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Age of Empires III Heaven » Forums » General Discussions » China overall?
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Topic Subject:China overall?
pwk11
Skirmisher
posted 12-03-07 01:30 PM EDT (US)         
I know many people hate china now due to the rushing.Ive done some rushing{I should say attacking at about 8-9 minutes,not exactly a rush,it has proven stronger.} with them and found it strong but very beatable as well. And of course I am left weakeneed after the rush fails,and so behind.So I dont have a solid idea on how they are in non-rush{not treaty}"normal" games. Although if I am not too far behind and get to fort they seem pretty good in fortress.
Ive been reading opinions on bits and pieces about them, but bias aside,what do you think of china as a civ as "whole"? Early,mid,and late game included? Strong and weak points?

[This message has been edited by pwk11 (edited 12-03-2007 @ 01:54 PM).]

AuthorReplies:
AI Guy
Skirmisher
posted 12-03-07 04:27 PM EDT (US)     1 / 15       
Early early game - Weak. If you rush em hard, they die hard. This is due to the fact that they have to have cav or pikes in with li.

Late early game - Strong. Once the armies are available en masse, they get the "canoe effect."

Early midgame - Strong. By this time you should be in fortress, where disciples get ridiculously OP and you get those awesome hand mortars. The territorial army ain't bad, either.

------- Normal 1v1 length ends here -------

Late midgame - Average. Here they start fading, as the opponents should be making as many units as you now as you now get stopped by the pop-ineffectiveness of your units, even with 20 extra pop.

------- Normal 2v2 length ends here -------

Lategame - Average. They are saved from pop ineffectiveness by old hand reforms and the 220 pop bonus pays off. No-pop disciples aren't anything to laugh at, especially when you get a large number of them and you can just wipe any medium-sized army with minimal losses or even gains. Hand mortars can cause crazy damage to buildings and artillery and can even hold their own vs normal units, though not well. They also have the option of having 119 villagers. Even with all this, they are only average. These bonuses only save them form being horrible lategame.

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Sporting_Lisbon
Skirmisher
posted 12-03-07 04:55 PM EDT (US)     2 / 15       
early early game - YOU are rushed hard, and they have li with pike/cav and OP disciples It is by no means weak.

In case he doesnt rush and you actually try to rush him hard you face the disciples from wonder age up. Check out how easily a skilled china player owns your rush.

FFA Fun Series - Spring/Summer 07 winner

[This message has been edited by Sporting_Lisbon (edited 12-03-2007 @ 04:57 PM).]

CunniJA
Skirmisher
posted 12-03-07 05:37 PM EDT (US)     3 / 15       
Good assesment there AI Guy, I agree completely. What you said are the reasons why China is a Fast Fortress civilization (which a lot of people still don't get, I have no idea why.)

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"Brilliant cunni simply brilliant"
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Brtnboarder495
Skirmisher
posted 12-03-07 08:30 PM EDT (US)     4 / 15       
I'm sorry, but are you serious? Early game sucking? They have great shipments and massability, and can be raiding you with over 8 cav pretty early on. Once the 3 military shipments are drained, you can ship 700 wood and easily put up another barracks and a few villages and almost always pump military from both barracks constantly.

Late game, if anything, is where they are weak. Or weakest is a better term, seeing as they are all around strong at the moment.

Gameranger: _NiGhThAwK_
Shadow Shade
Skirmisher
posted 12-03-07 09:07 PM EDT (US)     5 / 15       
China is simply a FF civ, cheap unit upgrades, great shipments, hand mortars, iron troop, disciples for defending the rush that are cheap and don't much effect age up then 12 when you reach fortress with that wonder. Anybody who is still rushing with them obviously hasn't tried a FF. China's weakness however is cavalry, they have plenty of units that can own infantry but their anti cav isn't that impressive, this is due to the units being too weak. However China's strengths are good enough that they make up for the weakness.
Tezza_01
Skirmisher
posted 12-04-07 04:12 AM EDT (US)     6 / 15       
weak anti cav units WTF!?

the pikes arent to be laughed at once u get old han reforms (+100% to all actions and hp for chu ko nas and pikemen) but sadly increase the banner armies cost that use 1 or more of those units by 50% (not bad when u allied with germans -30% to banner army costs).

Then you have the Changdao swordsmen. they are rather good when massed with the skirms because they cover each others weakness (like the old han except Swordsmen dont have as much seige damage).

Then you have the Rather crap keshik unless it is massed with the pikemen and you get a few changdao swords and skirms to back them up (ok if you find the right banner army balance still trying it out).

so you best anti Cavalry armies are old han (pikes do extra damage to all cav and chu ko nas do x1.5 against light cavalry), Teritorial army (bout same as old han but higher base attack and less multipliers i think) and the army (cant remember name will update with the name) that consists of Old Han pikes and keshiks (ranged cav like 10base attack with x3 multiplier vs cav).

how can china be bad vs cav when u have these upgrades aswell. Old Han Reforms +100% to pikemen and chu ko nas attack and hp, Western reforms +8% to all units attack and hp... dammit cant remember any more will update soon when I get back off AOE3 Y pack.

Why Fight a losing battle? Retreat make some stealthy units put in enemy town and ambush when enemy army in your town.
Eicho
Skirmisher
posted 12-04-07 11:17 AM EDT (US)     7 / 15       
Tezza, you obiusly haven't played China, or havent paid attention while playing them.

Old Han Reforms and the card with +8% HP and Attack are Age IV cards.
Their Anti-Cav is crap, Quiang Pikes cost as much as normal Pikes, but have crap attack vs Cavalary.
Changdao or Keshiks dont have too god attack vs Cavaary either.
Try facing 80% HeavyCav 20% LI* as China, it's almost impossible to win. (ok, maybe if you have OP micro you can win, but i doubt it)

Germans dont give -30% Banner Army cost, that would be OP, they give -30 Banner Army cost.
Brtnboarder495
Skirmisher
posted 12-04-07 05:03 PM EDT (US)     8 / 15       
No, China does have a weakness to cav for sure. That's agreeable, but in the grand scheme of things, where many civs don't have a strong heavy cav unit, it's hardly an issue. They also have options for upgrades and, don't forget that they have such a strong fortress and decent colonial there is no guarantee that you'll last that long.

Gameranger: _NiGhThAwK_
CunniJA
Skirmisher
posted 12-04-07 05:56 PM EDT (US)     9 / 15       
??? Last time I checked Hussars are a pretty strong heavy cavalry unit.

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General_America
Skirmisher
posted 12-04-07 08:06 PM EDT (US)     10 / 15       
Um... sorry to change subject, but what is the "canoe effect"??
pwk11
Skirmisher
posted 12-04-07 08:12 PM EDT (US)     11 / 15       
The meteor hammer fully upgraded is pretty strong I thought?
As_Saffah
Scenario Reviewer
posted 12-05-07 00:16 AM EDT (US)     12 / 15       
Um... sorry to change subject, but what is the "canoe effect"??
Where your intrinsically better and more expensive European units are outnumbered by a swarm of cheap, fast cannon fodder dorks and annihilated by them, contrary to historical realism. E.g. native players spam canoes, which melt everything in their path like butter on a griddle. The numerical superiority is usually not enough to explain the result.

IMO disciples are very much in this category.

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AI Guy
Skirmisher
posted 12-05-07 05:24 PM EDT (US)     13 / 15       
I'm sorry, but are you serious? Early game sucking?
Early early game. Like, 0:00 - 6:00 or slightly above. In my experience, my army pretty much sucks during that period. It's not too horrible, though, which is why it's "weak" and not "sucks."

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[aizone.uni.cc] - Never gonna get updated in your life
Cancer of the Head
Skirmisher
(id: say1988)
posted 12-05-07 06:38 PM EDT (US)     14 / 15       
??? Last time I checked Hussars are a pretty strong heavy cavalry unit.
By strong heavy cav, I believe he means Cuir type units. Hussars are pretty much baseline cav, in any case.
China is still weak against hussars, though.
Brtnboarder495
Skirmisher
posted 12-05-07 10:02 PM EDT (US)     15 / 15       
Early early game. Like, 0:00 - 6:00 or slightly above. In my experience, my army pretty much sucks during that period. It's not too horrible, though, which is why it's "weak" and not "sucks."
I still can't agree. You can choose to go with two villages and delay your age up time, or be in age2 by the same time or earlier than any other asian civ. You will always be a little behind a native or euro civ in most cases, but in those games just go up with one villager short, or play a little differently. You shouldn't have issues with ultra fast rushes, because you can use TC fire, 8 chus, and asian MM (forget their real names), while building a barracks behind TC or hidden away.

Gameranger: _NiGhThAwK_

[This message has been edited by Brtnboarder495 (edited 12-05-2007 @ 10:03 PM).]

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