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Age of Empires III Heaven » Forums » General Discussions » Brits Vs. Dutch
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Topic Subject:Brits Vs. Dutch
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SmashNBash
Skirmisher
posted 07-08-07 06:40 PM EDT (US)         
WHY?
Why even bother to try to play. Everything a dutch player has was made to counter the british.

First lets look at colonial.

Longbows?
*scoff* Skirms and HR will take care of them

Muskets
Taunt 21, Skirms and HR.

Hussars maybe?
HAHAHA, that 1000 res investment will get mowed down by and skirms and HR. besides i got pikes.

Untouchable Bank? - Check

No decent colonial counters - Check

Phew that was a lot, now lets take a look at the Fortress Age.


Ah, now i have falcs! Those skirms are mine!
Too bad, Skirms' superior range and auto vet will make it easy to run away.

Hussars maybe?
LOL, ever heard of Ruyters?

But my muskets will take care of them.
They can run away!

Perhaps longows are now viable.
Perhaps, but my cannons will rape them, and even if they do defeat my army, they cant ever raid me, or even touch my banks!

Hard to Beat combos of Skirms Ruyters and Falcs? - Check

Eco that matches yours - Check

Lightning fast FF - Check



I just can't stnad going against them! They are so hard to stop. Skirms should beat hussars! They just run away and HR tem to death. Skirms need to slow down, and their HR should be taken away. Hussars should beat them, not the other way around.

Banks need less HP, they just can't be brought down!

I don't wanna sound like I'm getting mad about losing a game, but crap! It gets me so pissed off to see each ad ever AoE3 player out there abuse something that their civilization has!

Iros- Warhut, tomas
Sioux- Raiding
Aztec- Boat boom from hell
Dutch-.
France- Cuirs and overwhelming xbows
Spain- friggin rushes and FFs.
Russia- Sevastapol madness. well not really OP, but hard to keep up with, and Fort Spam >:-(

Britain has nothing to tkae advantage of. We need a boost, or other need a nerf.

Lolocausts are fun.
AuthorReplies:
LordKivlov
Royal Guard
posted 07-08-07 06:54 PM EDT (US)     1 / 38       
Follow his FF and ship 2 falcs in with longbows!

Once you get a large enough longbow group, he's not going to attack you with skirmishers he's gunna go for cannons and just get them with some culvs.

Proud Citizen of Sovietcanuckistan
brandnizzle
Skirmisher
posted 07-08-07 07:04 PM EDT (US)     2 / 38       
Hussars are actually a very good idea vs Dutch in colonial, the ol' Hussar + Skirm rush. Another is the musket + gren rush which might work well given they usally spend their colonial shipments not on CM or 8 pikes, but on wood. And against a Brit I doubt you'd see an early barracks.

On anothe rntoe, Lbows happen to be one of the best LI vs cannon due to their range and the arc that they form to attack, they can take 2 falcs down with a good number.

I'd say your best bet is to semi-ff with musekt harassment (check Seph's VOD for help), without food all he has is shipments and 1 by 1 or 2 by 2 the brit eco can deal with them.
ultimitsu
Skirmisher
posted 07-08-07 07:08 PM EDT (US)     3 / 38       
like said in the other thread... you really should get better at the game first before complaining so much.

british is one of the few civs that actually dont have as much trouble against dutch.

1, longbows single handedly beat every dutch unit apart from artillery, unless the dutch invest good amount into upgrading hussars or get powerful merc cav from saloo, massed longbows give dutch serious trouble, both their best units - skirm and ruyter lose to longbows badly.

2, dutch dont do lightening fast FF. their 4 bank FF is about the same speed as your standard FF. difference is you get better units shipments, and he has a eco lead, but you can even that eco difference with your continued boom.

3, a well timed grenadier rush kill 4 bank FF really well, dutch has no good cavalry shipment to handle grenadiers in fortress, if he fights you in colonial, skirms arent fast enough in killing grenadiers.

[This message has been edited by ultimitsu (edited 07-08-2007 @ 07:12 PM).]

George_III
Skirmisher
posted 07-08-07 07:09 PM EDT (US)     4 / 38       
Or just do a semi-FF with some muskets and lb's from a single rax, harrass like there were no tomorrow, try to get some houses or towers or TP's or whatever down, then age, get yeomen, falcs, what said Kivlov, and type gg!



Aw Brand told it before me

[This message has been edited by George_III (edited 07-08-2007 @ 07:10 PM).]

Brtnboarder495
Skirmisher
posted 07-08-07 07:32 PM EDT (US)     5 / 38       
Longbows?
*scoff* Skirms and HR will take care of them
Longbows beat skirms in 1v1 and have superior range.
Muskets
Taunt 21, Skirms and HR.
Yea muskets can beat longbows in small numbers, and even xbows, but your right, skirms rape them. They should though, they are a direct couunter.
Hussars maybe?
HAHAHA, that 1000 res investment will get mowed down by and skirms and HR. besides i got pikes.
If hussars didn't suck so much at countering infantry (skirms), then they would be more worth the investment. Sadly, at the moment HI+infantry beats heavy cav+infantry, by a long shot. Hopefully this proposed cav fix will help this along.
Untouchable Bank? - Check
Agreeable, Dutch's banks have way to much HP and this makes them impossible to take down earlier in the game unless you rush hard with loads of pikes or catch them during construction. This was a proposed nerf for Dutch (still is one, seeing as they are still strong), although was obviously never implemented.
No decent colonial counters - Check

That's a bit general, as I already said, longbows beat pikes (obviously), and hussars fair decent against skirms. If melee cav is boosted then I think the playing field will be balanced more.

Phew that was a lot, now lets take a look at the Fortress Age.
Ah, now i have falcs! Those skirms are mine!
Too bad, Skirms' superior range and auto vet will make it easy to run away.
2 culvs can OHKO up to 3 falcs close together, and at least one at the least if spread out. The entire auto vet thing is annoying now that Dutch aren't OP at all ... maybe they should remove the auto vet thing.
Hussars maybe?
LOL, ever heard of Ruyters?
Well longbows rape these things, but again this all comes back to the hussar issue.
But my muskets will take care of them.
They can run away!
Huh?
Perhaps longows are now viable.
Perhaps, but my cannons will rape them, and even if they do defeat my army, they cant ever raid me, or even touch my banks!
That's a little over dramatic, but killing a Dutch's eco is very hard since they can turtle well with banks and switch to farms or berries early on because they hardly rely on food.
Hard to Beat combos of Skirms Ruyters and Falcs? - Check
Britain isn't the only one with this issue, and the core of the issue is economy - particularly banks.
Eco that matches yours - Check
Britain can have a better economy by doing an age2 manor boom and then FFing. Sure it'll be 1-2 minutes later, but you can stay defensive and take advantage of your superior economy.
Lightning fast FF - Check
Not really, to get 3 banks + 1 bank wagon (if they ship it) and then FF, they won't be up before 8-8:30 with a barracks,stable and enough housing. If anything their FF time is average or late.
I just can't stnad going against them! They are so hard to stop. Skirms should beat hussars! They just run away and HR tem to death. Skirms need to slow down, and their HR should be taken away. Hussars should beat them, not the other way around.
You mean hussars should beat skirms? Your also exaggerating a bit with skirms vs hussars. In age3 hussars are buffed to the point where they are actually pretty viable, but then you have to watch out for ruyters which own them. Once again though, the melee cav issue is involved.
Banks need less HP, they just can't be brought down!
Over exaggeration and already stated, but true.
I don't wanna sound like I'm getting mad about losing a game, but crap! It gets me so pissed off to see each ad ever AoE3 player out there abuse something that their civilization has!

Iros- Warhut, tomas
Sioux- Raiding
Aztec- Boat boom from hell
Dutch-.
France- Cuirs and overwhelming xbows
Spain- friggin rushes and FFs.
Russia- Sevastapol madness. well not really OP, but hard to keep up with, and Fort Spam >:-(
Every civ has something they can lame to be honest, but the best way to beat the civs with somewhat reasonable lameness is to find a way to counter it. How do you think even OP civs have a win % not even close to 80 or 100? Iro is very OP yet is still at 60%, so in all honesty nothing is so lame that it's impossible to beat. If I've learnt anything, complain less, play harder, and you'll win more and become a better player.
Britain has nothing to tkae advantage of. We need a boost, or other need a nerf.
This I agree with, and not because I play Britain. They have been a sub par civ in 1v1 since the game was released. It's not like they are significantly UP, but their lack of a hit and run able infantry unit and slow start certainly hurts them in a world of aggressive FFing or rushing.

Gameranger: _NiGhThAwK_

[This message has been edited by Brtnboarder495 (edited 07-08-2007 @ 07:33 PM).]

SUX2000
Skirmisher
posted 07-08-07 07:50 PM EDT (US)     6 / 38       
While Dutch is a better civ than brit overall other civs have just as much trouble with dutch. Now try using Port vs Dutch agent FF.

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SmashNBash
Skirmisher
posted 07-08-07 07:50 PM EDT (US)     7 / 38       
well, thank you for agreeing with me brtnboardr, but lbows don't have H and R, skirms do, and they WILL take advantage of it. lbows have a dreadfully long starting animation which by then means that the intended target has gotten out of range. if the skirms stayed there lbows would surely beat them, but sadly, this isn't the case.

Lolocausts are fun.
Brtnboarder495
Skirmisher
posted 07-08-07 08:03 PM EDT (US)     8 / 38       
Once again, the entire infantry supremacy deal may wash down the drain if melee cav recieves it's much deserved boost. This will again indirectly boost Britain. I can understand your frustration.

Gameranger: _NiGhThAwK_
Angel Walker
Skirmisher
(id: Just a player)
posted 07-08-07 08:04 PM EDT (US)     9 / 38       
Nah, Longbowmen do just fine against Skirmishers. Unlike Grenadiers, once they started shooting they can't miss it. As long as they're Veteran as well, they should beat the same number of Skirmishers rather easily.

The problem is with Dutch infantry boost cards, which togheter with super Halberdiers ruled the latest patch. The super Halberdiers were nerfed somehow, but the boost cards are still there.
Banks need less HP, they just can't be brought down!
Agreed.

ESO - Walker

>> Napoleonic Era --> Visit their Homepage!
"Holy *****" > Thunder (Ensemble Studios)

Retired from AoE3. But I do play AoK HD in Steam now and then.
AceOfKings
Skirmisher
posted 07-08-07 08:24 PM EDT (US)     10 / 38       
Cheers to smashnbash! He finally learned the civ ladder system!

ESO= AceOfKings
Current: AOE3 TAD
KenjiCXT
Skirmisher
posted 07-08-07 08:55 PM EDT (US)     11 / 38       
Brtnboarder495: Rumor says that Hussars (,Cossacks, Axe Riders and Uhlans) are getting a boost in the next patch.

Source would be ES_Vega, and the thread "ES patch 1.04 comments from AS".
ultimitsu
Skirmisher
posted 07-08-07 10:41 PM EDT (US)     12 / 38       
banks are fine, 4k HP for a 700 res building is really not bad.

if you rush with 8 grenadiers at 6:30, he will be completely caught off guard, with the grenadier card, it takes 5 throws to kill a bank.
Eicho
Skirmisher
posted 07-08-07 10:42 PM EDT (US)     13 / 38       
smashbash

i have played Dutch a lot, and i can say.
LongBows just wipe the floor woth Skrims and Ruytiers
its not that a skrim can get into 22 range, go 2 range near, shoot, and go out of 22 BEFORE Longbows can shoot.
Ruytiers.. well LB's rape them.

If he FF u have to BOOM.
i have played with you, and you dont boom fast.
when u notice he is FFing, (most of time)
u keep constant vill production from TC, make 20 Manors, and make Market Techs, then you FF yourself and get Lonbows for dealing with Skrim and Ruytiers, 2-3 Culvs for his Falconets, and some Muskter for his Halberdiers if he makes them.
and if he found some strong merc cav, then u have dragoons.

But i do agree with Bank HP nerf.
maybe a 10%-15% HP nerf.

And, you eco is much btter than him.
you just have to BOOM.
market techs, villies from 3 TC's and 20 Houses, that way your superior eco will kill his.
SmashNBash
Skirmisher
posted 07-09-07 09:22 AM EDT (US)     14 / 38       
lol, if you speak of yesterday, i did terrible because i gren rushed you. if that fails, I'm screwed. admittedly if i had attacked your TC before taking down that TP i would have had the upper hand... oh well at least it wasn't rated

if i really want to boom, I'll have all 99 villies at around 15-19 minutes. but i haven't done that in some time...

but still, the banks just don't deserve so much HP.

Lolocausts are fun.
James Lock
Skirmisher
posted 07-09-07 09:49 AM EDT (US)     15 / 38       
I don't think Britain are getting a direct boost. Some civs are getting nerfed and hussars are getting boosted, which is great for Britain, with all 3 cavalry upgrade cards that are not limited to any particular type of cavalry, unlike the French German and Spanish ones.

Thanks to all those that signed the petition to get me unbanned here.
And special thanks to smashnbash for making it.
Widget
Skirmisher
posted 07-09-07 10:35 AM EDT (US)     16 / 38       
Oh it's Smashnbash, will this guy ever stop complaining after he loses a game.

~#~#~ ESO: bacon~#~#~

Favorite Civs: China, Germans, Aztec

PR Rank: Master Sergeant.
SmashNBash
Skirmisher
posted 07-09-07 10:38 AM EDT (US)     17 / 38       
everyone else seems to think I'm right about a thing or two. besides i didn't just lose a game, I'm just stating the problem.

i play almost exclusively brits, and seeing as they are at rock bottom, my complaining is somewhat justified.

Lolocausts are fun.
AI Guy
Skirmisher
posted 07-09-07 03:06 PM EDT (US)     18 / 38       
My Brits vs Eicho's Dutch is a relatively even match. He's even 4 pr above me.

___________
[aizone.uni.cc] - Never gonna get updated in your life
LordKivlov
Royal Guard
posted 07-09-07 03:36 PM EDT (US)     19 / 38       
Brits aren't at rock bottom... Infact I broke out of team games and started to play 1v1 with them with some great success.

Proud Citizen of Sovietcanuckistan
Brtnboarder495
Skirmisher
posted 07-09-07 03:38 PM EDT (US)     20 / 38       
A) Complaining is never justified
B) Britain is difficult to play, but not a "rock bottom" civ
C) Britain will be indirectly boosted in 1.04, and many strong civs nerfed

Gameranger: _NiGhThAwK_
Eicho
Skirmisher
posted 07-09-07 07:49 PM EDT (US)     21 / 38       
Brtn, strong civs wotn be nerfed, maybe some small nerfs to top civs, and a good nerf to Iro, all other civs will go up to Dutch/Spain level (in theory)
ultimitsu
Skirmisher
posted 07-09-07 09:47 PM EDT (US)     22 / 38       
with all 3 cavalry upgrade cards that are not limited to any particular type of cavalry, unlike the French German and Spanish ones.
actually, it is the other way around...
play almost exclusively brits, and seeing as they are at rock bottom, my complaining is somewhat justified.
they arent rock bottom, that would be German and Russian.

and why arent you using your BIOR?

[This message has been edited by ultimitsu (edited 07-09-2007 @ 09:51 PM).]

Ender_Ward
Skirmisher
posted 07-09-07 11:56 PM EDT (US)     23 / 38       
Longbows beat Skirmishers. Always have. Indeed, you have one of the best anti-Dutch combos in Longbows, Muskets (or Pikes, depending on whether the enemy uses Hussars or Halberds) and Culverins.

And harass Dutch early with Longbows (slow down your boom a tiny bit and get 10 of them out ASAP). They make life a living hell for a Dutch player that still needs hunts, wood and gold from a mine at this point. Make sure you keep 5+ Pikes nearby too, some Dutch players (like me, when I played 'em) can hit the Longbow raiders with 4-5 Hussars.

Finally, despite Brits being a fairly mediocre civ overall, when it comes to fighting Dutch, they do better than most.
and why arent you using your BIOR?
*snicker*

"One wants to be loved, failing that admired, failing that feared, failing that hated and despised. One wants to instill in other people some form of emotion. The soul shudders before emptiness and wants contact, no matter the cost."
SmashNBash
Skirmisher
posted 07-10-07 08:23 AM EDT (US)     24 / 38       
to great surprise yesterday i found i beat a dutch guy with a gren rush! i believed he was going for the 4 bank FF. oh one question too, what cards give away said FF?

anyway he raided with hussars which a few muskets made short work of. really, grens work very well against dutch, seeing as its either hussars or skirms for them (well most of the time)

i ended up finding out he was booming like mad, and my gren rush had really screwed it up.

Lolocausts are fun.
AI Guy
Skirmisher
posted 07-10-07 06:18 PM EDT (US)     25 / 38       
really, grens work very well against dutch, seeing as its either hussars or skirms for them
Those both counter grens...
In fact, I think heavy inf is the only thing that doesn't? No wait...grens own falcs when they're in range...
Gren boost plz.

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[aizone.uni.cc] - Never gonna get updated in your life
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