fortress on, so this shipment wouldn't do too much for me.)]
- 6 Arrow Knights [This isn't a terrible card, but it's just weaker than average. I find myself usually building any arrow knights I need. If truly desperate, the Big Button is there as well.]
- 10 Coyote runners [If this is an FF deck, this card is essential, but otherwise it's optional]
- Knight Hit points (+15% hp) [A good card, of course, but when you're up against a limit...]

Harder to part with:
- 8 Villager card [Another pretty good card, but it can be ditched if you have to.]
- 1000 wood card [A very fine card, but just shy of the "essential" category, especially if this deck is for a long colonial.]
- Knight Attack (+15% att)
- Coyote Runner temple card (+20% attack) [Only give this up if you are sure you won't need Coyotes.]

Essential:
- Agrarian Ways (free food/gold upgrades) [Fantastic card.]
- Eagle temple card (+4 range) [Essential for Eagle spam]
- Ruthlessness (Eagles get bonus vs. vills) [Unless you aren't planning on spamming eagles.]
- Knight combat (+15% att / + 15% hp)
- Great chinampa (+15% farm/plantation gather rate) [Nerfed as it is, you're going to need this card to get the gold for Eagle Spam, IMO.]


Strategies:
- BWKiC - A British Fast Fortress strategy
- The Aztec Scout Slam- An Envoy Rush, Native-Style
SUX2000
Skirmisher
posted 03-16-07 12:29 PM EDT (US)     7 / 15       
drop 6 arrows, knight atk and knight hp

u could switch one of those out for mace temp card or 8 vills if u want.


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zion_CDawg
Skirmisher
posted 03-16-07 05:37 PM EDT (US)     8 / 15       
I'd drop these:
8 vills - easy enough to pump out 8 vills with the firepit
One of either Knight HP or Attack (dunno whats better)
One of the temple cards - either coyote or mace.

It's not too often I find myself affording more than one temple card in fortress, and once I go to industrial, I want to send the 2000 gold Jaguar knight temple card.



Currently retired from AOE3... moved on to LOTRO... yeah an MMO... but a fun one!
Hockey fan for Life:
"I believe the Canucks of Vancouver are formidable warriors." -Teal'c, Stargate SG-1

[This message has been edited by ZION_CDawg (edited 03-16-2007 @ 05:37 PM).]

MockHamill
Skirmisher
posted 03-16-07 06:04 PM EDT (US)     9 / 15       
Ok, I decided to drop the following cards:

- 8 Villager card.
- Eagle Temple card (+4 range)
- Ruthlessness

The villager card is good but Aztecs can build villagers very fast with 4 WP on fertility dance. I rather keep 1000 wood so that I can get another TC up.

I also decided to drop the Eagle cards since I do not use Eagles much. If I am fighting against ranged infantry I prefer to use maces + Coyote runners.

If my opponent builds cav I prefer JK since they beat both cav and hand infantry. Eagles require more micro if you go against a Rod/Lancer combo. Less micro = less risk for stupid mistakes. (This is probably half the reason why the Great House boom is so good).

And I still have all the Knight upgrade cards so I can build ok Eagle Knights if necessary.

Roark
Skirmisher
posted 03-16-07 06:24 PM EDT (US)     10 / 15       
those are 3 of the BEST cards the aztecs have, don't touch those

I'm 2k+ with aztecs and out of all those I think 6 arrow knights is the weakest card, replace it with 6 eagles

in 1v1 i don't think the attack/hp cards are needed, i don't have the time to send those unless the game is already in hand. combat should be enough. you can also get rid of either mace temple or coyote temple (depending on which unit you use least) but DON'T touch eagle temple. +4 range for eagles is OP and the weak aztecs need it


ESO: Naevius
Beatnik Joe
Skirmisher
posted 03-16-07 06:51 PM EDT (US)     11 / 15       
Mock, I'd strongly recommend keeping those Eagle cards. Eagles really are your best unit. Take another hard look at those Macehualtin statistics per-pop compared to Eagles and ask yourself if you really want to turn down ERKs.

Also, the solution to rod \ lancer? Mass ERK w/ a few jags in front for meat. Seriously. You will make them cry. (As long as you remember to take that +4 range upgrade!) ERKs with +4 range and the knight upgrades are just pure, grade-A pain.

I really would advise reconsidering and giving ERKs a 2nd look. You are missing out on one of the very best units in the game.


Strategies:
- BWKiC - A British Fast Fortress strategy
- The Aztec Scout Slam- An Envoy Rush, Native-Style
MockHamill
Skirmisher
posted 03-16-07 07:25 PM EDT (US)     12 / 15       
When I have done my unit tests Maces has beaten every single skirmishers type unit in the game + longbows for cost, except streelets.

When I did the same tests with Eagles they lost to skirmishers, muskets and longbows. They are simply not cost efficient.

I really do not understand why people say that Eagles are good. Yes, they are good for pop but in a tight game you cannot afford to use a resource ineffective unit.

Maces alone defeat the famous musketeer + skirm combo that everyone says is the ban of Aztecs. Maces + JK defeat skirms + halbs.

I am thinking about writing a whole post just to prove that maces are superior to eagles in almost every way.

Beatnik Joe
Skirmisher
posted 03-16-07 07:45 PM EDT (US)     13 / 15       

Quoted from MockHamill:

I am thinking about writing a whole post just to prove that maces are superior to eagles in almost every way.


I'd welcome your post -- I think it's always worth re-examining old conclusions when the analysis is good. But really do take another look at just how pop-efficient ERKs are and how pop-inefficient Maces are by comparison. ERKs just straight-up rock when large, full-pop, full-upgrade armies are banging it out.

You have to remember that Maces do not get anything beyond their 1.5x bonus vs. heavy infantry. They get only 1 upgrade card. Every other civ in the game except Brits has access to a 2x base bonus skirm and counter-infantry rifling. That's why HI\skirm is such a safe build-out against Aztec.

But I really would like to read any thoughts you have on it. Having my mind changed on this subject would be enlightening indeed.


Strategies:
- BWKiC - A British Fast Fortress strategy
- The Aztec Scout Slam- An Envoy Rush, Native-Style
John_Galt_750
Skirmisher
posted 03-16-07 09:13 PM EDT (US)     14 / 15       
I agree with Mock a little. Maces are underestimated in fortress. Elite Maces can dish out a lot of damage providing someone stands there and takes it.

Also ERKs are slightly overrated, now that people have figured out how to hit hard with a lot of ranged inf in early fortress. Aztecs have to consider a cost effective military while getting that monstrous age3 eco moving.

However, the upgraded late game power of the ERK cannot be denied. Keep the mace card if you really want, but find room for ERK temple and ruthlessness. If the game goes to age4 ERKs will be your only option.

My age3 cards are:
AK temple - Great for taking out Forts, swap for mac temple if you want those instead.
ERK temple - Required hands down
Coyote temple - If they consistently mass skirms
Ag ways - A must for every Aztec
Great Chinampa - Not too sure about this one anymore
10 coyotes - Counter to 2 falcs + Skirms
6 ERKs - Counter to everything else
Knight combat - A must
Knight attack - Swap this for 1000w if you must
Ruthlessness - Makes me smile every time I use it

I never FF however. I tend to stick it out in colonial until I am out of Jag BBs. I would rather send ag ways for an eco boost, over the 1000 wood or 8 vils. I only go to fortress to follow them or if I need AKs to pick apart a turtle. If you don't use land grab, swap the 1000w/Knight Attack for 3 farm travois.

[This message has been edited by John_Galt_750 (edited 03-16-2007 @ 09:14 PM).]

Gomezd
Skirmisher
posted 03-17-07 02:14 AM EDT (US)     15 / 15       
IMO the reason why maces under perform compared to eagles is quite simple.

Tho maces might be able to perform better agaisnt LI they get completly dominated by cav and cannons. Eagles chew tru cav and hold their own against cannons. THats the main reason why I think eagles are so much more efficient and versatile than maces.

Eagles are fool proof, thre isnt much that will destroy your eagle based army, however if you make maces the core of your army and enemy goes cav and cannon heavy you will suffer alot more than if you had eagles.

But in the other hand if he goes say skirm and musket combo your eagles wont die as fast as your maces would to cannon/cav.

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