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Age of Empires III Heaven » Forums » General Discussions » My Age of Empires 3 Timeline, from Organization to Chaos.
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Topic Subject:My Age of Empires 3 Timeline, from Organization to Chaos.
TheRomans
Skirmisher
posted 04-23-08 00:43 AM EDT (US)         
This post is my evaluation of a game, in the form of a time line, that was once unique and organized to utter Chaos. I will start with the time I started playing AoE3 online(Vanilla 1.06/7) to the time I stopped.(TAD 1.01a)

1.06/7
When I started playing in 1.06/7 the Germans and Ports were all the rage and it was suicide to do anything but FF. But at this time LC was king and had no clearly defined counter unit outside of heavy infantry, but that was largely ineffective. Yet even with the LC imbalance, the game still had a clean class system with the exceptions being Abus Guns, Grenadiers, and Lancers.
1.08
With the FF and Germans nerfed and *LI now being the counter to RC, the game was fairly close to balanced. Spain and Russia had taken the number 1 and 2 spot. Spain still had an overpowered FF and Russia Strelet Spam was just beastly. This patch Longbows were evaluated, but were really more overhype than overpowered.
1.09-1.10
With Spain nerfed, Russia was considered the strongest, but the game was very close to being perfectly balanced with classes still pretty clean.

The War Chiefs
For the first time the classes begin to get blurry and borders and boundaries between unit classes are no longer clearly defined. Coyote Runners look like infantry but act like cavalry. Eagle Runner Knights look like infantry but act like Range Cavalry. Rifle Riders look like Ranged Cavalry but counter Heavy Infantry, but are countered by other Ranged Cavalry and Light Infantry. Arrow Knights look like Infantry but counter Artillery. Light Cannons counter both Infantry and Artillery. And *LI lost their classification. So many exceptions to a good system.

1.0
Agents were simply retarded.

1.01-1.03
Cetan bows were OP. I remember Ender_Ward's thread about, "How long will the cetan abuse continue?" But they were nerfed.

I remember from patch 1.02 to the end of patch 1.03, Iroquois Greathouse laming and Forrest Prowler FF with a forward War Hut was all too common and near impossible to beat.

1.04
Iroquois finally get the nerf they needed.
Cav ranged armor increased some making them more viable early game. Yet with all these class changes brought in by TWC, I felt the game was still organized.

TAD
TAD completely threw the classes out the window. I remember thinking back in Vanilla how everything Countered another unit was fairly simple and easy to follow. TAD changed all that. Not just with the Asian Civs, but in the way the Euro Civs are now too in 1.01a. I feel the counter system of classes is a cluster **** and a balancing nightmare.

The game seems to now be full of, this unit counters this unit except these units because these units need to be countered by these special units. This class is unique to this civ. This unit is this class, but because of ranged armor needs to be countered by this class. X unit has this class but only X units have a bonus against them. If this paragraph confuses you, you now know how I feel about the Units and Class system of this game currently.

I'm all for diversity and adding new things, but I feel personally that TWC and TAD destroyed the organization that was Vanilla. Furthermore, I feel that the recent patches to the game have only made matters worse. The recent patches have added balance extremes to indirectly nerf the unbalance instead of changing what is actually unbalanced. This leads to more imbalance.

I feel that unless the game's classes are reorganized and untangled, then this game will always be an unbalanced mess. Which is the main reason I have really moved on. Oh sure I could adapt and change and memorize the class of every unit. But at heart, I long for a clean system.

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AuthorReplies:
mentork
Skirmisher
posted 04-23-08 01:16 AM EDT (US)     1 / 23       
"I feel that unless the game's classes are reorganized and untangled, then this game will always be an unbalanced mess."

I agree!

Heavy Cavalry should get bonuses vs light infantry and artillery.

Light Cavalry should get bonuses vs Heavy cavalry and artillery.

Heavy infantry should get bonuses vs light cavalry and heavy cavalry

Light infantry should get bonuses vs heavy infantry and light cavalry

Artillery should get bonuses vs heavy infantry and light infantry.

Clean, simple, no exceptions, it would make the game much better.

[This message has been edited by mentork (edited 04-23-2008 @ 01:21 AM).]

ultimitsu
Skirmisher
posted 04-23-08 02:13 AM EDT (US)     2 / 23       
Oh sure I could adapt and change and memorize the class of every unit. But at heart, I long for a clean system.
I resonant to this statement.
StevoPhilo
Skirmisher
posted 04-23-08 02:32 AM EDT (US)     3 / 23       
If vanilla is pretty balance why not play that 1? Also I'm trying to see what units u mean in TAD? I'm guessing mainly jap units like Samurai cause of their speed and ashigaru cause of their high range atk.
TheRomans
Skirmisher
posted 04-23-08 02:53 AM EDT (US)     4 / 23       
If vanilla is pretty balance why not play that 1?
Because as I said in my opening post, I like diversity in the gameplay.
Also I'm trying to see what units u mean in TAD? I'm guessing mainly jap units like Samurai cause of their speed and ashigaru cause of their high range atk.
Siege Elephants are classed as Light Cavalry for some strange reason, maybe because of their speed? But if that were the issue, then Culvs would win when siege eles attack and Dragoons would kill them on the run. There is no reason *LI should beat siege elephants, infact it should be quite the opposite IMO.

Tiger Claws, Disciples, Shaolin Monks, and something else I can't remember are more Pseudo-Cav(infantry-like filling cav jobs) like coyotes.

Had *LI retained their class, there would not be so much confusion on what TAD Cav get their bonuses against.

Btw, wasn't it you, ultimitsu, who once wrote a thread about how hard it would be for a new comer to learn the counters in this game?

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[This message has been edited by TheRomans (edited 04-23-2008 @ 02:57 AM).]

Medio
Skirmisher
(id: Mediolanus)
posted 04-23-08 03:36 AM EDT (US)     5 / 23       
Am I the only one who thinks it's actually good different civs have different units (and not different as in slightly different stats)? If I see a unit, I know what unit to build to counter it (well, most units. I haven't actually seen Ming Iron Troops on the field much), and that's good enough for me.

A problem does exist, I think, in the discrepancy between old and new units. BHG made a new counter system for cavalry, and I actually like it (let's face it, in 1.06/1.07 the role of melee cavalry wasn't exactly large). The problem is they didn't apply this to the old units, which now perform in a very different way, and this is really hard to balance, because one of the two is a lot better vs heavy infantry while the other slaughters light infantry. Boosting one of those two groups benefits one group of civs while hurting the other.
lord lachlan
Skirmisher
posted 04-23-08 05:53 AM EDT (US)     6 / 23       
Thats why i don't patch up.

and the reidicolous download times for dial up

[This message has been edited by lord lachlan (edited 04-23-2008 @ 05:56 AM).]

Humility
Skirmisher
posted 04-24-08 00:42 AM EDT (US)     7 / 23       
they just need to retag. TaD made it simpler by telling you what a unit is and counters just by hovering your mouse over it's picture.
ultimitsu
Skirmisher
posted 04-24-08 09:59 PM EDT (US)     8 / 23       
in the moment it is a mess beyond repair there are way too many exceptions that you wonder were they badly designed or something, to name a few:

urumi - this unit has ROF of 1.0. WTF?, this means in fortress, it may say 20 attack, but it is really 30 in 1.5 ROF standard, having ranged resistance, ranged and area attack, and bonus against HI, the only unit that can beat them cost effectively is hand cavalry that has bonus against infantry.

rattenshield - this unit is exactly the same as coyote runner, but it does not have "coyoteman" tag, WTF?

tiger claw - this unit is designed to be like coyote runner, with an bonus against LI, but itself is classed an LI - so it gets a bonus against itself, and on top of that it is missing coyoteman tag, WTF?

chinese pike - now does 7 x 2.25 = 15.75 dmg to lightinfantry, this means coyote runner, rattenshield, and possibly tiger claw and discples, can beat this direct counter cost effectively.

NatEagleWarrior (not aztec civ's ERK) - still carried Lightinfantry tag, but they do not counter cavalry and they get counted by heavey infantry, the class they suppose to counter.

flame thrower - does not have artillery tag.

[This message has been edited by ultimitsu (edited 04-24-2008 @ 10:07 PM).]

Humility
Skirmisher
posted 04-26-08 05:56 PM EDT (US)     9 / 23       
Coyoteman tag? Aren't Coyote runners just LI?

It seems except for Chinese pike and Urimi it is just tag problems?
ultimitsu
Skirmisher
posted 04-26-08 06:35 PM EDT (US)     10 / 23       
CoyoteMan is the class equivalent to HeavyCavalry, where they should get a multipler from Ranged Cavalry and ERK, but nothing or 0.75 from LI.

all 6.25 speed melee units should have this tag, just like coyote runner
Humility
Skirmisher
posted 04-26-08 07:52 PM EDT (US)     11 / 23       
That would mean German speed boosted pike and spain's speed boosted Rods should have that tag. Doesn't it? Would it not have been simpler if they just gave Coyote runner types the hand calvary tag?
CookieCrisp13
Skirmisher
posted 04-26-08 08:44 PM EDT (US)     12 / 23       
Let me just bud in to say Cetans certainly weren't OP, they were OP in the same way Longbows were, psuedo OP untill massed, as were all longbow type units (such as Yumi).

They took away 10 hp and now they are apparantly fine, so i dont think they were too OP to begin with.

Proud winner of the FFA Winter Round '07!
[Judgε][Epic Thread]
My Vods:[One] [Two][Three][Four]
"with all the bling on a mandsabar you could win the game by paying the enemy to resign." IL
ultimitsu
Skirmisher
posted 04-27-08 02:13 AM EDT (US)     13 / 23       
That would mean German speed boosted pike and spain's speed boosted Rods should have that tag. Doesn't it? Would it not have been simpler if they just gave Coyote runner types the hand calvary tag?
you dont get it...

pike and rods are HeavyInfantry - they get a bonus against cavalry, they get countered by LI and cannon

coyote man type units are more like cavalry, they do not have bonus against other cavalry, they are used against LI and cannon, and LI have should do x 0.75 against them (but since some of them dont have Coyoteman tag so they dont).

there is a difference between coyoteman and Heavycavalry, coyoteman are countered less by range cav, by having a less multiplier.
LordPatrick18
Skirmisher
posted 04-27-08 07:06 AM EDT (US)     14 / 23       
I think a lot of you are nit-picking tbh. Now that the game requires you to build more than 1 unit type in your army, you're complaining.

There are only 2 problems with the game atm. Qiang Pike, and Siege Eles. Perhaps Urimi too, I guess.
The game seems to now be full of, this unit counters this unit except these units because these units need to be countered by these special units
Welcome to an RTS, I guess.

Congratulations Serge - Winner of the FFA Spring Series 2008
ultimitsu
Skirmisher
posted 04-27-08 07:17 AM EDT (US)     15 / 23       
I think a lot of you are nit-picking tbh. Now that the game requires you to build more than 1 unit type in your army, you're complaining.
no one is complaining about that, i think you need to re-read the thread.
TheRomans
Skirmisher
posted 04-27-08 02:36 PM EDT (US)     16 / 23       
I think a lot of you are nit-picking tbh. Now that the game requires you to build more than 1 unit type in your army, you're complaining.
I agree that you need to re-read the thread. To put what you quoted in prospective... HI units counter LC units except Rifle Riders because these units need to be countered by LC. When this game came out there were only 3 countering exceptions, Grenadiers, Abus Guns, and Lancers. Now with TWC and TAD there are so many more. Thats what this thread is about, not "omg, *LI is no longer teh uber pwnage!!!"

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LordPatrick18
Skirmisher
posted 04-27-08 03:01 PM EDT (US)     17 / 23       
no one is complaining about that, i think you need to re-read the thread.
You guys are complaining that there are too many different counters for your liking. I don't know about you guys, but I think a 3-unit RTS game would be kinda boring.

Congratulations Serge - Winner of the FFA Spring Series 2008

[This message has been edited by LordPatrick18 (edited 04-27-2008 @ 03:01 PM).]

Brian_NI
Skirmisher
posted 04-27-08 04:44 PM EDT (US)     18 / 23       
I think a lot of you are nit-picking tbh. Now that the game requires you to build more than 1 unit type in your army, you're complaining.
I agree that you need to re-read the thread. To put what you quoted in prospective... HI units counter LC units except Rifle Riders because these units need to be countered by LC. When this game came out there were only 3 countering exceptions, Grenadiers, Abus Guns, and Lancers. Now with TWC and TAD there are so many more. Thats what this thread is about, not "omg, *LI is no longer teh uber pwnage!!!"
Actually thats not a great example because Rifle Riders both counter and are countered by HI, they are also countered by Ranged Cav due to their Heavy Cav tag AND by former LI like all other Ranged Cav.

[This message has been edited by Brian_NI (edited 04-27-2008 @ 04:45 PM).]

TheRomans
Skirmisher
posted 04-27-08 09:32 PM EDT (US)     19 / 23       
Actually thats not a great example because Rifle Riders both counter and are countered by HI, they are also countered by Ranged Cav due to their Heavy Cav tag AND by former LI like all other Ranged Cav.
HI might have a bonus vs Rifle Riders, but they certainly don't counter them. Your opponent would have to be asleep in his chair for his Rifle Riders to not counter your HI. So the example works.

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Gomezd
Skirmisher
posted 04-28-08 12:29 PM EDT (US)     20 / 23       
I completely agree, after the expansions the game got so messy, I think vanilla 1.08 was the most balanced and organized game we had.
Brian_NI
Skirmisher
posted 04-28-08 02:00 PM EDT (US)     21 / 23       
HI might have a bonus vs Rifle Riders, but they certainly don't counter them. Your opponent would have to be asleep in his chair for his Rifle Riders to not counter your HI. So the example works.

Yes with micro they beat what they are supposed to counter and without it they are countered by their counter, but other units can beat their counters better with micro aswell.
TheRomans
Skirmisher
posted 04-28-08 05:51 PM EDT (US)     22 / 23       
Yes with micro they beat what they are supposed to counter and without it they are countered by their counter, but other units can beat their counters better with micro aswell.
You missed the point I was making. Just because a unit has a bonus vs another unit doesn't make that unit a counter. The only HI that would win vs Rifle Riders at equal cost and upgrades without micro would be 11 Rods vs 5 Riders or 9 Ashigarus vs 5 Rifle Riders. Dopples, Jans, and Sepoy all come close but lose to Rifle Riders. Muskets, pikes, and a few others just get owned by them. Pumas might work, but Warclubs and Tomahawks would get owned. With micro it gets even worse.

If anything HI is a soft counter to Rifle Riders but not a good counter, which is why I say they are not a counter to them. Using HI vs Rifle Riders would be like using jans vs muskets, they would break even at best, which is not countering. To add a final point, Imperial Tercios have a bonus vs Heavy Cav, but lose horribly vs Cuirassiers, but according to stats and bonuses logic, they are a counter to Cuirassiers. This post further adds to the point made in this topic and also points out why this game is balanced based on more than bonuses and math.

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[This message has been edited by TheRomans (edited 04-28-2008 @ 05:54 PM).]

tesloid
Skirmisher
posted 05-12-08 01:22 PM EDT (US)     23 / 23       
I wonder how much of the current state of things has to do with ES_Sandy leaving?
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