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Age of Empires III Heaven » Forums » General Discussions » TAD Stats
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Topic Subject:TAD Stats
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Garlef
Skirmisher
posted 02-06-08 00:49 AM EDT (US)         
Thanks must go to ESO Tools for gathering the raw data that makes the following charts possible.

Note:
All data is for Supremacy 1v1 with Mirror games excluded and Game length > 200 seconds

GO = PR Ranks Brigadier through Marshal
FGO = PR Ranks Major through Colonel
CGO = PR Ranks 2nd Lieutenant through Captain
NCO = PR Ranks Lance Corporal through Master Sergeant

(Equal Rank -> means that both players had the same PR Rank, example: Captain vs Captain, Brigadier v Brigadier)

How to read the Civ vs. Civ Table:
The Civ along the left edge is the winning civ.. the columns are the civs that lost.
Example: For Dutch vs Ports, Dutch won 23 and Ports won 16 games.

GO v GO 1v1 Supremacy Patch 1.00 (Mirror excluded, Equal Rank)
Civ       Games   Wins   Win%    Usage%
Russian 97 64 65.98% 5.18%
Chinese 254 158 62.20% 13.57%
Sioux 127 79 62.20% 6.78%
Aztec 94 56 59.57% 5.02%
Dutch 188 102 54.26% 10.04%
Spanish 106 57 53.77% 5.66%
Iroquois 38 19 50.00% 2.03%
Ottoman 134 66 49.25% 7.16%
German 50 24 48.00% 2.67%
Indian 263 120 45.63% 14.05%
Portuguese 69 27 39.13% 3.69%
British 79 30 37.97% 4.22%
Japanese 277 100 36.10% 14.80%
French 96 34 35.42% 5.13%
Total 1872 936
FGO v FGO 1v1 Supremacy Patch 1.00 (Mirror excluded, Equal Rank)
Civ       Games   Wins   Win%    Usage%
Chinese 2985 1873 62.75% 16.80%
Russian 700 383 54.71% 3.94%
Aztec 872 474 54.36% 4.91%
Sioux 677 365 53.91% 3.81%
Ottoman 1626 864 53.14% 9.15%
German 783 403 51.47% 4.41%
Dutch 1580 789 49.94% 8.89%
Indian 2264 1097 48.45% 12.74%
Spanish 824 395 47.94% 4.64%
Iroquois 491 233 47.45% 2.76%
British 953 421 44.18% 5.36%
Portuguese 458 188 41.05% 2.58%
Japanese 2596 1026 39.52% 14.61%
French 955 371 38.85% 5.38%
Total 17764 8882
CGO v CGO 1v1 Supremacy Patch 1.00 (Mirror excluded, Equal Rank)
Civ       Games   Wins   Win%    Usage%
Chinese 6984 4441 63.59% 18.02%
Ottoman 2693 1540 57.19% 6.95%
Aztec 1540 879 57.08% 3.97%
Sioux 1622 904 55.73% 4.18%
Russian 1963 1089 55.48% 5.06%
German 1365 703 51.50% 3.52%
Dutch 3486 1713 49.14% 8.99%
Iroquois 803 387 48.19% 2.07%
Indian 4036 1906 47.22% 10.41%
Spanish 1625 731 44.98% 4.19%
British 2629 1145 43.55% 6.78%
French 2708 1139 42.06% 6.99%
Japanese 6589 2530 38.40% 17.00%
Portuguese 723 276 38.17% 1.87%
Total 38766 19383
FGO v FGO 1v1 Supremacy Patch 1.00 (Mirror excluded, Equal Rank)
     Az   Br   Ch   Du   Fr   Ge   In   Iro  Ja   Ot   Po   Ru   Si   Sp   Wins
Az -- 24 55 49 25 25 52 26 56 57 16 21 45 23 474
Br 21 -- 60 34 29 16 64 10 84 26 19 15 16 27 421
Chi 74 103 -- 231 125 68 310 58 475 170 64 65 41 89 1873
Du 50 43 90 -- 58 38 109 29 145 75 23 38 39 52 789
Fr 18 20 53 42 -- 25 49 5 52 37 13 22 14 21 371
Ge 13 35 54 45 34 -- 56 8 61 44 13 14 11 15 403
In 48 72 225 86 77 41 -- 27 281 98 27 38 40 37 1097
Ir 17 18 36 25 13 11 37 -- 26 9 6 7 24 4 233
Ja 40 61 212 79 65 57 233 22 -- 105 38 26 33 55 1026
Ot 43 56 126 76 69 49 108 27 157 -- 25 42 26 60 864
Po 10 15 24 16 13 2 18 7 33 27 -- 9 3 11 188
Ru 20 37 53 29 29 8 46 7 79 43 8 -- 6 18 383
Si 34 23 65 34 21 22 39 24 38 33 6 9 -- 17 365
Sp 10 25 59 45 26 18 46 8 83 38 12 11 14 -- 395
Loss 398 532 1112 791 584 380 1167 258 1570 762 270 317 312 429 8882
The following tables are when both players are of the same Rank level (GO, FGO, or CGO)
GO v GO 1v1 Supremacy Patch 1.00 (Mirror excluded)
Civ       Games   Wins   Win%    Usage%
Iroquois 148 92 62.16% 3.55%
Chinese 562 346 61.57% 13.48%
Russian 182 102 56.04% 4.36%
Sioux 248 136 54.84% 5.95%
Dutch 427 234 54.80% 10.24%
Spanish 190 101 53.16% 4.56%
Aztec 179 92 51.40% 4.29%
British 232 115 49.57% 5.56%
Portuguese 135 66 48.89% 3.24%
Ottoman 284 138 48.59% 6.81%
Indian 561 261 46.52% 13.45%
German 146 60 41.10% 3.50%
Japanese 654 256 39.14% 15.68%
French 222 86 38.74% 5.32%
Total 4170 2085
FGO v FGO 1v1 Supremacy Patch 1.00 (Mirror excluded)
Civ       Games   Wins   Win%    Usage%
Chinese 7073 4280 60.51% 16.26%
Russian 1650 927 56.18% 3.79%
Aztec 2198 1206 54.87% 5.05%
Ottoman 4045 2217 54.81% 9.30%
Sioux 1738 928 53.39% 4.00%
German 1922 991 51.56% 4.42%
Dutch 3982 2009 50.45% 9.15%
Spanish 2096 1005 47.95% 4.82%
Indian 5435 2590 47.65% 12.49%
Iroquois 1240 571 46.05% 2.85%
Portuguese 1283 570 44.43% 2.95%
British 2188 930 42.50% 5.03%
Japanese 6300 2617 41.54% 14.48%
French 2348 908 38.67% 5.40%
Total 43498 21749
CGO v CGO 1v1 Supremacy Patch 1.00 (Mirror excluded)
Civ       Games   Wins   Win%    Usage%
Chinese 16035 9739 60.74% 17.82%
Sioux 3786 2120 56.00% 4.21%
Ottoman 6402 3518 54.95% 7.11%
Russian 4534 2429 53.57% 5.04%
Aztec 3578 1913 53.47% 3.98%
German 3099 1610 51.95% 3.44%
Dutch 8151 4065 49.87% 9.06%
Spanish 3835 1889 49.26% 4.26%
Iroquois 1884 925 49.10% 2.09%
Indian 9537 4576 47.98% 10.60%
British 5942 2666 44.87% 6.60%
French 6051 2586 42.74% 6.72%
Portuguese 1779 727 40.87% 1.98%
Japanese 15381 6234 40.53% 17.09%
Total 89994 44997

[This message has been edited by Garlef (edited 02-06-2008 @ 11:37 AM).]

AuthorReplies:
MightyFish
Skirmisher
posted 02-09-08 08:35 AM EDT (US)     26 / 52       
With all the noise these stats generate I am surprised that no one has realized why the French perform poorly but appear not to be UP. It's easy! It's a French conspiracy. They have been deliberately throwing games in order to get a boost.

I know I have been trying to do the same thing with Britain. When you have lost 8 in a row you begin to think that throwing games to get a boost is not such a bad idea.

LordPatrick18
Skirmisher
posted 02-09-08 02:39 PM EDT (US)     27 / 52       
Before you all start making judgements, it i simportant you look at the wider picture. Natives are still by far the most popular at the moment. The majority of people are using China/India/Japan. When you think about it in this way, it makes more sense:

Russia: They actually fair quite well versus China. Chinas lack of early siege/Cav means Seva lame works a tee. So Russia, when played properly, do well against China. Since China are popular atm, Russia go up on ladder.

Aztec: They are too broken IMO to be looked at properly. Any expert Aztec player on water map will win 80% of the time, if not more.

Dutch: Similar to Russia, only the other way around. China are the anti-Dutch. Hand Mortars put an end to Dutch 4 Bank Semi-FF. They are better than this ladder shows.

French: French find it hard against Japan and China - the two most popular civs atm. Japan, as Xbows aren't as good vs Heavy Inf. as their Native Equivalents. IMO all units should follow the Asian example of low attack, high Multipliers. And well China is just better than french at most things. I know, China are better at most civs at most things, but French are one of the, if not the most popular of the non-OP group (China, Dutch, Sioux, Spain). So when you have 2 popular civs, and one beats the most of the time, one is going to suffer, dispite it's overall balance.

Japanese: Same thing. Japan really struggles against China, which is the most popular civ, so struggles in the overall ladder.

Now Im not saying that these ladders are bad, i find them very helpful and interesting indeed, but it is not necessarily a good way to look at overall balance.

Congratulations Serge - Winner of the FFA Spring Series 2008
kilmaim
Skirmisher
posted 02-09-08 03:13 PM EDT (US)     28 / 52       
Do these stats truly show how balanced a game is...no. But one thing is for certain! The Brits are ALWAYS ON THE BOTTOM! This certainly say something about how balanced the Brits have been ever since these stats first came out - pre TAD etc. This can only mean that the British are lacking somewhere - that is of course - unless NO ONE except NaturePhoenix KNOWS HOW TO PLAY THEM!
Killa4life
Skirmisher
posted 02-09-08 06:28 PM EDT (US)     29 / 52       
This forum is helpless. It used to be nice and all, now its just noobcommunity.com #2.

Noobs of Empires III Heaven -_-

While we are at it, why not base balance on these stats? Nerf Russia, boost dutch and spain, nerf op aztecs. Right.

I refuse to argue with complete n00bs from now on seriously. I'm off to AS to argue with guys who have a brain, ty.

and "exc4libulz1022" sorry but you have no clue about this game whatsoever. I've shown this funny quote to several people alrdy (pr 40+ guys) and they all simply rofl'ed. People laughed at AS, too. Yeah, xbows really need an overall boost. Lmao. And please boost France but not Germany because ger>france ahaha.

okay, I know this appears as a very arrogant post but honestly Idc. I'm done arguing with guys 20 PRs below me (im pr 45 btw) good night
ultimitsu
Skirmisher
posted 02-09-08 08:01 PM EDT (US)     30 / 52       
overall in TAD and TWC, xbow and skrimishers have became quite weak, mostly due to all new LI are better (gurka, ckn, arq, yumi), and they get countered harder by TAD cav than aoe3cav counters TAD LI, yet overall aoe3 civ's anti cav arent really better than TAD anti-cav.

to get what I mean, try equal res skirm + cuir + dragoon against gurka, Mahout and howdah.

[This message has been edited by ultimitsu (edited 02-09-2008 @ 08:04 PM).]

Ekanta
Skirmisher
posted 02-09-08 08:14 PM EDT (US)     31 / 52       
About japanese: Naginatas cost more in villager seconds than hussars (higher gold cost which gather slower). Ok they are better vs archer/skirm but worse vs everything else (since lower base attack). So it evens out, and yet they are more expensive. Japs have a really hard time vs russian strelet rush (strelets costing mainly food = easy to mass). I would give japs a 3 nagainata shipment in colo instead of those retarded 3 samurais. After all, it would balance them vs the civs they have the hardest time against like russia (while at perhaps lower gold cost and increase food cost). Ok we dont want an OP civ, but we dont want a civ owning another either.
And while at it 5 yumi shipment equals a total of 525 resources... perhaps the worst shipment in the game? 6 yumi would be 630 resources. Im seriously tired of facing strelet rushes as japs (lol).
ultimitsu
Skirmisher
posted 02-09-08 09:08 PM EDT (US)     32 / 52       
About japanese: Naginatas cost more in villager seconds than hussars (higher gold cost which gather slower). Ok they are better vs archer/skirm but worse vs everything else (since lower base attack). So it evens out, and yet they are more expensive.
i cant agree with this.

Nagi has 7% more ranged hp, while hussars have 7% more melee hp, so as far as HP goes they are even.

japan has overall a slight gold bonus compared to most civs, in that: 1, they get dutch ally for 0.8 gold trickle, 2, they get a bank, 3, shrine get gold at the same rate as everything else, makes it a good gold income, 4, rice paddy cost a lot less than plantation. so price wise, they are pretty much even.

in terms of actual damage, Nagis are way better, only 7% less against everything else but a whooping 30% more against LI, that is huge. late game, they benefit from more upgrades then euro cav, yesterday i one team game i lasted till imperial, got them up to 950 HP without native techs.

Japs have a really hard time vs russian strelet rush (strelets costing mainly food = easy to mass). I would give japs a 3 nagainata shipment in colo instead of those retarded 3 samurais. After all, it would balance them vs the civs they have the hardest time against like russia (while at perhaps lower gold cost and increase food cost). Ok we dont want an OP civ, but we dont want a civ owning another either.
tbh i havent played against russian 1v1 yet, but i cant see the problem, nagis kill strelets in 2 hit, even after boyar, it takes 54 hits froms trelets to kill 1 nagi, this is a bit like mahout vs skirms.

what you need to do is age with tori gate, build stable with the racksaw, ship 5 ashi asap, build 3~4 nagi at the time he gets 10 strelets + 5 cossack, with a bit of micro you should beat it no problem, next shipment is 5 more ashi if you didnt kill all cossacks, or 5 yumis if you did.

once you beat the initial wave, put down a barrack and make just enough yumis for muskts, raid him with nagis when he is not attacking. As japan you dont need to hunt outside, so cossack raiding isnt much of an issue.

as for the samurai shipment, i want it to change to 3 nagi as well, but i think ES feels that 3 nagis is too strong (japan has the strongest cav + infantry combo in age2). in some decks i use 3 samurai for siege, others i replace it with merc nagi pikeman card.
And while at it 5 yumi shipment equals a total of 525 resources... perhaps the worst shipment in the game? 6 yumi would be 630 resources.
yeah this one i have to agree, but at the same time, i think ES intentionally made japs' age2 shipments suck, hence the 600 res shipments.

[This message has been edited by ultimitsu (edited 02-09-2008 @ 09:11 PM).]

ultimitsu
Skirmisher
posted 02-10-08 00:08 AM EDT (US)     33 / 52       
actually i just had my first jap vs russian game, i did exactly what i said and it worked fine.

first battle was 4 nagi + 10 ashi VS 43 strelets, he lost most of them and retreated back to his outpost.

second battle was more nagis and more strelets,

third battle had 9 cosacks and some strelets i killed them all and took down his outpost, then raided his area and went fortress, put down a castle outside his base and built a barrack. made some ashi and upgraded Nagi, meanwhile he massed cossacks. needless to say 495 HP nagi and ashi owned them.

[This message has been edited by ultimitsu (edited 02-10-2008 @ 00:11 AM).]

CunniJA
Skirmisher
posted 02-10-08 00:27 AM EDT (US)     34 / 52       
Wow killa, you must really be a BONAFIDE BAD ASS! I mean... you are good at an INTERNET GAME! They must really fear you in tho hood.

A_S: "Cunni's pic wins thread otherwise failing due to being 5-7 years behind the times."
"Brilliant cunni simply brilliant"
C_MAG: "CunniJA's post is epic win."
exc4libulz1022
Skirmisher
posted 02-10-08 02:20 AM EDT (US)     35 / 52       
Can anyone even verify his claim? He definitely does not come across as an expert, if I had to guess his PR based on his manner I wouldn't have gone higher than master sergeant.

"he will have a hard getting banks up"
~rel4xed

"I accidently drop kicked someone once"
~george_uk

ultimitsu
Skirmisher
posted 02-10-08 05:31 AM EDT (US)     36 / 52       
i am pretty sure he is Voltigiur, AKA ESO Dopplesoldner.
Killa4life
Skirmisher
posted 02-10-08 06:46 AM EDT (US)     37 / 52       
Yes I am. Feel free to come to ESO (suggest a time) and ask me there >_<

and I guess for a pr 20 (or w/e you are) someone else who disagrees with him seems like sub pr 20 @@

and ulti, while xbows/skirs arent awesome vs tad civs in general indeed, they still certainly dont need an overall boost. they are very good units overall (vs euro civs etc).
If anything they need a rebalance so they actually counter HI but dont counter everything else from hussars to skirms.
Walker_5
Skirmisher
posted 02-10-08 07:19 AM EDT (US)     38 / 52       
Certain civs like Ports and Germans have needed an XBow boost accoding to many so called experts.
One civ that did not need an XBow boost according to the same experts was French.

I totally agree that France is strong, I just cant understand why the statistics shows it differently.

Doppel posted early that since Russia is considered weak, they often match only vs other weak civs, while French as a strong civ do battle vs any other civ.
Now this is also strange, since France has its best stats vs Ports, and thats a draw...

IF I get what I need I will set up an additional logging of ESO data, besides the logging "ESO Tools" does.
I hope that will spread some light on what we are looking at.

AgeSanctuary Staff member.
LordPatrick18
Skirmisher
posted 02-10-08 10:32 AM EDT (US)     39 / 52       
First off, Skirms and LI* do not need a boost. They are easily the most dominant unit in the game. Xbows don't need a boost. They just need to do better Vs HI and worse Vs Cav.

Then you need to make Hussar, and all Cav like Nagis, so that they kill LI* effectively.

Congratulations Serge - Winner of the FFA Spring Series 2008
madez007
Skirmisher
posted 02-10-08 11:35 AM EDT (US)     40 / 52       
i share the same opinion as some of the players at this forum, a small boost 2 xb woudent hurt that mutch and woud reay reay help fx port that sucks so poorly early game..
but french isent up at all hard 2 raid preaty good x-bow spam and realy good eko makes them a dicent civ.

and some one said british is up!!!!!! wtf british work disent vs. most civs even china and lb spam can change every battel

I am supriset 2 see india with a so high usage after all they are preaty weak trough the hole game, peopel must still think at em as a new and exiting civ, i did at first..
so boost port, german and india and nerf china, dutch and aztec on whater... Just my opinion
Garlef
Skirmisher
posted 02-10-08 12:46 PM EDT (US)     41 / 52       
IF I get what I need I will set up an additional logging of ESO data, besides the logging "ESO Tools" does.
I hope that will spread some light on what we are looking at.
What data are you looking for that ESO tools doesn't provide?
tyranitar
Skirmisher
posted 02-10-08 04:25 PM EDT (US)     42 / 52       
Kill4life is correct about everything
wreckoning
Skirmisher
posted 02-11-08 12:01 PM EDT (US)     43 / 52       
From these stats you could perhaps balance a civ according to how it fares in general against the most popular civs.

For instance FGO level Dutch are winning 49.9% of their games vs equally ranked players. But when you consider they won only 90/321 of their games vs China, but won 38/67 games vs Russia and 145/224 games vs Japan, it's clear that Dutch may be stronger than they at first appear, because of the sheer number of games played vs civs they are weak against and comparitively lower amount vs civs they own. The problem is that there isn't enough data (among equally ranked players at least) to realistically determine how things would look if each civ had an input of 7.7% into Dutch's rank.
kilmaim
Skirmisher
posted 02-11-08 02:25 PM EDT (US)     44 / 52       
i am pretty sure he is Voltigiur, AKA ESO Dopplesoldner.
Yes I am. Feel free to come to ESO (suggest a time) and ask me there >_<

and I guess for a pr 20 (or w/e you are) someone else who disagrees with him seems like sub pr 20 @@

and ulti, while xbows/skirs arent awesome vs tad civs in general indeed, they still certainly dont need an overall boost. they are very good units overall (vs euro civs etc).
If anything they need a rebalance so they actually counter HI but dont counter everything else from hussars to skirms.
So, Killa4life, if you are who you say you are (Doppelsöldner), then maybe you wouldn't mind recoring a British game or two for us, that is of course, since all of your recorded games for TAD (http://agesanctuary.com/index.php?portal=TAD&fview=9&act=aoe3_rec_game&cmd=04) are from these civs: Dutch, Iroquois, Spanish, Sioux and Otto.
madez007
Skirmisher
posted 02-11-08 02:41 PM EDT (US)     45 / 52       
yeah this one i have to agree, but at the same time, i think ES intentionally made japs' age2 shipments suck, hence the 600 res shipments.
................................................
lol dont you understand its becouse they have 2x shipments it woud be total unfair if they had ekual shipments having the civ 2 x 25 cards...


And while at it 5 yumi shipment equals a total of 525 resources... perhaps the worst shipment in the game? 6 yumi would be 630 resources.
................................................
(brit.)look at the 6 musk card total worth 600 res/700 res. card
(Japs.)5 yumi shipment 525res/600 res. shipment

[This message has been edited by madez007 (edited 02-11-2008 @ 02:44 PM).]

Killa4life
Skirmisher
posted 02-11-08 03:17 PM EDT (US)     46 / 52       
I dont get what your point is "kilmaim" but I actually already posted a rec of me using brits @ agesanctuary.com
vs a guy called fhoette1 (him using germans).

map: mongolia, I did boomy semi ff, he did ff for merc falc uhlan basically. I won.

(well im pretty sure I posted it there, go look for it)
Walker_5
Skirmisher
posted 02-11-08 03:20 PM EDT (US)     47 / 52       
@Garlef:

I'd like to do this(sort of):

select * from ESOStats where WinnerCiv = 'Russia' and LooserCiv = 'Britain' order by Looser

I wanna see WHO has lost to Russia using Britain.

Or

select * from ESOStats where Looser = 'DoppelSöldner' order by WinnerCiv

I simply wanna see which civs DoppelSöldner looses mostly to.

Edit:
Also, I wanna add ELO rating as well...

AgeSanctuary Staff member.

[This message has been edited by Walker_5 (edited 02-11-2008 @ 03:21 PM).]

Killa4life
Skirmisher
posted 02-11-08 03:22 PM EDT (US)     48 / 52       
lol I guess atm I lose mainly vs china which is no surprise playing china myself xD
Walker_5
Skirmisher
posted 02-11-08 04:21 PM EDT (US)     49 / 52       
I hope you understand that your name was only an example Doppel

AgeSanctuary Staff member.
Garlef
Skirmisher
posted 02-11-08 09:35 PM EDT (US)     50 / 52       
Walker_5,

I understand... Yeah, ESO Tools doesn't have player names included in the data.

I can give you info on Russia v British (w/out player names).

I would suggest you try to see if elorating.com can provide that..

Maybe Plexiq can see about making a query interface to their DBs that would allow for that type of stuff.
Killa4life
Skirmisher
posted 02-12-08 08:46 AM EDT (US)     51 / 52       
Well actually you can sort them by player name+civs he lost to as far as I know.

Select a player (e.g. myself)+enter his name, then press on "civ" (your opponent's one) and it will sort them alphabetical (aztecs, brits etc or the other way around).
Ofc its kind of a hassle to actually count all the games you lost vs this civ but its possible.

My bad, you can only sort the opponent's civ by name, not the losses or so. but still, if you put in a bit of effort it isnt hard to find how often i e.g. lost vs russia.

[This message has been edited by Killa4life (edited 02-12-2008 @ 08:50 AM).]

Killa4life
Skirmisher
posted 02-12-08 08:54 AM EDT (US)     52 / 52       
btw I think out of the number of games I played vs certain civs I lost the biggest % vs India - I think I lost almost 50% of my games vs them ><

In total China makes up for my most losses hands down, but 19 losses vs china are nothing when I played vs China like 50x or more.

PS: sorry for not editing
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