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Age of Empires III Heaven » Forums » General Discussions » Brits on the bottom...again!
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Topic Subject:Brits on the bottom...again!
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kilmaim
Skirmisher
posted 02-07-08 08:47 PM EDT (US)         
So, I'm dying to hear from everyone? What's everyone's take on this? Everyone still for the OP Brits or what? Early game...sucks! Middle game...sucks! Late game...sucks!

It says it all...
http://aoe3.heavengames.com/cgi-bin/forums/display.cgi?action=ct&f=1,35707,0,365

[This message has been edited by kilmaim (edited 02-07-2008 @ 08:49 PM).]

AuthorReplies:
exc4libulz1022
Skirmisher
posted 02-11-08 03:20 PM EDT (US)     51 / 67       
You know in Lord of the Rings, when Legolas occasionally fires two or three arrows at once? Like that, but more so
Lol, I can see it now. Legolas OP!@!1!@ ES get off your rear and nerf@!1!

"he will have a hard getting banks up"
~rel4xed

"I accidently drop kicked someone once"
~george_uk

Brtnboarder495
Skirmisher
posted 02-11-08 05:31 PM EDT (US)     52 / 67       
I just beat a Sioux & China player with Britain, purely by performing a simple musket rush. Sorry the games weren't recorded, but I have to say, that since I have not used Britain for quite some time now, that this is concrete evidence they are strong. Hell, consider me underrated if you want seeing as I mainly use Britain and India, but as far as I'm considered, they are balanced. The issue resides with OP civs or OP aspects, not Britain themselves, if any.

Gameranger: _NiGhThAwK_
AI Guy
Skirmisher
posted 02-11-08 11:14 PM EDT (US)     53 / 67       
The main problem I had as brits was that while longbows are good units, they suck as core units because cav actually kills them. So they kinda suck in colonial. In fortress they're decent, but you can't make the mistake of overspamming them because again, they're not core units.

When I played Brits, I barely had any problems with rushers, in fact I found Brits to have a slightly fast start. The thing is, you can't use longbows to defend - they suck until you get a good number out. You need muskets early game. Which wouldn't be a bad thing if people didn't use li so much.

One nice thing about defending rushes as brits is that if you successfully defend, you've pretty much won, since he's still in colonial and Brits are at their best in colonial. You can outboom him and outspam him.

I'm not gonna touch the FF since I don't like doing FFs.

___________
[aizone.uni.cc] - Never gonna get updated in your life
kilmaim
Skirmisher
posted 02-11-08 11:36 PM EDT (US)     54 / 67       
OK...here you go guys. Feel free to tear it apart.

http://aoe3.heavengames.com/downloads/showfile.php?fileid=1841

Me vs Lt Col (1A13). Not a bad game...I probably should have fished a little, but I really wasn't worried about it. Please feel free to share your thoughts on how to Improve my game...
SLEAK
Skirmisher
posted 02-12-08 00:57 AM EDT (US)     55 / 67       
posted 02-08-08 05:29 PM EDT (US) 19 / 54 kilmaim's Profile Edit This Message @Grottenmolch

Quoted from Grottenmolch:
Brits are fine the way the are!

The "problem" i see in playing brit is the difference to boom while being able to defend/attack against colonial and especially fortress armies because you stay for a long time in colonial usally. The booming requires more mikro and makro as it is needed compared to other civs!
You should be able to to harass or to turtle while booming. So skill is needed and the right decision how to spend the res is esential. Further microing your army for fending off an fortress army is vital too.

So players who start with brit or play them wrong get owned by a ff, an otto rush and so on. If they manage to survive this they dont have used the the booming advantage. Then they are screaming: "UP! they need a boost!! They suck in every part of the game!!"
And having stats of players who share the same problem is the ultimate proof for this: "Look its not me its the civ! Others are loosing often too! Now ES do something!"

If balancing is just about making a civ friendlier or easier to play, i recommend hardly to play with an other civ fitting more!

The problem with the Brits has nothing to do with booming while being able to attack/defend. Of course, booming requires more micro, but micro has nothing to do with the problems of the Brits. Harassing while both turtle booming and or not booming should be performed in every game because it throws off your opponent...regardless.

I've been playing the Brits exclusively (no other civ - except for Spain once in a great while during team games), since the game was first released, although I did not get a chance to play the v1.06 Brits when the Longbows were apparently "OP". Getting owned due to a FF has nothing to do with being a Brit noob (or "playing them wrong" - whatever that entails). The British booming advantage only comes into play very rarely, moreover, it's easy to boom with the Brits whether in Discovery, Colonial, Fortress (which is made easy by the 8 villagers shipment and TC's) or Industrial. The problem with Brit Booming typically apples to those not familiar with the Brits, which encompasses being able to "micro" effectively and efficiently enough to not over-Boom while producing enough military to compensate for defense/attack - this is certainly NOT the case when I'm playing the Brits.

The British have the potential to have a very nice late game economy. I will concede this point only. One problem with the British is that their early game typically requires being on the defense, hence, "TURTLING". This is a major problem in and of itself, especially if the Brits are required to turtle (which seems to be the case) because they don't have the military to support defending a major rush-onslaught. I'm of the notion that the 6 LB and Musk cards should be changed to 8.

Another problem is that you need to either build a barracks or a stable. If you're required to defend, you need a barracks because Hussars are not worth their cost in resources (or weight in gold - pun intended) so early in Colonial - unless you waste a shipment on the Hussar Hip Point upgrade - still, Hussars may then be a little more resilient, but they are not cost effect unless you're playing against the Russians or you need a few to take out Abus against the Otto's, in whichcase, this is a major problem when you get hunt-screwed. Still, you can't effectively or efficiently get to Fortress (when not hunt screwed) if you're pumping resources into Hussars - which is the Brit's best raiding unit.

So, in order to harrass your opponent, you need something that is both cost effective and will help promote this entire concept. Unforuntately, the Brits CANNOT Fast Fortress even if you boom, they DO NOT have the necessary counter shipments to fend off other civ's Fortress Age shipments. The Blackwatch from the Church and the 9 Highlanders from Harbor used to be able to compensate, but in TAD they are not effective any more because they get eaten alive - Yes! They will get you by and help you (possibly) survive a Fortress Age assualt/raid by just about any civ, but for 1000 food and 2000 gold, they too ARE NOT cost effective in comparison to other's civ's standard units (Plus, this means TWO SHIPMENTS!). Thus and so, you need to either raid with Muskets or Longbows (and possibly some pike thrown into the mix). However, since you have to Turtle (more than ever in TAD) and defend at the same time...even 5 Longbows or 5 Muskets(or 6 if you use the shipments) is typically the difference between GG (not in your favor!) if you choose to raid instead of defending.

The Cherokee allies card really needs to be rethought. I think better would be 6 Highlanders. It was a "nice" concept for TWC, but realistically, this shipments is pretty much a waste of a shipsment. They get slaughtered by anything with 4 legs (regardless of the opposing civ - including camels), and although they do seem to supplement both the 6 longbows and the 6 Musket shipments, this card should be a TWC only shipment. Something definitely, really needs to take its place, such as 6 Highlanders, which would help even 5 Longbows defend against good bumm-rushes, while 5/6 muskets go raiding your opponent.

Grottenmolch, now you can feel free to argue all you want about how wrong "you think" everyone is for wanting a boost to the Brits, but the BOTTOM LINE remains: the statistics, the stats, the hard facts, the calculatable numbers, the body of evidence, whatever you think or feel like calling it DISPROVES without a shadow of a doubt that YOU and YOUR notions about the Brits are absolutely, positively, and with great certainy...WRONG!

The main problem with the Brits will be explained below in response to MockHamill.

@MockHamill

Quoted from MockHamill:
Their musketeers are good however, but it is more useful to have a strong skirm type unit then a good musketeer unit in most games.

MockHamill makes a very good point, however, the thing about the British that is SUPPOSED to make up for their lack of a Skirmisher unit is their Longbows! These guys need some sort of Boost! I do not know what it is, but they require something of a dire necessity. In Colonial, they can be a major force to be wreckoned with - I have been on the end of this from both sides of the fence - playing with mass longbows and playing against them. The problem is that they either come through or they don't - if your opponent successfully defends, you don't stand a chance! Bottom line...

Another problem arises when you can't both mass them and ship Yoeman. In any game you are unable to ship Yoeman, Longbows are simply NOT effective against other units...even and especially skirmishers - or cheap strelets for that matter - and unless you're Nature Phoenix who doesn't need or require Longbows, and can easily SPAM Muskets and Grens and Hussars and flaming bolts of lightening from his arse all while being able to flawlessly MICRO, the Brits simply don't stand a chance... 50 Longbows should be able to do some type of significant damamge to 50 Dutch Halbs, especially since they're LONBOWS and were made to take out everything on a battle field, but in reality, the 50 Halbs eat LB's alive for breakfast.

Turtling and building an economy all the way into Industrial is definitely not a problem...and is actually quite reminiscent of Treaty games, that is, with the exception of a few skirmishes. Longbows need some type of boost that will allow them to be a little more defensive starting in Colonial (and competative with and as skirmishers) - especially since "turtling" seems to be built into the Brit strategy - maybe they require more hitpoints...

AND...ESO really needs to eliminate the Advanced Arsenal CIR (Counter Infantry Rifling) and substitute it with something that wll help enhance the British military. I don't care if it is for Muskets or Longows - I'd personally like to see something here for the Longbows - but a this point, I don't care if it's for "jovial villagers" as long as it applies to the British and can be used in the here and now and not based on some shipment that may never arive due to your TC's and Outposts being destroyed!

@ultimitsu

Quoted from ultimitsu:
what brit need is :

1, a boost to rocket, they were fine in aoe3, but since twc and tad, there are now some super artillery counters, making this already weak artillery even weaker.

2, a boost to upgrade cards, the 4 +15% cards are all pretty weak, mostly because the units they upgrade to are weak units. the two attack cards should combine into one, change the other current attack card to infantry speed + 10%, the two HP card should also combine into one, make the other one an age4 card that reduces hussar cost and train time by 15%

3, manor build time reduction.

1. I agree with this.

2. I can see this and maybe agree with this in theory. I like the Hussar idea. On the other, in making these suggestions, I cannot understand why it seems feasible to make these type of modifications and give nothing to the Longbows, which is what seems to be broke. On the other hand, if these are AGE 2 cards for Muskets/Grens, then maybe yes. Still...why nothing to the Longbows?

3. Although, I would really love to see this, I am not certain that this is really needed, although, I do think a reduction in manor cost to 130-wood would be more appropriately fitting.
scriv1984
Colonial Militia posted 02-08-08 06:51 PM EDT (US) 20 / 54 scriv1984's Profile Edit This Message Longbows are weak in colonial and early fortress yet still OP in lategame. In ages IV and V they beat all their counters when en mass excluding cuirassiers and to less of an extent mahouts. (bearing in mind that halbs aren't strictly a counter)

Brits are fundamentally flawed IMO in that they have no "go-to" unit which you can use to force the game. Think Forest Prowler, Cuirassier, Howdah, Skirmisher, Wakina, Eagle Runner Knight. These are units which will cause concern to your opponent and give reason to FF in order to gain access to them. Brits have nothing like this. Their muskets, while being strong are easily countered. Longbows are paper-maché until lategame.

And having stats of players who share the same problem is the ultimate proof for this: "Look its not me its the civ! Others are loosing often too! Now ES do something!"

I think this is a flawed argument. The only thing that makes them difficult to play with is the lack of unit-choice.
No offense dude... but I played you in a brit mirror and you played them totally wrong. They are fine. 1 mistake oyu made was shipping 6 longbows and 6 musketeers first. Wheres the point in that if im not rushing you? You should have shipped 700 wood, built some hussars and went longbows. In a brit mirror, build longbows and hussars

subliminal messages
Can you find it...?

Chuck Norris.

Othello484
Skirmisher
posted 02-12-08 03:28 AM EDT (US)     56 / 67       
OK my two cents:

First, I think the weight of the evidence suggests that the Brits are not in the thick area of the bell curve but are in fact UP. I usually play the Brits and although they are competitive, other civs simply outproduce them early and late. I usually outproduce opposing Brits, so I'm pretty good at my eco, but seemingly everytime I beat a Japanese or Dutch player of equal skill he has out produced me. Second, as has been exhaustively discussed, the British NEED their longbows because everyone needs skirmishers, and longbows have "issues." Third, the British musketeer is O.K. and that is all, better than some and worse than others. Fourth, they don't have a hand infantry option, and so their middle of the road musketeer plays "halbedier." (so, unlike the dutch you is to protect the longbow from 4 legged things? - yes, the trusty but average musketeer). Last, and perhaps most important, the hard stats are that the British don't do well.

It seems to me that equal against equal the Brits have at least a slight disadvantage that is leading to their dismal statistics.

I have two changes that I think may make them more middle of the road early/mid and late game, but not OP.

1. Let them build X more houses (perhaps 10 more). This gives them 10 more vills at the cost of 10 houses. (this gives the British player the option of significantly increasing their eco early/mid game but doesn't change their late game eco which is respectable.
2. When the Yeomen card is played longbows cost 40 gold instead of 40 wood. (since gold is less expensive than wood, longbows become cheaper, and also wood must be acquired mid/late game away from your base - if the British is on the defensive he loses the long bow option (and their is a 100% chance he will be up against skirmishers).

After saying all of the above, I know a Lt. Colonel who plays the Brits all the time, indicating she doesn't think they are UP, but then she is a Lt. Colonel and could play as "Mr. Bunny" and still beat me. My point is, I accept that I may be wrong about them being UP.

What do you think?
Lord_Richjp
Skirmisher
posted 02-12-08 11:56 AM EDT (US)     57 / 67       
Lol. Give Brits more booming capacity?! That would be like giving China more discs

My grandmother slaps harder than the Agra Fort shoots. And she's dead. ~ Ender_Ward

By the same token, if I attempt to operate the mouse using nothing but my butt-cheeks, micro will also come down to "luck." ~ Beatnikjoe
Othello484
Skirmisher
posted 02-12-08 02:34 PM EDT (US)     58 / 67       
In the post game, I have routinely had 1/3 more vills and yet been out boomed by the French, 1/5 to 1/4 more vills and been outboomed by the Japanese, and forget about the Dutch and Chinese. Yes, more boom (at a price), just not late game where they are fine.

Anyway, what about the longbow idea?
kilmaim
Skirmisher
posted 02-12-08 03:10 PM EDT (US)     59 / 67       
No offense dude... but I played you in a brit mirror and you played them totally wrong. They are fine. 1 mistake oyu made was shipping 6 longbows and 6 musketeers first. Wheres the point in that if im not rushing you? You should have shipped 700 wood, built some hussars and went longbows. In a brit mirror, build longbows and hussars
And when did we play and what is your ESO name? There are very few Brit mirros I've played recently...please, fill me in
SLEAK
Skirmisher
posted 02-12-08 05:08 PM EDT (US)     60 / 67       
_sandman_. It was recorded

subliminal messages
Can you find it...?

Chuck Norris.

kilmaim
Skirmisher
posted 02-12-08 05:52 PM EDT (US)     61 / 67       
OK...when was the game played? Post it and link it.
sneaky_squirrel
Skirmisher
posted 02-12-08 07:02 PM EDT (US)     62 / 67       
Lol how about if someone uses british agaisnt all the civ he tries and seee if we can convince him, otherwise he wins :P .

But honestly russians can beat a british colonial thanks to easy spam infantry (Strelets) and easy spam cavalry (Cossaks), briths isn't very good against ranged infantry civ.

Off Topic:

It surprises me there are no "friendly" tourneys that don't have any prixes involved, I'd like to join one, but since I live in Mexico (Real near US though) I can't get any of the rpizes therefore I can't enter tourneys, why doesn't anyone do them?

The Gods have left us, therefore making the old world crumble and turn into ashes...

But as the gods return, from the ashes of the old world, shall rise a more beautiful and powerful new world, and life will begin once more, if they hadn't closed...dang you ES.
SLEAK
Skirmisher
posted 02-12-08 11:19 PM EDT (US)     63 / 67       
I just played you again and it wast recorded :P...

subliminal messages
Can you find it...?

Chuck Norris.

AI Guy
Skirmisher
posted 02-12-08 11:38 PM EDT (US)     64 / 67       
Honestly, what I think the brits really need is a new unit. But that's not gonna happen...

___________
[aizone.uni.cc] - Never gonna get updated in your life
MockHamill
Skirmisher
posted 02-13-08 02:58 AM EDT (US)     65 / 67       
I think what Brit need is a boost to Longbows. Early game they are fine, but when your opponent have skirms with 30/30 extra damage/hp from cards they cannot compete.

I suggest that the Yeoman card also gives Longbows a 10/10 damage/hp bonus. It would hardly make them OP since they are still killed by cav but they would have a decent chance vs upgraded skirms.

[This message has been edited by MockHamill (edited 02-13-2008 @ 02:59 AM).]

SLEAK
Skirmisher
posted 02-13-08 04:02 PM EDT (US)     66 / 67       
I suggest that the Yeoman card also gives Longbows a 10/10 damage/hp bonus
You mean 10%, right? 10 extra damage Longbowman > grendarmes.

subliminal messages
Can you find it...?

Chuck Norris.

Rockets1996
Skirmisher
posted 02-13-08 04:17 PM EDT (US)     67 / 67       
brits do not suck
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