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Age of Empires III Heaven » Forums » General Discussions » Japanese Rush
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Topic Subject:Japanese Rush
ManningAfricanus
Skirmisher
posted 10-04-07 09:26 AM EDT (US)         
What do you guys think about the Japanese rush so far? Been experimenting with not sending an age I card, then aging with the 400 XP, immediately you can send 3 cards when you get to age II. With these you can then send any of 4 Japanese military unit cards, some of them twice (fourth one being a merc card for 500 gold).

Only problem seems to be Honshu is a decently big map, have been building a castle near the enemy base and having the shipments go there, but not sure if this is the answer. Of course you're sacrificing economy but I wondering if cheap market techs and the ability of houses to generate resources can help with this.

Edit: Actually just noticed there is a Daiymo (spelling?) shipment in age 2, ship this card first, send him up to the front, have him train units and accept shipments. You could have a large army ready to fight pretty damn fast without the need to waste villies on wood for a forward castle or barracks. Of course havent tried this since I dont have all the cards needed yet, just speculating

[This message has been edited by ManningAfricanus (edited 10-04-2007 @ 09:36 AM).]

AuthorReplies:
JimXIX
Kings Guard
posted 10-04-07 10:58 AM EDT (US)     1 / 16       
The question is - Is it worth rushing as Japan? They have a decent economy and you may be able to outboom the opponent so itm ay be better to boom at home, perhaps try to harass them while you boom...?

You'll remember that four (!) hour game against that crazy Russian that wouldn't give up, not realizing he was playing someone who in real life actually is a crazy Russian, that won't give up either. - Ender_Ward
Out Reach
Skirmisher
(id: newreach268)
posted 10-04-07 12:28 PM EDT (US)     2 / 16       
Japan can easily do a great rush, not only being able to age up fast but get a bonus aswell add in isolationism, and your on to a winner.

Out Reach
The guy who writes the erotic fan fiction in Yeebaagoon's signature
LordPatrick18
Skirmisher
posted 10-04-07 12:46 PM EDT (US)     3 / 16       
I agree with Jim in that they are good boomers, and the Daimyo is great for harrassing, as it can train more raiders when they are killed.

I've also been scatterring my shrines, usually quite forward, so I have LOS all across the map, which means I have forwarning of any rush coming.

Congratulations Serge - Winner of the FFA Spring Series 2008
Medio
Skirmisher
(id: Mediolanus)
posted 10-04-07 01:16 PM EDT (US)     4 / 16       
And you'll loose your houses as soon as the opponent tries anything aggressive.
Malavir
Skirmisher
posted 10-04-07 01:30 PM EDT (US)     5 / 16       
The shrines are also good as the other team can't kill the hunts on them.
So, if you can build them with your monks at their second hunt, you have a pretty good chance of winning.

"You may also need a few anus guns for someone like France"
-Cheese68
Eicho
Skirmisher
posted 10-04-07 01:45 PM EDT (US)     6 / 16       
I am afraid of that Malavir, it may turn a little lame
LordPatrick18
Skirmisher
posted 10-04-07 02:57 PM EDT (US)     7 / 16       
Yumi archers and godo micro though, Medio, will mean he'll take some time to advance through them, at which point you can easily buidl more, or go Fortress. As long as he's not in your base, you have more choices.

Congratulations Serge - Winner of the FFA Spring Series 2008
As_Saffah
Scenario Reviewer
posted 10-04-07 03:02 PM EDT (US)     8 / 16       
Japanese are beginning to sound a lot like some other lame civ we know...

Can rush and boom in the same game ... check
messing with forward hunts...check
Military hero with large attack and aura...check


Now all they need is a firepit.

Crunkatog on ESO
Bart331 balance suggestion: aztec: remove civ
Voltiguer: Ender, Sioux in 1.04 will be a top civ, no matter how many layers of Sioux goggles you put on
schildpad on Elephants: ...their mansabdar unit sucks so hard it looks like a black hole
Crunkatog on Steam.
Ender_Ward
Skirmisher
posted 10-04-07 03:32 PM EDT (US)     9 / 16       
Japanese rushes are going to get owned by Crossbow/Pike or Skirmisher/Pike.

Samurai are basically more expensive Dopples that have slightly better hand attack but less splash area. They're still just as slow though (4.5). Will get hit and run to death.

Yumi Archers are going to get creamed by Crossbows. Set up time and 3.0 rate of fire is horrible. Try them again, see how badly they do.

Naginata aren't Lancers (standard damage vs HI) and won't be able to handle Pikes head on.

The only chance for Japanese to rush is with Naginata + Yashigaru Muskets. Lots and lots of the Muskets, since they're the only (really) good unit Japanese have in Colonial.
Not gonna be a problem for the Chinese though (see Chu Ko Nu stats).


P.S.
And they won't be messing with forward hunts. Those "shrines" are basically houses and they're not even close to indestructible. It would be like forward building Banks. A really really bad idea.

"One wants to be loved, failing that admired, failing that feared, failing that hated and despised. One wants to instill in other people some form of emotion. The soul shudders before emptiness and wants contact, no matter the cost."

[This message has been edited by Ender_Ward (edited 10-04-2007 @ 03:33 PM).]

ManningAfricanus
Skirmisher
posted 10-04-07 03:38 PM EDT (US)     10 / 16       
Well Saffah I hope you're wrong, hard to tell until we really get multiplayer going. But their boom seems to destroy any other civs boom by far with their twice sendable cards and shrines. Not only do they have the 4 villie card, but in age I they have a 3 fishing boat card making their lack of 3 villie card moot.

Should be interesting to see how artillery works out. I don't think flaming arrow gets a multiplier against other arty. Although those bow riders (forgot the name) do 80 damage to arty pieces.

Their rush could be strong but without a crossbow/skirmisher unit that you can hit and run with I could see most civs being able to fend off a rush. Fending off the boom is another thing....

Edit: I think Ender nailed it, however, I can see Japan being a strong raiding civ with the abiliity of a daimyo to produce cavalry in the field. Instead of having to decide between barracks or stable, ship a daimyo, raid and get treasures with him and you've got a damn good start.

[This message has been edited by ManningAfricanus (edited 10-04-2007 @ 03:42 PM).]

As_Saffah
Scenario Reviewer
posted 10-04-07 03:54 PM EDT (US)     11 / 16       
I am being facetious.

After playing with them for a few mins this morning, I've come to the conclusion that they seem very flexible but not OP really early in the game. Their early eco is like Dutch but slightly more raidable and fragile, they have enormous income potential in lategame, they have a well-rounded army with tons of options, and aging up super fast with multiple vills is going to be strategically valuable.

Crunkatog on ESO
Bart331 balance suggestion: aztec: remove civ
Voltiguer: Ender, Sioux in 1.04 will be a top civ, no matter how many layers of Sioux goggles you put on
schildpad on Elephants: ...their mansabdar unit sucks so hard it looks like a black hole
Crunkatog on Steam.
Krazy_Karl
Skirmisher
posted 10-04-07 03:59 PM EDT (US)     12 / 16       
I'm disappointed. Japan is far too unique and has far too many bonuses:

- Shrines
- Wonders
- Pseudo-magic abilities
- HC cards twice
- Consulate
- Daimyo
- Better market upgrades

The average civ has 2 or 3. The Japanese have far too many, and have no disadvantages for them.

im in ur base

steelin ur crates
Eicho
Skirmisher
posted 10-04-07 03:59 PM EDT (US)     13 / 16       
Ender, i agree with most of you said.
But forward shrined could be a very good idea (if you dont immediatly need the wood for something else).
you can build them with both explorers, they are relativly cheap, and will force the enemy to attack them for him to be able to hunt the hunts that where there.

And at the time he attacka your shrine, you can go with your Naginata + Ashigaru army and attack him

I agree that Yumi are not good, and they are only Japan Skrim/Xbow unit, i think they should have 1.5 ROF.

EDIT:
Krazy Karl, using your criteria, i'll list Aztec bonuses:

  • Some weird guys dances around a fire and you get global abilities such as more XP or your units fight better, the dancers + fire can also return WarChief from dead and it can create some weird guys that have skeleton clothes.

  • WarChief is so friendly that even animals wants to be in his side.

  • They can produce all AgeII units from 1 building, and all AgeIII units from other buildings (except the firepit unit)

  • Their military buildings also can attack back!

  • With one card the WarChief has some type of mutation, and then if you feed him with 225 food he can train Jaguars! (and he is so OP he doesn't need a female!)

  • They can get Age III or IV units in age II via BBtechs..

    [This message has been edited by Eicho (edited 10-04-2007 @ 04:08 PM).]

  • schildpad
    Skirmisher
    posted 10-04-07 04:14 PM EDT (US)     14 / 16       
    I'm disappointed. Japan is far too unique and has far too many bonuses:
    *searches a bridge. A very high bridge to jump from.

    Cant you think of anything else to complain about?


    Anyone knows how fast shrines gather? I couldnt find it. (animals gather between 0.07 and 0.14 resources/sec at shrines)

    "such a kind fellow!" ~ ķįŋğ_Ćħŗĩ_ĬĬ

    Furby killer should be crowned leader of AOE forum ~ [SW_GD]Teutonic

    Ender_Ward
    Skirmisher
    posted 10-04-07 04:20 PM EDT (US)     15 / 16       
    When I built a shrine by itself in 1st, no animals and no wonder upgrades, it gathered at 0.07 resources per second. With the shrine wonder to Colonial it became 0.12.

    Even if you put it to wood, it would take 4 Shrines to equal a single unupgraded villager.

    "One wants to be loved, failing that admired, failing that feared, failing that hated and despised. One wants to instill in other people some form of emotion. The soul shudders before emptiness and wants contact, no matter the cost."
    schildpad
    Skirmisher
    posted 10-04-07 04:22 PM EDT (US)     16 / 16       
    That means you really need to put them near animals. Otherwise they are pointless.

    "such a kind fellow!" ~ ķįŋğ_Ćħŗĩ_ĬĬ

    Furby killer should be crowned leader of AOE forum ~ [SW_GD]Teutonic

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