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Age of Empires III Heaven » Forums » General Discussions » The improved dog soldier dance
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Topic Subject:The improved dog soldier dance
George_uk
Skirmisher
posted 08-20-07 01:11 PM EDT (US)         
Their train points have decreased from 60 to 55. I applied the fan patch and with 25 vills dancing,

the time to make one dog soldier is now 20 seconds from 22.

ES assumes that dog soldiers are worth 300gold, 20 seconds is exactly 300g in VS terms (22 seconds was 330g).

You might say that this is only at basic 0.6g per second gathering rate, but I believe it was Ulti that said true plantation gathering rate is only 0.5 if you take into account all the vills bumping.

So now you know you are getting your pennies worth. But are dog soldiers really worth 300g? Cuirs cost 150g and 150f and are arguable better than dog soldiers.

They have huge hit points, siege, and a fairly high attack, with a bonus against infantry. Also more importantly they are auto upgrade. Late game would it be better to have 25 vills dancing for FU imperial dog soldiers with amazing siege (devastating with siege dance >>> Axe rider), or is it better to have those vills gathering food and gold for more axe riders? Or maybe even dancing for fertility and spamming out units.
Will this change make a difference to Sioux late game?

Will you use it?

EDIT: I accidently posted this in the wrong forum, can a Mod please move it to general discussions?

Previously known as MoNo Ager

[This message has been edited by George_uk (edited 08-20-2007 @ 01:56 PM).]

AuthorReplies:
PlasmaDogPlasma
Skirmisher
posted 08-20-07 02:40 PM EDT (US)     1 / 15       
Auto-upgrade is important to note. Just count some of that 300g per horse as the upgrade costs and they seem like a better deal.

Really though, whether they are really worth more than a Cuir or not isn't that important. They are what you have as Sioux. Late in the game you tend to have a lot of villies on the fire pit most of the time doing either the war dance or siege dance so at some point it becomes more efficient to just switch to dance 'b' and pump out DS than move villies back and forth between the pit and mills or plantations.
L_Clan_Socrates
VIP
posted 08-20-07 02:50 PM EDT (US)     2 / 15       
And also the fact that you don't have to make that plantation to gather the '300 gold' for the Dog Soldier.

[img]http://www.aoe3-arena.com/sign2/WaCkO,3,0.png[/img]
xentelian
Skirmisher
posted 08-20-07 03:59 PM EDT (US)     3 / 15       
You are better off to gather resource for something else than dancing at firepit for dog soldiers or skull knights.
When you figure on comparative costs for other similiar unit types or playing cards, resource gathering is about 25-40% more effective than dancing for those two units.
exc4libulz1022
Skirmisher
posted 08-20-07 04:11 PM EDT (US)     4 / 15       
20 seconds is still an eternity for one unit. IMHO these types of dances were flawed right from the go, but I'd have no idea where to start to fix them either, seems like they'd always be either UP or OP.

In the early game, you can't sacrifice 50-90% of your economy to get a few DS a minute, that just doesnt work. They are strong, but you need to be getting resources for upgrades at that point.

Lategame, they are still very strong, but in the very late game, speed of spammage is very important - you need to be able to get units out there fast and constant, or you're just gonna get flooded over and destroyed. That's one of the reasons we are seeing russia as a very strong lategame civ.

You aren't gonna see a sioux player go stick a firepit outside someone's wall with 25 vils dancing on it and be like....just you wait...in 5 minutes I'll have enough DS to REALLY pwn ur arse...Darn he already saw me.

"he will have a hard getting banks up"
~rel4xed

"I accidently drop kicked someone once"
~george_uk

[This message has been edited by exc4libulz1022 (edited 08-20-2007 @ 04:15 PM).]

Cyclohexane
Skirmisher
posted 08-20-07 04:45 PM EDT (US)     5 / 15       
ES assumes that dog soldiers are worth 300gold, 20 seconds is exactly 300g in VS terms (22 seconds was 330g).
True, but researching the first market upgrade (75 food 75 wood) makes this an untrue statement again. In that case, it is better to mine the gold and make units. If your opponent leaves you alone, yes it is worth it. Otherwise, spamming late game is a better option.

Mustangs should lower the spawn time an additional 2 seconds (shave 10% off the 300 gold cost to 270 gold).

Lead, Follow, or Get the Hell out of the way!................CYCLOHEXANE'S FREE GUIDES:

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As_Saffah
Scenario Reviewer
posted 08-20-07 05:25 PM EDT (US)     6 / 15       
You aren't gonna see a sioux player go stick a firepit outside someone's wall with 25 vils dancing on it and be like....just you wait...in 5 minutes I'll have enough DS to REALLY pwn ur arse...Darn he already saw me.
OMG I almost died lolin'

Okay, scenarios where DS dance is NOT worth it:
-you have fishbooming going on and can spam hella axe and RR
-you don't intend to let the game to go imperial (ship them instead)
-vs. cav spammers or Dutch/Ports
-vs gay house iros

scenarios where it MIGHT be the right thing to do:
-team game where everybody is in imp and there's a standoff. Backdoor them with a large horde of DS or use them in critical mass to punch a hole in a double wall or take down a factory
-vs Spain, Otto, Brits, Aztec

scenarios where it's DEF the right thing to do:

-your opp is AFK eating a sammich
-last 10 mins of a treaty period

So it's hard to know if and when to do this. IIRC George you can't get the DS dance until Fortress anyway so early game tricks of loading your pit and dancing the night away, that's not going to work.

I will probably end up using it more than I should, because it's cool, and DS are awesome siege threats. *shrug*

Definitely on a larger map, the travel time from pit to enemy is a factor, and if your opp sees the stream of ds assembling somewhere close to his base, he will keep their numbers low if he's smart. He will come and wreck your pit, if he's real smart.

It's definitely something to consider doing while you're aging up though. Amass resources, dance a little, make a few DS, arrive in Industrial with 4-5 upgraded DS, go make trouble.

Crunkatog on ESO
Bart331 balance suggestion: aztec: remove civ
Voltiguer: Ender, Sioux in 1.04 will be a top civ, no matter how many layers of Sioux goggles you put on
schildpad on Elephants: ...their mansabdar unit sucks so hard it looks like a black hole
Crunkatog on Steam.
TheGroovyGuy
Skirmisher
posted 08-20-07 05:30 PM EDT (US)     7 / 15       
While not having to spend any gold is a big plus, I still can't really see using the dog soldier dance much. As it was mentioned before, it doesn't work well with the spammage of lategame because they still take a long time to make. With zero train speed upgrades you get 5 cuirs a minute, with 25 dancers going you can only get 3 dog soldiers. Yes their free, but in lategame speed is more important.

Another problem is that you can't easily switch dances. If your attacked in mid-creation, what do you do? You either switch to the war dance and waste the villi seconds spent or you wait and fight at least part of the battle without it. If you could switch from it without losing what has been invested in it it would be much easier to use.
DrWho42
Skirmisher
posted 08-20-07 05:48 PM EDT (US)     8 / 15       
I seem to recall that the Dog Soldier dance is not available until industrial age? (not fortress as mentioned above).

Would it be worth it to ship the "riding school" card to reduce DS training time by 40%? If the above figures are correct, that could get you a DS every 12 seconds. A few minutes of this, plus your TC BB, plus any shipped DS could give you a formidable force. Not bad, but it still would need the right sort of game to make it possible.

Cheers
PlasmaDogPlasma
Skirmisher
posted 08-20-07 06:23 PM EDT (US)     9 / 15       
Riding school doesn't affect Dog Soldiers.
George_uk
Skirmisher
posted 08-21-07 05:03 PM EDT (US)     10 / 15       
Riding school doesn't effect it, neither does mustangs as cyclohexane pointed out. Mustangs affecting it and reducing its cost to 18 seconds is one of the best ideas I've heard in a while!

It is a fairly underused card atm and this should give it the umph it needs. I just think quietly adding to your collection of dog soldiers can be nice, you can get another 5 in no time while still spamming axe riders, (just not using the fertility). Then use the sioux BB or something to get 15 of them. It'll be interesting to see how it pans out, though I predict it will still be severly underused even after the attempted boost. It needs to be upgradeable somehow, because all the other upgrades you have affect Axe riders and they will eventually be a better choice to get resources for.

Wacko you will probably have a plantation by the time you reach industrial if you aren't going FI.

Previously known as MoNo Ager
As_Saffah
Scenario Reviewer
posted 08-21-07 05:06 PM EDT (US)     11 / 15       
Is it going to make it worth sending the DS merc card or Onikare, and when? I'm thinking these two cards don't confer a relevant benefit except vs. particular strats.

Crunkatog on ESO
Bart331 balance suggestion: aztec: remove civ
Voltiguer: Ender, Sioux in 1.04 will be a top civ, no matter how many layers of Sioux goggles you put on
schildpad on Elephants: ...their mansabdar unit sucks so hard it looks like a black hole
Crunkatog on Steam.
ultimitsu
Skirmisher
posted 08-21-07 05:32 PM EDT (US)     12 / 15       
true base rate for plantation is 0.39, with 10 vils it is down to 0.35~0.36.

but there are more things one has to take into account for DS dance:

1, you only have 1 Firepit, and in late game you have much use for it:

A, WC dance, considering WC is over twice as powerful as a DS, and dance to get him back is much faster than to get a DS,

B, attack dance, it has now been accepted that with 99 vills avaliable, have 25 vils on attack dance > 25 vils gathering res.

C, birth dance to mass troops quickly

D, siege dance


2, where are you going to fit in DS dance is another question, switching between all these dances, creating excess micro thus create more room for mistake, is it really worth it, or we can just have 25 vils on food giving us 400 food in 20 seconds, which turns into 8 coyote pets (who also get auto-upgrade), so whats hould I have, 8 coyote pets or 1 DS?

3, the flexibility of res is that you can turn them into any unit that is suitable for the given circumstance, whereas dancing for a particular unit doesnt give that. now I understand we all put factory on heavy cannons and rockets, but IMO that is largely because heavy artilleries are very good all-round units, they can beat light artilleries, infantry, and buildings, whether you want to lose that flexibility for a unit that is designed to fight infantry only is a different thing.

I am not saying DS dance wont be useful, I actually really look forward to it and play a DS orientated sioux late game, I am just saying that there are a lot more factors than what is apparent.
justiw
Skirmisher
posted 08-22-07 08:54 AM EDT (US)     13 / 15       
Here's a suggestion.

Instead of dancing to get 1 DS at a time, how about turning the dance into an 'upgrade.' Here's the idea, put the dancers on the upgrade dance (maybe make it take 5min+ with 1 dancer to finish), and after it's finished, you are allowed to train DS from your stable (maybe with a build limit like Tashunke).

Counter the attack, then Counter Attack!!!
Brtnboarder495
Skirmisher
posted 08-22-07 10:14 AM EDT (US)     14 / 15       
The fact that these beasts can be so powerful late game almost makes me thankful the dance isn't any faster. This combined with the BB tech late game and a fully populated army could really be what you need to push and win late game. I'm not sure if I would want another boost to their training time.

Gameranger: _NiGhThAwK_
ultimitsu
Skirmisher
posted 08-22-07 07:14 PM EDT (US)     15 / 15       
one question has always been is DS really that good?

individually they look pretty cool, but if you think of them as 3 pop, 300 res units, they are not that great. their siege is standard 10 per pop per 100 res, their attack is quite low at 9 per pop per 100 res (or 14.5 for infantry), their HP is the only decent attribute at 183 per pop per 100 res. 1.04 hussars are arguably better.

cuirs are obviously much better, they have more damage, less path finding issue, veteran based upgrades, Royal Guard, and as we know, they are going to get a price reduction in 1.04 too!

Lancers are also better, pumping out twice the the infantry damage per pop per 100 res, get RG, vet based upgrades, and 30% ranged resistance.
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