Something Dopple said in another thread has finally triggered this "little" rant. Beware, lots of words!
So Dopple said, referring to Silk Road ATPs, how they were overrated ...
And I couldn't agree more.
It dawned on me, recently, that there's basically no reason left to play Ottomans. Everything you can do with them, you can do with Dutch better. You can't rush as fast, of course, but why would you bother anyway when it no longer works for Ottomans against the majority of the civs?
There isnothing (effective) unique left about the Ottomans. Abus Guns were it. They were the unique unit that did the job hand cavalry is supposed to do, but at range, without all the issues associated with cavalry.
It was the one unit in the game thatkept the disease that is LI spam in check.
A disease that's gottena lot worse in TWC.
This is why people hated this unit. It punished them for LI spam. Hard.
Well, not anymore.
And so there's nothing left. Even the "bonus" of free villagers isn't anything to write home about, when you've learned to train villager manually (as I finally have after a few games).
It's worth absolutely nothing, when you can play Dutch and relatively quickly max out on your villager count using 3 Stadhauder TCs, then forget about it completely, until some of them die in a raid.
So you tell me, what's left? Is it the Great Bombards? You never even see them in most games.
Is it ATPs + Saloon Mercs/Ronin? Banks + Saloon + Dutch mining works better and safer. And you'll run smack into the Plantation wall, fast (and you don't have Agrarian Ways nor the shipment to spend on Land Grab usually).
Is it rushing? You can't rush effectively anymore, as I said earlier.
Is it Spahi? Don't make me laugh. Waste of shipments, most of the time. Go throw your Spahi at Forest Prowlers or Wakinas. See how long they last.
Is it the Janissaries? Poor in Colonial in all tasks except taking damage. Even poorer in Fortress. I'll take the Dutch Halberds instead, thank you very much.
Like I said. Nothing left. Or rather, nothingeffective.
It's like this, you're fighting Iroquois, if you TP boom, you're still stuck in Colonial with a few Abus and Hussars (and perhaps some Jans) when your opponent hits Fortress at 6:40-7:00. While you're aging, you're being marauded by Prowlers + Warchief (particularly annoying with stealth) and when he gets you to garrison, he goes and kills your TPs which are exposed in the middle of the map.
You KNOW that the answer to Iroquois is a meatshield HI + Cannons + LI (for the Musket Riders).
That means Jans/Saloon Mercs + Abus + Falconets.
Oooookay. Good luck with that. By the time you're in Fortress, you got nearly nothing gathered because your villagers spent most of their time garrisoned. Once the harassment begins, it doesn't stop.
You don't have your TPs because they were destroyed while you were working on aging. You're not gonna be able to train or ship enough of either part of the needed forces. You're gonna have too few Jans/Mercs to protect from Cuirassiers and Kanya (yeah I actually see them used now). You're not gonna have enough Falconets to kill thehordes of Forest Prowlers. Not before they cavalry gets through to them and these said Forest Prowlers + Warchief in stagger formation and the Musket Riders focus fire them. And you most certainly wont have enough Abus Guns to deal with Musket Riders. Not that it would matter anyway if you did, 'cause they die faster than you can blink, these days.
Now, if you're Dutch, not only will you have all your Banks up before he is in Fortress. Not only will you have Colonial Militia and 199w TCs ready once you age yourself. Not only do you have the perfect counter to his rush (Colonial Skirmishers), if he chooses to do so. But you also don't suffer from the same harassment!
Villagers are stuck in the TC? Your 4 Banks are gathering. And your villagers are killing Prowlers in two hits (so their garrisoning isn't as wasted as for the Ottoman). When the Prowler mass retreats momentarily, you ungarrison villagers to the nearby mine, and because you actually do have a good number of villagers,and a built in mining bonus to boot, you've got the needed gold as you reach Fortress.
There are no nearly defenseless TPs to defend in the middle of the map.
And so when you, as Dutch, arrive in Fortress, you DO have the necessary resources to train the right units. Youcan get some 10-20 Skirmishers, some 15-20 Halberds and 5+ Falconets (obviously over time).
Indeed, you can spam Falconets so well that you can even overwhelm Great Houses. And then destroy everything around that GH, what it was protecting. You can keep the Iroquois on the GH rebuilding game pushing him further and further into a corner. And your gold will never run out, it will never stop giving you these new Falconets at the same exact rate. You won't be spending 800 wood for a horribly inefficient gold generator.
Oh and let's not forget the map control you gain with those 199w, CM enhanced TCs. More than that, you'll be at 50 villagers faster than you think.
But people cry, "Oh woe me, my late game economy sucks!".
Uh, no.
Get your 3 food cards. It ain't that hard (they're spread around 3 different ages). For +50% mill gather rate. Put 7 villagers each on 6 Mills (42 total, other 8 on wood).
Now spam fast (card upgraded) Royal Guard Halberds and Combat Card upgraded Guard Hussars till the cows come home.
It'll take until very, very late Imperial and an enemy who's deck is filled with economic upgrade cards to equal and finally slightly surpass your 11.5 Banks (after Tulip Speculation and Imperial) + 42 villagers on mills + 2 Factories economy.
For the period of time thatmatters in most 1v1 supremacy games, you'll have one of the best economies in the game. But more importantly, the second least raid susceptible one in the game.
And that's why I went back to Dutch as of today.
Then in that other thread, cyspur said something that I heard several times before.
It wouldn't matter. It made me laugh (sadly), because the idea that this would change anything, would be like applying a bandaid to a gashing wound. There, all better now!
There's no longer any point in playing Ottomans, at least until 1.04. Perhaps the cavalry boosts in that patch might change things. But I ain't holding my breath ...
"One wants to be loved, failing that admired, failing that feared, failing that hated and despised. One wants to instill in other people some form of emotion. The soul shudders before emptiness and wants contact, no matter the cost."
So Dopple said, referring to Silk Road ATPs, how they were overrated ...
Dopple writes:
Play Dutch and you will see what I mean.
And I couldn't agree more.
It dawned on me, recently, that there's basically no reason left to play Ottomans. Everything you can do with them, you can do with Dutch better. You can't rush as fast, of course, but why would you bother anyway when it no longer works for Ottomans against the majority of the civs?
There is
It was the one unit in the game that
A disease that's gotten
This is why people hated this unit. It punished them for LI spam. Hard.
Well, not anymore.
And so there's nothing left. Even the "bonus" of free villagers isn't anything to write home about, when you've learned to train villager manually (as I finally have after a few games).
It's worth absolutely nothing, when you can play Dutch and relatively quickly max out on your villager count using 3 Stadhauder TCs, then forget about it completely, until some of them die in a raid.
So you tell me, what's left? Is it the Great Bombards? You never even see them in most games.
Is it ATPs + Saloon Mercs/Ronin? Banks + Saloon + Dutch mining works better and safer. And you'll run smack into the Plantation wall, fast (and you don't have Agrarian Ways nor the shipment to spend on Land Grab usually).
Is it rushing? You can't rush effectively anymore, as I said earlier.
Is it Spahi? Don't make me laugh. Waste of shipments, most of the time. Go throw your Spahi at Forest Prowlers or Wakinas. See how long they last.
Is it the Janissaries? Poor in Colonial in all tasks except taking damage. Even poorer in Fortress. I'll take the Dutch Halberds instead, thank you very much.
Like I said. Nothing left. Or rather, nothing
It's like this, you're fighting Iroquois, if you TP boom, you're still stuck in Colonial with a few Abus and Hussars (and perhaps some Jans) when your opponent hits Fortress at 6:40-7:00. While you're aging, you're being marauded by Prowlers + Warchief (particularly annoying with stealth) and when he gets you to garrison, he goes and kills your TPs which are exposed in the middle of the map.
You KNOW that the answer to Iroquois is a meatshield HI + Cannons + LI (for the Musket Riders).
That means Jans/Saloon Mercs + Abus + Falconets.
Oooookay. Good luck with that. By the time you're in Fortress, you got nearly nothing gathered because your villagers spent most of their time garrisoned. Once the harassment begins, it doesn't stop.
You don't have your TPs because they were destroyed while you were working on aging. You're not gonna be able to train or ship enough of either part of the needed forces. You're gonna have too few Jans/Mercs to protect from Cuirassiers and Kanya (yeah I actually see them used now). You're not gonna have enough Falconets to kill the
Now, if you're Dutch, not only will you have all your Banks up before he is in Fortress. Not only will you have Colonial Militia and 199w TCs ready once you age yourself. Not only do you have the perfect counter to his rush (Colonial Skirmishers), if he chooses to do so. But you also don't suffer from the same harassment!
Villagers are stuck in the TC? Your 4 Banks are gathering. And your villagers are killing Prowlers in two hits (so their garrisoning isn't as wasted as for the Ottoman). When the Prowler mass retreats momentarily, you ungarrison villagers to the nearby mine, and because you actually do have a good number of villagers,
There are no nearly defenseless TPs to defend in the middle of the map.
And so when you, as Dutch, arrive in Fortress, you DO have the necessary resources to train the right units. You
Indeed, you can spam Falconets so well that you can even overwhelm Great Houses. And then destroy everything around that GH, what it was protecting. You can keep the Iroquois on the GH rebuilding game pushing him further and further into a corner. And your gold will never run out, it will never stop giving you these new Falconets at the same exact rate. You won't be spending 800 wood for a horribly inefficient gold generator.
Oh and let's not forget the map control you gain with those 199w, CM enhanced TCs. More than that, you'll be at 50 villagers faster than you think.
But people cry, "
Uh, no.
Get your 3 food cards. It ain't that hard (they're spread around 3 different ages). For +50% mill gather rate. Put 7 villagers each on 6 Mills (42 total, other 8 on wood).
Now spam fast (card upgraded) Royal Guard Halberds and Combat Card upgraded Guard Hussars till the cows come home.
It'll take until very, very late Imperial and an enemy who's deck is filled with economic upgrade cards to equal and finally slightly surpass your 11.5 Banks (after Tulip Speculation and Imperial) + 42 villagers on mills + 2 Factories economy.
For the period of time that
And that's why I went back to Dutch as of today.
Then in that other thread, cyspur said something that I heard several times before.
cyspur writes:
Next patch (Abus) 30% resistance pleaze!
It wouldn't matter. It made me laugh (sadly), because the idea that this would change anything, would be like applying a bandaid to a gashing wound. There, all better now!
There's no longer any point in playing Ottomans, at least until 1.04. Perhaps the cavalry boosts in that patch might change things. But I ain't holding my breath ...
"One wants to be loved, failing that admired, failing that feared, failing that hated and despised. One wants to instill in other people some form of emotion. The soul shudders before emptiness and wants contact, no matter the cost."
[This message has been edited by Ender_Ward (edited 05-08-2007 @ 02:04 AM).]