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Age of Empires III Heaven » Forums » Strategy Central » Way to balance Native Rushes?
Topic Subject:Way to balance Native Rushes?
posted 01-17-07 11:25 AM EDT (US)         
Hey all, this is just an idea that i am throwing out there.

I am currently a major playing on TWC and have noticed something that i think would help to maybe balance the rush a little bit.
As a british i find it incredible difficult to stop a native rush. And i think that i have figured out why.

As Brits i build my forward up with the rest of my team mates. I generally age up around the same time as everyone else, and i am very limited on how fast i can get my units out. I build my barracks, i wait for 5 units to come out.

Now the trouble is, the Natives generally have their forward up before htey finish aging, so not only do they get to start training up 5 men almost instantly, they ALSO have their barracks as a place where home city shipments can be sent too.

It is very difficult for me to be able to stop this, becaucse i cannot change how fast my units are training ( not in the early stages of the game at least) and can only get 5 men out while, they are most likely already working on their second batch of 5, and then out pops either 10 maces, 7 aennas, 6 puma, etc. right out from their barracks!

So perhaps they should not be able to send homeshipments to their war huts?

just an idea...

[This message has been edited by JonNoName (edited 01-17-2007 @ 11:25 AM).]

posted 01-17-07 11:42 AM EDT (US)     1 / 10       
i see ur point but isnt what ur saying the same for russia?
u just have to find a way with ur civ to over come it
and it wouldnt be fair taking off their shipment drop off at war huts because thats whats included in paying the extra 50 wood, as well as an attack.
i realise iroqois can have this for free

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Mine and Micky's OPness
posted 01-17-07 08:13 PM EDT (US)     2 / 10       
iroq is the only one a bit oped since they get to start the game with a free warhut to place anywhere they choose thus being able to establich a forward base without any worry. Then generally they get a 2nd free warhut upon aging up giving them the ability to amass troops even faster and tie up more of the map.
If russia started with a free bh wagon in age 1 it might make russia a bit more livable but lets face it. russia doesnt even get a 2 bh shipment in age 2 like the natives do. Russia is so far below the natives in age 2 its kinda sad.
posted 01-18-07 02:07 AM EDT (US)     3 / 10       
i wouldnt fix something that isnt broken. by suggesting a way to "balance" native rushes, you are implying that they are currently too powerful...however if that was the case i think we'd see more of it. natives are used commonly but they are also still somewhat novel, when that wears off their useage will probably drop some. in most games ive seen and played, the european civs stack up just fine against the native civs (unless its like germany or russia but they dont stack up against anything), nerfing part of the native rush would not be a good idea when its already balanced.

as such, i cant talk about ways to balance something thats already balanced...

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posted 01-18-07 03:05 PM EDT (US)     4 / 10       
muhahahaha i hate serves you right!

just look @ it this way...if natives don't take you out in the first 7-10 min, then you will win. easy as that. there is no way to keep up with a brit manor boom! not to mention the crazy resource gathering capacity of euro civs

[This message has been edited by far_easterner (edited 01-18-2007 @ 03:09 PM).]

posted 01-18-07 03:15 PM EDT (US)     5 / 10       


just look @ it this way...if natives don't take you out in the first 7-10 min, then you will win. easy as that. there is no way to keep up with a brit manor boom! not to mention the crazy resource gathering capacity of euro civs

Fertility dance can compete without too much difficulty..

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posted 01-18-07 08:17 PM EDT (US)     6 / 10       
Ive played the Brits and the Aztecs and i came to the conclusion that the manor boom is great for the mid game.. but you will get to 100 peasants way faster with the fertility dance. As a british player ill out boom you around the 12min mark, but then later game.. the natives will even up and most likely hit 100 peasants before the Brits do.

Id take the Manor boom over the Fertility dance any day!

posted 01-18-07 08:45 PM EDT (US)     7 / 10       
IMO brits > all civs in boom up to about 70 vills... at that point i aztecs and ports would catch up, with iroq and sioux not too far behind

of course this is all if there is no attacking/defending to do... which is rarely the case in sup games

Anyways... the only problem I see with native rushes is the iroqs free travois that can build a warhut... they just need to disable that function for travoises in discovery age

collecting wood and building one as a native slows down their colonial time; giving you enough time to have some defense before they attack

one more thing; ever consider sticking your starting rax as europeans in your base rather than going for FB? that way he has to attack where you also have a HC drop point (your other problem listed)

Currently retired from AOE3... moved on to LOTRO... yeah an MMO... but a fun one!
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Hikaro Takayama
posted 01-18-07 08:45 PM EDT (US)     8 / 10       
I have found a sort of way around the Native early rush, but it relies on a little luck to pull off...

I usually set up my forward base around a Native village, and I age up with the 1 OP wagon, and build the OP next to the native village and set that as my HC shipment area. I then start training native warriors (I always claim at least 1 native TP site during the first era, usually the one I'm using as my forward, and I'll have sent the ADV TP card before building it if I'm lv 25 or above), while I send the 2 OP card. Once I get a RAX, a saloon, stable and other necesary buildings up (along with a wall) I'm usually the one doing the rushing (or at least killing their rush armies as they make a desperate attempt to take out my FWD) If I've sent the ADV TP card, then it gets worse for them, since my TP acts as a fourth OP.....

I pulled this maneuver off to a devastating effect against two native and 1 Euro player on a California map, but part of that was that the Forward Klamath village just happened to be on top of a high cliff, the entrance of which was not only narrow, but also facing TOWARDS my base and AWAY from theirs. I had to struggle for a bit, and lost 1 OP (my Brit city is not LV 25 yet, so I didn't have the support from my TP via the ADV TP card) while I fought off both the Iro and Aztecs armies... However, my gambit did buy me enough time to send my age 2 musketeer HC card, send two more settlers up to finish my forward base (I lost the first two in the initial fighting), train more Klamath Riflemen and allowed enough time for my two teammates to build up big enough armies to hit the enemy towns pretty hard as we advanced to the Fortress age.....

Basically, IMO, the key is the OP wagon politician, two OP wagon card and ample scouting to determine the best place for setting up a FWD base (I couldn't have found a better Forward location unless I created a map in the editor, but if my team hadn't done some rapid scouting, I'd have never been able to secure it before the enemy).

ZION_Dawg: Know what's worse than using the starting Travois to build a WH right off the bat? I use mine to build a fire pit, and set two villagers almost right off the bat to doing a founders dance, allowing me to get at least 3 more travois before I hit the second age....

[This message has been edited by Hikaro Takayama (edited 01-18-2007 @ 08:49 PM).]

posted 01-18-07 11:22 PM EDT (US)     9 / 10       
Zion, yes of course i have considered this, but in most team games.. say in 3 vs 3.. everyone always wants to put their forward further up. Going on the defense is tough because then you lose map control.
James Lock
posted 01-19-07 01:21 PM EDT (US)     10 / 10       
Try using minor natives. They train fairly fast and the main native civs can't counter them as easily as europeans can (using spies).

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And special thanks to smashnbash for making it.
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