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Topic Subject:I played this game yesterday....
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ultimitsu
Skirmisher
posted 05-04-08 02:20 AM EDT (US)         
I was sioux against an india.

as usual he comes in with sepoys, I fought that off with shipped 6 cetan, 10 pistol, and local made bowrider.

I won that battle with help of TC and 1 WH.

no major fighting for another 5 minutes of so, we trade off a few shots. I continure to make bowrider and cetan.

then he comes with an army of mostly rajput, with small number of sepoys and that 10 tiger claw.

I watched everything i had disappeared before my eyes in seconds.

Bowrider does not counter tiger claw, but tiger claw counters cetan badly...

rajput does 20 x 3 dmg to bowrider (after +15% melee dmg card), while cetan does 30 to rajpuy...

but if rajput catch cetan in melee, cetan get owned.

if I was dumb enough to make warclub against tiger claw, their would get owned badly by sepoy and rajput.

as you can imagine, after i lost the game, i scatched my head, hard, trying to think what i should have done.

and I couldnt figure it out.

the only units that beat fast HI properly are ranged heavy infantry, instant fire LI, or stronger hand HI.

Sioux has none.

apart from that 10 pistols, everything else sioux has just dont cut it.

actually sioux had the same problem against spanish rush back in the early days onf TWC, nothing was able to beat rods.

only this time Rajpu does 80% more damage for 35% more the cost.

but i think this is just a rant after all, ES wont do anything about it as always.
AuthorReplies:
English Shogun
Skirmisher
posted 05-04-08 03:20 AM EDT (US)     1 / 51       
i don't play soiux that often since they cant build walls but if you had axe riders you would have been able to fight back, maybe even win.

if you were in 3rd age you should've got rifle riders, of course, since they counter almost everything. buit yeah...in age 2 you should go with axes.
schildpad
Skirmisher
posted 05-04-08 03:56 AM EDT (US)     2 / 51       
@shogun, honestly, dont post if you havent read the OP.

So now rajputs are OP?

The large question imo: Why did you make bowriders? It just doesnt make sense imo. An indian player will never do much cav. And if he decides to go raiding with a few camels your axeriders will easily take them out. Why not just clubmen + cetans, and use some shipped axeriders for raiding?

And any civ got a bit of same problem. Those tigerclaws forced your units in melee, so his rajputs didnt get wtf pwned.
When the indian attacked the first time, you had a warhut, a stable, 2 shipments send and you made bowriders, which also take pretty long to train. Did you seriously hurt your eco by aging up very fast, or was your indian opponent just slow?

I just dont see why you would make bowriders instead of warclubs. Warclubs are a meatshield, and dont get countered by rajputs. bowriders arent a great meatshield when rajput are involved, so or they died in seconds, or you retreated them leaving your cetans vurnerable.
And cetans cant hit and run, and that hurts, true. But they still do TWICE the damage of skirms vs rajputs. If you would have had a little meatshield the indian player would have been whining here that his BO he downloaded because they all do that didnt work.


10 tigerclaws are also a one time shipment, just like your pistoleres.

"such a kind fellow!" ~ ķįŋğ_Ćħŗĩ_ĬĬ

Furby killer should be crowned leader of AOE forum ~ [SW_GD]Teutonic

ultimitsu
Skirmisher
posted 05-04-08 04:55 AM EDT (US)     3 / 51       
its not so much rajput is OP - in fact they are often quite useless, but rather the game now has so many different units, designed over different times by different people, it leaves holes in the counter cycle. colonial sioux simply dont have a unit that is able to fight units like rajput (and rods when they had 12 dmg).

and the other issue is tiger claw having no coyoteman tag so they are not countered by ranged cav.

why make bowrider? bowrider has became the core of sioux colonial warfare, they break even against most muskts units in range, kill vils faster, beat all other cavalry, and can do decent damage against LI in melee.

on the other hand warclubs are almost completely useless in the age of muskets and melee cavalry. not only they do minimal damage to musket units, they are no meat shield either, 90 res for 110 HP, I get 250 HP for 170 res with bowriders. if I did make them, i would have died in the first battle.
When the indian attacked the first time, you had a warhut, a stable, 2 shipments send and you made bowriders, which also take pretty long to train. Did you seriously hurt your eco by aging up very fast, or was your indian opponent just slow?
I dont understand the question, it was after 2 shipments into colonial he has quite a sizable army too, he didnt attack earlier because i was raiding his base, but unable to do much damage because of the agra fort.

[This message has been edited by ultimitsu (edited 05-04-2008 @ 05:03 AM).]

Lord_Richjp
Skirmisher
posted 05-04-08 06:03 AM EDT (US)     4 / 51       
Maybe if your bow riders did get the bonus you would've had a chance... I think evening star could've worked (should counter sepoys, rajputs, and should beat tiger claws but Tiger claws don't have the right tag afaik)

My grandmother slaps harder than the Agra Fort shoots. And she's dead. ~ Ender_Ward

By the same token, if I attempt to operate the mouse using nothing but my butt-cheeks, micro will also come down to "luck." ~ Beatnikjoe
Flair
Skirmisher
posted 05-04-08 06:36 AM EDT (US)     5 / 51       
apart from that 10 pistols, everything else sioux has just dont cut it.
In Colonial right? Then I totally agree. Cetan Bows are terrible. War Clubs aren't bad, they do badly against anything other than cavalry. Bow Riders are very nice, but as you said, HI just kicks their ass if they can next to them. What I do is just let my Bow Riders shoot until the HI gets next to them, then just pack up my AR/BR army and run away. If they go on attacking buildings, I rush back in. It takes forever to kill anything, and is totally ineffective, but it's the only way I can see beating HI in Colonial. That and Evening Star, but Rifle Riders only last for so long.
schildpad
Skirmisher
posted 05-04-08 08:57 AM EDT (US)     6 / 51       
So you are basicly abusing bow riders (Since they arent meant to counter sepoy), and then it is a problem when heavy infantry actually counters your infantry.

And cetans are just awesome if they got a little meatshield. No hit and run, but they deal two times more damage vs all units than skirms.
And clubmen are hardly worse than pikes, so imagine how dutch should counter this (and believe me, hit and running him will be over really soon vs those fast units, and dutch dont have bowriders).

btw, warclubs have 120 HP according to unit chart.


Cetans need a meatshield and then they are great. Sure clubs arent that great meatshield, but better than bowriders. And cetans wont have much trouble vs sepoy, so no need to let bowriders kill sepoy.

Also: why on earth didnt he attack faster? Because you were raiding him must be one of the worst reasons ever. His sepoys arent going to change anything about you raiding him.
If you were raiding with bowriders, then he should have attacked immediatly so he could first kill your defenders, than bow riders. If you were raiding with axe riders, he just gave you way too much time.

"such a kind fellow!" ~ ķįŋğ_Ćħŗĩ_ĬĬ

Furby killer should be crowned leader of AOE forum ~ [SW_GD]Teutonic

[This message has been edited by schildpad (edited 05-04-2008 @ 09:00 AM).]

Grottenmolch
Skirmisher
posted 05-04-08 02:50 PM EDT (US)     7 / 51       
IMO cetans and clubs mainly with some axe and pistoleros sended will do the job.
Cetans, clubs and pistoleros served me fine in colonial.

Btw clubs are HI and Tigerclaws get a x0.5 against them and a x2.0 agianst abstract inf, so they do 15 dmg with 150 hp and a range res of 0.2.

Warclub has 120 hp with a 0.2 hand res and they deal 10 dmg with a bonus of x4.0 (!!) against LI.

So after all this they are a good meatshild and the cetans work fine against HI due to the patch.
ultimitsu
Skirmisher
posted 05-04-08 07:36 PM EDT (US)     8 / 51       
pistols works fine, because they are muskter unit after all, but i only get 10 and they all died in first fight.

I made a typo earlier, warclub does have 120 HP, but that is still very frigile for 147 VS, when standard muskteer gives 150 HP and only cost 141 VS, tomahawk with WC aura gives 172.5 HP for 149 VS, Sepoy gives 190 HP for 170 VS, Jannisary gives 235 HP for 175 VS. warclubs are anything but meatshield.

cetans may do well in theory, 60 dmg per 3 seconds to HI, but in practice, combined with their crappy range, slow setup time, tiny hp and slow speed, they suck big time.

some will say you should have WC there to boost speed. that is just like how people always exaggerate micro - in game it is very hard to always keep your WC alive and always around, more over the best way to play sioux right now is to keep wc and a couple of cavalry close to enemy base, as soon as battle begins you should do a 3 horse raid. which means WC will be absent from the battlefield and gives no support to Cetans.
So you are basicly abusing bow riders (Since they arent meant to counter sepoy)
make use of the most effective unit of a lower tier civ is now called "abusing" ?

where does that put indian players that always make truckloads sepoys before there is any cavalry in sight?
CookieCrisp13
Skirmisher
posted 05-04-08 10:31 PM EDT (US)     9 / 51       
I would do the 4 axe-> build like five convert for defense the n get a warhut up or something of the sort. The pistoleros card certainly isnt too bad though.

India isnt exactly an even matchup for the sioux.

Proud winner of the FFA Winter Round '07!
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StevoPhilo
Skirmisher
posted 05-05-08 02:25 AM EDT (US)     10 / 51       
Against certain civs you want to FF. India is one of them. Get some rifle riders and you would've won that....
ultimitsu
Skirmisher
posted 05-05-08 04:44 AM EDT (US)     11 / 51       
you never want FF as sioux in 1.01, ever.

firstly most civs got a colonial boost, so you are guaranteed to get rushed if you ff, and with wakina price increase and nerf agaisnt cavalry, you will die to any rush.

secondly with indian will always rush you, hard, they have access to ranged cavalry and LI, both beat rifle riders badly.
schildpad
Skirmisher
posted 05-05-08 07:56 AM EDT (US)     12 / 51       
Indians will always rush you. 95% of the indian players arent even aware they can do something besides rushing. (the remaining 5% are treaty players).

And without ability to build walls they need to actively defend.
where does that put indian players that always make truckloads sepoys before there is any cavalry in sight?
Sepoy arent just anti cav. But it puts an indian player at lamer position, if he cant do anything besides following a BO he downloaded.
made a typo earlier, warclub does have 120 HP, but that is still very frigile for 147 VS, when standard muskteer gives 150 HP and only cost 141 VS, tomahawk with WC aura gives 172.5 HP for 149 VS, Sepoy gives 190 HP for 170 VS, Jannisary gives 235 HP for 175 VS. warclubs are anything but meatshield.
And now look at dutch, they only got pikes as meatshield. Who are probably slighlty more cost effective as meatshield, and a bit worse vs rajput.
cetans may do well in theory, 60 dmg per 3 seconds to HI, but in practice, combined with their crappy range, slow setup time, tiny hp and slow speed, they suck big time.
Crappy range not really a problem vs HI, since you cant hit and run anyway (unless you boost them to lbow range, then it would help, but you wouldnt notice a little bit extra range).
slow setup time = 1.5 seconds. Dont try to hit and run.
Tiny HP: get a meatshield
slow speed: dont try to hit and run, get a meatshield.

Ideally you want to just put them behind walls, but that is a slight problem for sioux. If you use cetans you need a meatshield. When the opponent just uses cav and/or *LI, you can use axe riders or bow riders for that.
If the opponent used fast melee HI (combined with LI/cav), that wont work. Then you just need a real meatshield. Or use natives, or accept you need to use warclubs that arent great.

"such a kind fellow!" ~ ķįŋğ_Ćħŗĩ_ĬĬ

Furby killer should be crowned leader of AOE forum ~ [SW_GD]Teutonic

ultimitsu
Skirmisher
posted 05-05-08 09:45 PM EDT (US)     13 / 51       
Crappy range not really a problem vs HI, since you cant hit and run anyway (unless you boost them to lbow range, then it would help, but you wouldnt notice a little bit extra range).
slow setup time = 1.5 seconds. Dont try to hit and run.
Tiny HP: get a meatshield
slow speed: dont try to hit and run, get a meatshield.
you need to play sioux in 1v1 more. ignoring many in game factors.

range is a huge thing for 1.5 ROF archer units, because they either get a few shots in and damage opp unit badly, or dont do enough damage and get beaten in melee. this is why Simonole Sharktooth bowman suck badly as well.

Speed is important because you can outrun HI when you are too close and then reposition yourself, I have been playing a lot of Iro after 1.01 and I use Aennas to this effect. if they insist on following you then your musket unit get to shoot them down, as with Tomas. but sioux do not have musket support unit and cetans can not outrun anything without the (short lived) WC.

Cetan's tiny HP not only make them very venerable to melee units, but also means they dont live long under ranged fire either. try an army of 50% cetan + 50% warclub, VS equal cost 50% toma + 50 % aenna see who wins.
And now look at dutch, they only got pikes as meatshield. Who are probably slighlty more cost effective as meatshield, and a bit worse vs rajput.
take note on where does dutch rank currently.
Sepoy arent just anti cav.


Bowrider arent just anti cav either.
But it puts an indian player at lamer position, if he cant do anything besides following a BO he downloaded.
no.

people choose to make the most effective unit their civ get, because they want to win, there is nothing wrong with it, it is upto the game designer to balance the units so every unit get a fair share of use. not the players.

besides, there are many ways to lame indian and not all of them involve sepoy.
jayce
Skirmisher
posted 05-06-08 11:20 PM EDT (US)     14 / 51       
U made bowriders which counter nothing in his army. War clubs woulda been a much better option because it keeps your cetans firing instead of getting caught in mellee. And if your bows are getting caught by rajputs then you aren't micro'ing your army.
ultimitsu
Skirmisher
posted 05-07-08 09:18 PM EDT (US)     15 / 51       
bowrider, 40 damage per 3 second ranged attack unit, in your opinion is useless, while warclub, also counters almost nothing, has no ranged attack and a pathetic 10 melee damage, is a better choice?

and my 4 speed bows got caught up by 5 speed melee unit is a result or lack of micro...

which game do you play?
The Jackal
Skirmisher
posted 05-07-08 10:31 PM EDT (US)     16 / 51       
I agree, Ulti. The counter system leaves you stone screwed. It's really the terrifying speed of rajputs that make them so hateful. Anyone who's scared of late game Doppelsoldners has got to respect Raj's, because they come out of the gate with the kind of speed that Dopps need 2 cards to get.

They don't upgrade as well as Dopps, but if the game never gets past colonial, who cares?

Honestly, I have more or less quit playing civs that don't get a musketeer type (Janns, Sepoys, Ashis count, Tomohawks don't), with the sole exception of germans, because I love them too much. You need them to get a good flexible meat shield.
jayce
Skirmisher
posted 05-08-08 00:13 AM EDT (US)     17 / 51       
You skewed everything I said, no wonder u had trouble...

"rajput does 20 x 3 dmg to bowrider (after +15% melee dmg card), while cetan does 30 to rajpuy..."

Bow riders do not have 4 speed. I did not say cetans, I said bows. If your 6.8 speed 12 range bowriders are getting mellee'd by 5 speed rajputs you did not micro.

I didn't say bowriders are useless, I said they don't counter anything in that army which they don't. OTH warclubs counter tiger claws (do 30 dmg to tigerclaws, not 10 like u stated), provide a meatshield allowing your cetans to stay at range and are not countered by rajputs even when u decide not to micro so it has three benefits for you.

At first it sounded like you wanted advice but just looks like your trying to convince yourself u weren't out played. Sorry to break it to you, but u made the wrong units.
StevoPhilo
Skirmisher
posted 05-08-08 01:15 AM EDT (US)     18 / 51       
I must admit. I was trying to FF with sioux but I realized that there is no way when someone is doing the 10/10 sepoy rush. Regardless. Cetans or not, they suck azz. You don't have much of a choice as sioux. Then Iro in colonial vs Sioux in colonial is another joke. Tomahawks aren't the best in colonial but they are still there to counter w/e calv sioux makes. Aennas own cetan and cost less. Clubman can't do crap.... Bow riders die to Aennas. I seriously don't see sioux very effective at all in colonial. There only time to shine is in fortress. A good player wouldn't allow that though. Sioux is a civ that needs to FF and finish off otherwise their eco can't support them very well in the end. Sioux needs a colonial boost imo...
ultimitsu
Skirmisher
posted 05-08-08 01:29 AM EDT (US)     19 / 51       
At first it sounded like you wanted advice but just looks like your trying to convince yourself u weren't out played. Sorry to break it to you, but u made the wrong units.
I didnt need advice, because I know what went wrong - the counter cycle in a game that is designed by 3 different group of people over different times.

no, I was not outplayed, I would know when I get outplayed, and I would know when I get lamed, this is not either of these cases, this is when the game is somewhat broken.

i could have got my bowrider to run away, but then they will never do any damage, and i will just let him siege my warhunt and then my TC.

the only thing Warclub would have countered is tiger claws, but would have lost much worse to gurka and sepoy, I had no way of predicting when will he send these tiger claws, so for me to just made warclubs in anticipation would not have been a good move.

what it coumes down to is:

1, all coyote type units need to have coyoteman tag so they are countered by ranged cavalry.
2, sioux needs a colonial unit, that is either a instant fire LI or hight HP HI that can stand up against other fast and high melee damage HI.


before anyone mentions Teepee, without cards teepees are useless, only 10 effective range and is quite expensive. a luxury you cant enjoy in mid colonial.

[This message has been edited by ultimitsu (edited 05-08-2008 @ 07:22 AM).]

jayce
Skirmisher
posted 05-08-08 02:25 AM EDT (US)     20 / 51       
Bowriders can avoid being mellee'd and do dmg at the same time.

Warclubs would counter his tigers AND provide a meatshield for your cetan. Bowriders can't do that and die if u let them get mellee'd.

You do have a way of predicting, u can see his deck, and u have the best scout in the game. Instead u made bow riders which don't counter anything in that army. Sure india is tough, sure tigers should get the coyo tag but in the game u described war clubs are a much better option and u lost because your army did not counter your opponents army.
The Jackal
Skirmisher
posted 05-08-08 02:28 AM EDT (US)     21 / 51       
Bow riders do not have 4 speed. I did not say cetans, I said bows. If your 6.8 speed 12 range bowriders are getting mellee'd by 5 speed rajputs you did not micro.
I don't know that I can accept that at face value. Bow riders have a draw animation before they shoot, and with a 5 speed, rajputs will be back in your face from a range of 12 in just over 2 seconds. In other words, microing bow riders will result in lots of running and not much shooting, and the formation rules being what they are, you'll frequently lose riders while they get back in a nice line before running away.
ultimitsu
Skirmisher
posted 05-08-08 06:31 AM EDT (US)     22 / 51       
Bowriders can avoid being mellee'd and do dmg at the same time.
against villagers.
You do have a way of predicting, u can see his deck, and u have the best scout in the game.
lol

after playing the game for 30 month here i got someone telling me i can see my opponent's deck! yeah, really helpful.

and tell me, just how does seeing his deck help me predict when will he send that card?

as for the "best scout in the game", he is dead half the time, and half dead the other half. he has merely 750 hp at full, should he dare run pass the troop massing agra fort alone, he would get shot down by some 10~20 sepoys instantly.

Jayce, do me a favour, stop talking about things you dont understand, really.

[This message has been edited by ultimitsu (edited 05-08-2008 @ 06:41 AM).]

schildpad
Skirmisher
posted 05-08-08 06:48 AM EDT (US)     23 / 51       
Get your stats right ulti, you are again wrong.

"such a kind fellow!" ~ ķįŋğ_Ćħŗĩ_ĬĬ

Furby killer should be crowned leader of AOE forum ~ [SW_GD]Teutonic

Colonel_UGMO
Veteran Musketeer (Content Contributor)
posted 05-08-08 07:00 AM EDT (US)     24 / 51       
The best scout in the game is actually advanced balloon

ESO NAME: UGMO
RANK: 1st Lieutenant
I AM USING: TAD
I AM PLAYING: The Aztecs, British and Russians
.oO James246: Well, you wouldn't be able to sigg any dumb things I say, because I don't say them. :P Oo.
TheRomans
Skirmisher
posted 05-08-08 08:56 AM EDT (US)     25 / 51       
Ulti is right. He lost because of a flawed counter system. Both Tiger Claws and Rattan Shields need the AbstractCoyoteMan tag so Ranged Cavalry counters them.

Also with the new patch, most Ranged Infantry does 2.0x the damage to Eagle Runner Knights, but does .75X vs AbstractCoyoteMan, but since Eagle Runner Knights are not AbstractCoyoteMan, most skirms do 2.0X damage vs them when they only 1.5X vs Ranged Cav. How unfair to Aztecs. This also means that all skirms do full damage to Tiger Claws and Rattan Shields because they are missing the CoyoteMan tag. Another loophole.

I agree on building Bow Riders over the oh-so-awesome-you-jump-for-joy Warclubs that Sioux are stuck with. I mean, how many civs continue to make pikes when they have access to Dragoons or other Ranged Cav? I know I don't. Sioux have this option in colonial and they should be able to use it.

In your case ulti, Dog Soldiers would have been the only other unit, because Sioux don't have Spies or Cannon, that would have countered Tiger Claws, because they are AbstractInfantry. On the other hand, Rattan Shields are not, keep this in mind. To bad this game was in colonial.

+----------+
| PLEASE |
| DO NOT |
| FEED THE |
| TROLLS |
+----------+

[This message has been edited by TheRomans (edited 05-08-2008 @ 09:10 AM).]

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