You must be logged in to post messages.
Please login or register

General Discussions
Moderated by Maffia, LordKivlov, JimXIX

Hop to:    
Welcome! You are not logged in. Please Login or Register.37 replies
Age of Empires III Heaven » Forums » General Discussions » And the best card in the entire game is...
Bottom
Topic Subject:And the best card in the entire game is...
« Previous Page  1 2  Next Page »
Giskard
Skirmisher
posted 04-29-08 05:36 PM EDT (US)         
I wasn't going to even try analysing this one, as it is incredibly subjective and depends greatly on playing style. However, it seems that people want to discuss it so I though I might as well post this one to supplement my original "worst card" thread.

To make things a little easier, I have divided the "best card" sticker into six categories: best team card, best Treaty card, best aggressive card, best defensive card, best water card and best versatile card. These are the specifications for each category:

Best Team Card

- Refers to 2v2, 3v3 and 4v4 not FFA
- Does not necessarily have to be a TEAM card
- Must work for RANDOM teams

Best Treaty Card

- Refers to all forms of Treaty as well as unofficial "no- rush" games
- If forumers feel uncomfortable discussing Treaty games, this card can also be described as "long-term economic"

Best Aggressive Card

- Refers to any game in which an early offensive (i.e. rush) is preferable
- Can be any shipment (military-based or not) but must be one you would not use in a Treaty game

Best Defensive Card

- Refers to any game in which a defensive strategy (i.e. turtling) is preferable
- Can be any shipment (military-based or not) but must be one you would not use in a Treaty game

Best Water Card

- Refers to any game on a water-dominated map (e.g. Amazonia, Caribbean)
- Does not necessarily have to be a ship shipment () but must not be a card you would send on an all-land map

Best Versatile Card

- Refers to absolutely ANY game
- The card that would be chosen in completely unknown circumstances (except for the card's civilisation)
- Must work fairly well for team, Treaty, aggressive or defensive play
- Does not have to be the best under any of the above circumstances

Rules for all cards

- Can be a card from any civilisation, which one is relevant only insofar as how useful the card is to that civilisation
- Must work for RANDOM maps (exception: water card), with opponent(s) of any civilisation

Please remember to back up any claims with good reasons. I will keep this post updated with the opinions of whomever I judge to have argued their case best so far. May the best cards win!

Best Team Card - TEAM Chonindo
Best Treaty Card - Factory
Best Aggressive Card - 9 Crossbowmen + 2 Uhlans
Best Defensive Card - Improved Buildings
Best Water Card - Recruit Buccaneers
Best Versatile Card - 3 Coureurs

Giskard: BrianManahan = Tsar_Ivan_VII? Discuss.
Giskard: BrianManahan = Tsar_Ivan_VII. It's no longer a question.
Giskard: Isn't BrianManahan liable to be banned anyway for being the smurf of a banned forumer (Tsar_Ivan_VII)?
BrianManahan: I'm not sure who that is, Giskard, but I see what you is trying to do. I don't smurf >:O

(One day later) Moderator Announcements: Tsar_Ivan_VII / BrianManahan Banned Permanently - IP Match

[This message has been edited by Giskard (edited 06-12-2008 @ 12:12 PM).]

AuthorReplies:
Giskard
Skirmisher
posted 05-02-08 02:43 PM EDT (US)     26 / 37       
@ Spectruz:

You're right about the water card. I'm not certain but I believe that in water maps early control is essential, and I can't think of any single Age 2 water shipment that would beat 3 privateers. Changing now.

@ Lord_RichJP:
France has no shipment penalty, so you'll see 3 CDBs before you get 2 SWs.
You can compare the value of 2 cards by which civ gets them.


Did you mean "can" or "can't"? Assuming you were replying to The Jackal's post, I don't really understand what you've typed...

Giskard: BrianManahan = Tsar_Ivan_VII? Discuss.
Giskard: BrianManahan = Tsar_Ivan_VII. It's no longer a question.
Giskard: Isn't BrianManahan liable to be banned anyway for being the smurf of a banned forumer (Tsar_Ivan_VII)?
BrianManahan: I'm not sure who that is, Giskard, but I see what you is trying to do. I don't smurf >:O

(One day later) Moderator Announcements: Tsar_Ivan_VII / BrianManahan Banned Permanently - IP Match
The Jackal
Skirmisher
posted 05-02-08 03:25 PM EDT (US)     27 / 37       
I'm going to assume the 'can' is a typo as well. And I utterly disagree, for the record, since the 2 SW card gets a shipment penalty which is supposed to compensate for the free uhlans you get, except it doesn't come with free uhlans.

If you don't examine the card in the context of the civ that gets it, then you're not evaluating the card in any meaningful fashion.
schildpad
Skirmisher
posted 05-02-08 03:42 PM EDT (US)     28 / 37       
I still disagree with people who say colonial militia is better than improved buildings for defensive.

And having a good card for water control is nice, but completely pointless if you cant utilize the water. And you need schooners to do that.

Also if another civ just send 2 caravel then you cant make them stop fishing near dock range.

"such a kind fellow!" ~ ķįŋğ_Ćħŗĩ_ĬĬ

Furby killer should be crowned leader of AOE forum ~ [SW_GD]Teutonic

Giskard
Skirmisher
posted 05-02-08 04:21 PM EDT (US)     29 / 37       
@ The Jackal & Lord_RichJP:

This is a very tricky decision. It seems I'm going to have to set a precedent as to whether or not a card's civilisation can affect its quality. It does say in the rules that a card's civilisation has little relevance, but on the other hand this is an economic-based card and Germany's shipment penalty factors into that... I'll type the decision in executive format, so that both sides can understand why I made that decision and hopefully agree with it.

Lord_RichJP (2 Settler Wagons) vs. The Jackal (3 Coureurs)
In my opinion 3 coureurs is better because:

- They cost 3 pop, not 4 pop
- They can be dispersed over more resources
- They have higher ranged resistance, attack and speed
- Settler wagons have only 60 more (combined) hp and a couple of slightly better multipliers
- The difference is only 0.25 of a villager, which I think is exceeded by the advantages above
3 cours = 3.75 villies whereas the 2 settler wagon = 4 villies. Regardless of how long germans get their shipments, the settler wagons will gather up faster and eventually give more resources than the cours you get earlier.
Fact 1

The only reason 2 SW is currently thought of as the better card is that its raw economic value surpasses that of 3 Cdb. If this value were decreased, 3 Cdb would be the better card.
Just this: France has no shipment penalty, so you'll see 3 CDBs before you get 2 SWs.
Fact 2

The aforementioned economic bonus is technically nullified by Germany's slower shipments. If this were allowed to be taken into account, 3 Cdb would be the better card.
You [EDIT OF PROBABLE ERROR]can't compare the value of 2 cards by which civ gets them.
If you don't examine the card in the context of the civ that gets it, then you're not evaluating the card in any meaningful fashion.
Best Agressive Card - 9 Crossbowmen + 2 Uhlans
Fact 3

German cards are not discriminated against because of slower shipments, else the current best aggressive card would not be so. However, if the civilisation's attributes affect the card's utility, they must be factored in.

Conclusion

3 Coureurs is a better card than 2 Settler Wagons because economically (and particularly as SW are unique) they cannot be unaffected by German's shipment penalty. However, in future all German cards except direct military shipments will have the extra Uhlans ignored. For instance, Factory will not be replaced by Factory + 4 Uhlans. Changing card selection now.

Giskard: BrianManahan = Tsar_Ivan_VII? Discuss.
Giskard: BrianManahan = Tsar_Ivan_VII. It's no longer a question.
Giskard: Isn't BrianManahan liable to be banned anyway for being the smurf of a banned forumer (Tsar_Ivan_VII)?
BrianManahan: I'm not sure who that is, Giskard, but I see what you is trying to do. I don't smurf >:O

(One day later) Moderator Announcements: Tsar_Ivan_VII / BrianManahan Banned Permanently - IP Match
Lord_Richjp
Skirmisher
posted 05-02-08 06:18 PM EDT (US)     30 / 37       
In that case Spain's 3 villies is best...

My grandmother slaps harder than the Agra Fort shoots. And she's dead. ~ Ender_Ward

By the same token, if I attempt to operate the mouse using nothing but my butt-cheeks, micro will also come down to "luck." ~ Beatnikjoe
Giskard
Skirmisher
posted 05-03-08 04:28 AM EDT (US)     31 / 37       
Germany's settler shipment = 4 settlers
France's settler shipment = 3.75 settlers
Spain's settler shipment = 3 settlers

G - F = 0.25 settlers - Overcome by shipment penalty
F - S = 0.75 settlers - Not overcome by shipment bonus

Do you see the difference? Economically, Germany's slow first shipment negates the advantage of 0.25 settlers. However, a disadvantage of 0.75 settlers is larger and will not be made up by Spain's shipment bonus. Additionally, Spanish settlers are weaker in combat than coureurs, which lowers their shipment's value further.

Giskard: BrianManahan = Tsar_Ivan_VII? Discuss.
Giskard: BrianManahan = Tsar_Ivan_VII. It's no longer a question.
Giskard: Isn't BrianManahan liable to be banned anyway for being the smurf of a banned forumer (Tsar_Ivan_VII)?
BrianManahan: I'm not sure who that is, Giskard, but I see what you is trying to do. I don't smurf >:O

(One day later) Moderator Announcements: Tsar_Ivan_VII / BrianManahan Banned Permanently - IP Match
English Shogun
Skirmisher
posted 05-03-08 05:43 AM EDT (US)     32 / 37       
i like the card that gives you a shogun. 1000s of hitties and 100s of attack makes it perfect for destroying cannons and their guards.

also, the church cards, while they may not be the best, are VERY interesting.

i likes factories too
Giskard
Skirmisher
posted 05-03-08 08:52 AM EDT (US)     33 / 37       
Me likes factories as well. Is very fun making big gun to boom-boom on little men...

Giskard: BrianManahan = Tsar_Ivan_VII? Discuss.
Giskard: BrianManahan = Tsar_Ivan_VII. It's no longer a question.
Giskard: Isn't BrianManahan liable to be banned anyway for being the smurf of a banned forumer (Tsar_Ivan_VII)?
BrianManahan: I'm not sure who that is, Giskard, but I see what you is trying to do. I don't smurf >:O

(One day later) Moderator Announcements: Tsar_Ivan_VII / BrianManahan Banned Permanently - IP Match

[This message has been edited by Giskard (edited 05-03-2008 @ 05:59 PM).]

Lord_Richjp
Skirmisher
posted 05-03-08 05:09 PM EDT (US)     34 / 37       
Spain's shipment bonus is bigger than Germany's disadvantage and you didn't include that in your comparison...

My grandmother slaps harder than the Agra Fort shoots. And she's dead. ~ Ender_Ward

By the same token, if I attempt to operate the mouse using nothing but my butt-cheeks, micro will also come down to "luck." ~ Beatnikjoe
Giskard
Skirmisher
posted 05-03-08 05:57 PM EDT (US)     35 / 37       
@ Lord_RichJP:

It is, but my point is that a 0.75 villager difference is larger than a 0.25 villager difference. Correct me if I'm wrong, but I don't think Spain's shipment bonus is three times as big as Germany's shipment penalty.

Giskard: BrianManahan = Tsar_Ivan_VII? Discuss.
Giskard: BrianManahan = Tsar_Ivan_VII. It's no longer a question.
Giskard: Isn't BrianManahan liable to be banned anyway for being the smurf of a banned forumer (Tsar_Ivan_VII)?
BrianManahan: I'm not sure who that is, Giskard, but I see what you is trying to do. I don't smurf >:O

(One day later) Moderator Announcements: Tsar_Ivan_VII / BrianManahan Banned Permanently - IP Match
Lord_Richjp
Skirmisher
posted 05-03-08 06:36 PM EDT (US)     36 / 37       
Well, it might be

I can't remember if it is 2.5 times or more than 3 times.

My grandmother slaps harder than the Agra Fort shoots. And she's dead. ~ Ender_Ward

By the same token, if I attempt to operate the mouse using nothing but my butt-cheeks, micro will also come down to "luck." ~ Beatnikjoe
Giskard
Skirmisher
posted 05-04-08 04:24 AM EDT (US)     37 / 37       
Well, it seems that we're now decided on the best cards in the entire game. We can leave this thread in peace until, in a year's time, some other forumer makes exactly the same topic and no-one remembers the ground-breaking analysis perfected here. Won't that be fun...

EDIT: All new ideas to be directed to the "Best and the Worst" sticky please.

Giskard: BrianManahan = Tsar_Ivan_VII? Discuss.
Giskard: BrianManahan = Tsar_Ivan_VII. It's no longer a question.
Giskard: Isn't BrianManahan liable to be banned anyway for being the smurf of a banned forumer (Tsar_Ivan_VII)?
BrianManahan: I'm not sure who that is, Giskard, but I see what you is trying to do. I don't smurf >:O

(One day later) Moderator Announcements: Tsar_Ivan_VII / BrianManahan Banned Permanently - IP Match

[This message has been edited by Giskard (edited 05-10-2008 @ 04:58 PM).]

« Previous Page  1 2  Next Page »
You must be logged in to post messages.
Please login or register

Hop to:    

Age of Empires III Heaven | HeavenGames