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Age of Empires III Heaven » Forums » General Discussions » Maces vs. Eagle Knights unit tests
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Topic Subject:Maces vs. Eagle Knights unit tests
MockHamill
Skirmisher
posted 03-17-07 06:54 AM EDT (US)         
Some things are fact:

1) EK are more pop efficient then Maces.
2) EK defeat cav, Mace loses to cav.
3) EK do better vs. Falcs then maces.

Other claims I suspect are less true. Many believe that maces are worthless beyond colonial. That they cannot stand up to muskets, skirms or a musket+skirm mix since they lack upgrades.

In order to investigate if this was true or not, I decided to run some tests. All tests are based on equal amount of villager seconds. All tests were done using attack move and run several times.

Test A:

In these test both units had veteran/elite upgrade but no further upgrades.

20 Musketeers vs. 25 Maces = 14 Maces left
20 Musketeers vs. 13 EK = 10 Musketeers left

20 Skirmishers vs. 31 Maces = 18 Maces left
20 Skirmisher vs. 16 EK = 5 Skirm left

10 Skirm + 10 Musk vs. 28 Maces = 17 Maces left
10 Skirm + 10 Musk vs. 14 EK = 5 Skirm, 3 Musketeer left

Test B:

In these tests skirms, musketeers and eagles had the combat, hit points and attack upgrade cards. That is the 15/15 hp/attack card, the 15% hp card and the 15% attack card. Eagles also had the range upgrade. Maces had the only upgrade available to them, that is the +25% hp upgrade.

As in test A all units were veteran/elite.

20 Musketeers vs. 25 Maces = 9 Maces left
20 Musketeers vs. 13 EK = 10 Musketeers left

20 Skirmishers vs. 31 Maces = 15 Maces left
20 Skirmisher vs. 16 EK = 5 EK left

10 Skirm + 10 Musk vs. 28 Maces = 14 Maces left
10 Skirm + 10 Musk vs 14 EK = 5 Skirm, 1 Musketeer left

Conclusion:

Maces with the only upgrade they have defeat muskets and skirms with 3 different upgrades very cost efficient. So that they do not work in late fortress is a myth.

Fully upgraded EK defeat skirms for cost, but not as cost efficient as less upgraded Maces. Fully upgraded EK are defeated for cost by both musketeers and the musk+skirm combo.

[This message has been edited by MockHamill (edited 03-17-2007 @ 06:55 AM).]

AuthorReplies:
Medio
Skirmisher
(id: Mediolanus)
posted 03-17-07 07:30 AM EDT (US)     1 / 11       
You're microing one side and leave the other side unmicroed. I don't know whether that gives a fair test.

I would never use pure skirms+musks against an Aztec, I'd always have some backup cannons (but that might be me). And those things wtfpwnhxrz macehualtin.

Gomezd
Skirmisher
posted 03-17-07 07:32 AM EDT (US)     2 / 11       
Just curious, did the muskets went in melee against either EK or against the maces?
MockHamill
Skirmisher
posted 03-17-07 07:38 AM EDT (US)     3 / 11       
I did not micro any side. I also did tests without attack move where the units just started close together. The results were still almost identical.

I did not put any units into melee.

scriv1984
Skirmisher
posted 03-17-07 07:48 AM EDT (US)     4 / 11       
thank you for sharing this with us!
I always suspected this and could not understand people disregarding maces. WHenever i have had them, they have wasted the units they should, and died to those you would expect.
And despite what people say, they are an effective meatshield. This is due to their extremely low cost; coupled with fertility dance, you can get them out as fast as you can lose them
brandnizzle
Skirmisher
posted 03-17-07 09:01 AM EDT (US)     5 / 11       
without micro, War Wagons back when germany was on top would have lost to pikes, rods and even thew craptastic halbs of vanilla.

Hit and run is what makes the eagles so good, thats why everyone has the ERK range card.

Angel Walker
Skirmisher
(id: Just a player)
posted 03-17-07 09:38 AM EDT (US)     6 / 11       
Hit and running would make Eagles deafeat Musketeers, that's a fact. Against Skirmishers that doesn't make any difference though... Still, many civilizations can upgrade their Skirmishers much further with Advanced Arsenal, so I think that they are a wiser choice than Musketeers, even though the stats say the opposite.

On the other side, these tests may prove Macehualtins are worth it on Fortress Age. But on later ages, when pop count matters more and enemy units are far more upgraded, I say the current Eagle Knights spam is the best choice


ESO - Walker

>> Napoleonic Era --> Visit their Homepage!
"Holy *****" > Thunder (Ensemble Studios)

Retired from AoE3. But I do play AoK HD in Steam now and then.

[This message has been edited by Cherub Walker (edited 03-17-2007 @ 09:43 AM).]

Brtnboarder495
Skirmisher
posted 03-17-07 09:43 AM EDT (US)     7 / 11       
The thing is that with a hit and run able unit, such as these you used in your test, you must micro in order to correctly achieve an honest test. It's well known that eagles>maccas, and most likely anything else in age3 as well.

Gameranger: _NiGhThAwK_
SUX2000
Skirmisher
posted 03-17-07 02:07 PM EDT (US)     8 / 11       
How in hell can you have muskets beating ERKs? Even without micro, I don't see how that is possible if both start from far away from each other like they would in a real game. Musket has no range armor and smaller range while eagle has 30% and uber no startup animation 1.5 ROF attack. Also u have upgraded musks beating upgraded ERKs while upgraded skirms lose, despite the fact that skirms are a soft counter to ERKs and have ranged armor as well. Plus, skirms outrange upgraded ERKs while musks have 6 less range. The upgraded ERKs would have already killed half of the musks by the time they reached the ERKs in an actual game. I don't rust these results at all. This is another example of how the editor tests are crap.

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Ender_Ward
Skirmisher
posted 03-17-07 02:16 PM EDT (US)     9 / 11       
Macehualtin take 300 damage from Falconets while Eagle Knights only take 100. One of the major reasons why people choose the latter.

And as you mentioned, Eagle Knights can actually take out Falconets with focus fire (even without a 2x bonus like other "Dragoon" units), especially after the range upgrade, while Macehualtin can't, really.



"One wants to be loved, failing that admired, failing that feared, failing that hated and despised. One wants to instill in other people some form of emotion. The soul shudders before emptiness and wants contact, no matter the cost."
Ranger General
Skirmisher
posted 03-17-07 10:45 PM EDT (US)     10 / 11       

Quote:

Macehualtin take 300 damage from Falconets while Eagle Knights only take 100. One of the major reasons why people choose the latter.

And as you mentioned, Eagle Knights can actually take out Falconets with focus fire (even without a 2x bonus like other "Dragoon" units), especially after the range upgrade, while Macehualtin can't, really.


I agree with ender's points.

Also, machultin's food/wood based cost is one of its major downfall. The only other food/wood unit you have is the coyotes, which can't protect your macs from cavlary and you need a lot of them to reach cannons and kill them.

Eagle runner Knights, on the other hand are much easier to fit into the fast fortress coin/food economy, along with two of its best compliments-jaguar prolwer knight & arrow knight, which take care of meleeing heavy infantry & artillery nicely and benefit from the same upgrade card as eagle knights. Eagle Knights could also charge skirmishers with their high speed and force skirms to melee as well.


Ulti's word of wisdom :

since the start of aoe3, every unit that can move has been a direct counter to grenadiers, even villagers(since they have bonuses against siege troops)

[This message has been edited by Ranger General (edited 03-17-2007 @ 10:46 PM).]

Garlef
Skirmisher
posted 03-17-07 11:06 PM EDT (US)     11 / 11       
I'd suggest that you also do a test with equal Pop of Maces and ERK.

In late game you are often pop constrained, or, you have plenty of resources to pay for the more expensive ERKs.

So what happens if you have only 13 Maces v 20 Muskets?
25 ERK v 20 Muskets?

I suspect that Strelets are also better than ERKs in resource match up only... that is, if pop limit is not a factor.

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