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Age of Empires III Heaven » Forums » Scenario Design » Help is Needed with “No Rush” Map – Experts Please Come to the Rescue
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Topic Subject:Help is Needed with “No Rush” Map – Experts Please Come to the Rescue
MosheLevi
Scenario Contest Winner
posted 06-16-06 03:39 PM EDT (US)         
Help is Needed with “No Rush” Map – Experts Please Come to the Rescue

This message is to the best Random Map scripts writers out here, as this is supposed to be a real challenge (at least according to Ensemble).

Furby-killer (schildpad) came up with a solution for “No Rush” games.
He has created a custom map with indestructible wall in the center of the map (dividing the two sides) with a timer.
Once the timer expires (e.g. 20 minutes), both sides can destroy the wall very easily, and as a result they can cross to the other side.

I have played this map several times and it works great since no forward building is possible, and the explorer or any other units cannot cross to the other side before the “No Rush” expires.
So you see, with this solution it is not possible to break the “No Rush” rules.

I have talked to Sandy Petersen (lead designer for the xpack) but he is claiming that they cannot find away to incorporate the center wall with normal random maps.
Their problem is that the wall can overlay with many other objects such as gold mines, trading routes, trading posts and so on.
They don’t want to offer a static (fixed) map because they believe that people would complain that it is not random.

However, I don’t understand how is it that they can prevent a gold mine from overlaying a tree, but cannot prevent a gold mine from overlaying a wall.
Is there any difference?
I am therefore pretty sure they Ensemble could create a random map that can avoid placing any objects over the center wall (if they really wanted to).
Regarding trading routes, they can put 2 trading routes parallel to the center wall on both sides.
For now such “No Rush” map doesn’t have to have water, or at least not at the center of the map.

Will anyone here be able to take a look at Furby’s “No Rush” map solution, and see if it impossible to add that center wall to one of your random maps without overlaying any
objects?

Would it be possible to add the center wall to Ensemble’s “Unknown” map and removing all water from the center of the map (in the case of a water map)?

Here is the link to Furby’s (schildpad) maps.
http://home.student.utwente.nl/e.olieman

Thank you in advance for your help,

Moshe Levi

[This message has been edited by MosheLevi (edited 06-16-2006 @ 04:58 PM).]

AuthorReplies:
fryBASS
Skirmisher
(id: LO12DS_Frylock)
posted 06-16-06 04:34 PM EDT (US)     1 / 22       
ummm... what about Hot Air Balloons?

Check out my YouTube Page!
ESO - LO12DS_Fry
schildpad
Skirmisher
posted 06-16-06 04:53 PM EDT (US)     2 / 22       
hot air balloon rush? Never seen it, but last time i checked they dont have attack


some points:
The map is just as random as normal ES' maps, that means not really random. But it is based on their own map. Forests etc arent static, the area were the wall is placed is a connection (between the cliffs were the wall ends), and with constraints i prevent objects from coming near it.

unknown would be possible i guess, but a few problems:

you allready mentioned water
traderoutes may not obstruct the wall
player placement: i use rms place object, and you cant change the heading of walls. So for a good wall the teams should be always at same location (players can of course be close to each other or not)
when there is ice it should make a snow path for the wall


If anyone is willing to try you can use my code. I will try to make my map more random


"such a kind fellow!" ~ ķįŋğ_Ćħŗĩš_ĬĬ

Furby killer should be crowned leader of AOE forum ~ [SW_GD]Teutonic

pftq
Skirmisher
posted 06-16-06 08:55 PM EDT (US)     3 / 22       
Instead of a wall - try having triggers that move player units away from the center if they get too close.

Loop the trigger function so it forms a line.

I'm not 100% sure but I also seem to remember that you can use the Diplomacy effect to ally the two without ending the game.


Then after x minutes, disable these triggers (reverse the diplomacy) and you have your no rush.

My solution I think would work because there are no actual objects placed about.

[This message has been edited by pftq (edited 06-16-2006 @ 08:56 PM).]

schildpad
Skirmisher
posted 06-17-06 00:42 AM EDT (US)     4 / 22       
do those triggers work in multi player? I know at least some are disabled for multi player.

And the problem is that then you can wall enemy settler, steal all TPs at 1 side, build a wall arround there TC (at a certain distance), etc


"such a kind fellow!" ~ ķįŋğ_Ćħŗĩš_ĬĬ

Furby killer should be crowned leader of AOE forum ~ [SW_GD]Teutonic

pftq
Skirmisher
posted 06-17-06 01:19 AM EDT (US)     5 / 22       
Yes those triggers work. They are used counteless times in Fort Wars and several other maps.


Quote:

And the problem is that then you can wall enemy settler, steal all TPs at 1 side, build a wall arround there TC (at a certain distance), etc

How so if they can't cross the middle without triggers forcing them to turn back?

Should I create this map to show you what I mean? :P

[This message has been edited by pftq (edited 06-17-2006 @ 01:25 AM).]

schildpad
Skirmisher
posted 06-17-06 09:48 AM EDT (US)     6 / 22       
i believe you

Then why did they only disable some triggers? Why disable the unit create trigger? If i want to make an unfair map i can also just give me 10 factories, i dont need triggers for that.

I just checked your code, but i cant find it how i should do it when i dont have a srcObject/army. In fort wars units arent build from a rax.

So i am intrested how i should do that

and how i can make a wall of hot air balloons?


"such a kind fellow!" ~ ķįŋğ_Ćħŗĩš_ĬĬ

Furby killer should be crowned leader of AOE forum ~ [SW_GD]Teutonic

[This message has been edited by schildpad (edited 06-17-2006 @ 09:58 AM).]

pftq
Skirmisher
posted 06-17-06 03:32 PM EDT (US)     7 / 22       
Add me to MSN or AIM Messenger and we can chat.

ES didn't "disable" any triggers. They simply never bothered to properly create them so they work on ESO.

[This message has been edited by pftq (edited 06-17-2006 @ 07:09 PM).]

schildpad
Skirmisher
posted 06-17-06 03:36 PM EDT (US)     8 / 22       
added you

pff, just like modify proto unit trigger, my map would have been finished ages ago when that trigger would work for all stats


"such a kind fellow!" ~ ķįŋğ_Ćħŗĩš_ĬĬ

Furby killer should be crowned leader of AOE forum ~ [SW_GD]Teutonic

BilboBeutlin
Skirmisher
posted 06-17-06 04:48 PM EDT (US)     9 / 22       
my 2 ct.:
Forget the map-wide walls. Such could be done for a hand-made scenario. The game engine is too 'stupid' to build/arrange it correctly by program. In this case Sandy knows what he's talking about. *lol*
Additionally some other probs would appear.

The best way was to place impassable terrain between the player areas. They should get some connection ways which are currently jammed by indestructable objects eg. stones. These could be later removed by trigger.

pftq
Skirmisher
posted 06-17-06 04:57 PM EDT (US)     10 / 22       
LOL

You guys are going about this all too hard the way.


All you have to do is:

Army Deploy a line of Hot Air Balloons

Change to pathblocks.


THAT'S IT! Hot Air Balloons take no space and will therefore form a PERFECT line and changing them to pathblocks will keep the position.

Then apply diplomacy.


I have explained this to schildpad.

BilboBeutlin
Skirmisher
posted 06-17-06 05:09 PM EDT (US)     11 / 22       
I wouldn't rely on the (default) path blockers.
Eg. some are used in native camps .. these get area damage and are destroyed after a while.
KaSt0R
Skirmisher
posted 06-17-06 05:34 PM EDT (US)     12 / 22       
How can you attack a pathblock? Usually you can't see it.

I would use pathblocks or these native blockers.

BilboBeutlin
Skirmisher
posted 06-17-06 05:37 PM EDT (US)     13 / 22       
Well, I don't know what is used definately.
But fact is: after ~5 hits with a bombard ship in a native camp the nearby blocker is history.

PS
Just took a look in proto.
The Flag 'Invulnerable...' is obviously not enough.
I added in a test proto
NoProjectileDamage
NonCollideable
Then it worked

[This message has been edited by BilboBeutlin (edited 06-17-2006 @ 05:52 PM).]

pftq
Skirmisher
posted 06-17-06 06:06 PM EDT (US)     14 / 22       
You missed an important point.

Diplomacy.

Not only that but you can also apply addition HP points and make it invincible.

Must I continue?

BilboBeutlin
Skirmisher
posted 06-17-06 06:10 PM EDT (US)     15 / 22       
ahem .. perhaps don't think I'm a fool

The best diplomacy doesn't work if some important flags are forgotten.

KaSt0R
Skirmisher
posted 06-17-06 06:24 PM EDT (US)     16 / 22       
But you can add enough HP to the blockers with "modify protounit" ... so you can't destroy them!
BilboBeutlin
Skirmisher
posted 06-17-06 06:39 PM EDT (US)     17 / 22       
Oh KaSt0r, really .. also the greatest stock of HP is down after some while - unless you add steadily.
Ok, you have some 'stock' - I assume a 32bit signed integer for HP. But perhaps otherwise restricted - I never tested extreme values

Well, last not least - I don't bother about such objections .. try out. I merely noted some facts which should be respected.

pftq
Skirmisher
posted 06-17-06 06:47 PM EDT (US)     18 / 22       

Quote:

The best diplomacy doesn't work if some important flags are forgotten.

Nah I meant there wouldn't be any attacking in the first place Hence no splash damage from anyone. Used in Fort Wars and works great

[This message has been edited by pftq (edited 06-17-2006 @ 06:48 PM).]

KaSt0R
Skirmisher
posted 06-17-06 06:48 PM EDT (US)     19 / 22       
But you can't directly shoot at those blocks, so it doesn't matter. I'm sure these HP will hold until the peactime ends.

Nobody lets his men stand at the blocks to be shot by the enemy to let the blocks be killed o.O

BilboBeutlin
Skirmisher
posted 06-17-06 07:03 PM EDT (US)     20 / 22       
Yeah .. ok - try it .. I'm in doubt, it would work like imagined. At the first view - surely. Most probably not in extreme debit.
There are some 'pitfalls' inside the AoE3 code/datas which let me assume, these imaginations aren't successful without modding (sooner or later).
Anyway: I didn't want to blow the tread. I'll remain silent now.
pftq
Skirmisher
posted 06-17-06 07:08 PM EDT (US)     21 / 22       

Quote:

At the first view - surely. Most probably not in extreme debit.
There are some 'pitfalls' inside the AoE3 code/datas which let me assume, these imaginations aren't successful without modding (sooner or later).

It's not imagined. They're used in Fort Wars. lol sorry I'm not trying to get at you or something - but I'm just insisting that it WILL work fine because I've used it myself in older versions of Fort Wars.

[This message has been edited by pftq (edited 06-17-2006 @ 07:09 PM).]

schildpad
Skirmisher
posted 06-18-06 03:11 AM EDT (US)     22 / 22       

Quote:

also the greatest stock of HP is down after some while


current wall gets 10 million HP. 1 hour long fireing directly with 20 mortars is no problem for it, so then some indirect fire also wont matter.

But i will try the balloons and changing them to path blocks


"such a kind fellow!" ~ ķįŋğ_Ćħŗĩš_ĬĬ

Furby killer should be crowned leader of AOE forum ~ [SW_GD]Teutonic

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