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Topic Subject: Guns and Biers
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posted 04-18-07 07:00 PM EDT (US)   
Intro

This strategy was originally done after TWC 1.03 fixed some german bugs. Today german is top tier so few are looking at alternatives to the normal xbow rush or semi-ff. with FP balancing things a bit, this strategy will beome more useful.

So here I present you a German Saloon Merc based strategy Ė Guns and Biers.

German Mercenary Uniqueness

Mercenary Combat card boosts a huge 20% to all mercenaries. Most donít realise how powerful it is, if you consider mercenaries are equivalent of FU imperial units, this 20% is added to their fullest current stats, that is equivalent of +25% of normal unitís stats.

On top of that, German has more mercenaries in shipments than anyone else, allowing them to make the most use of their mercs.

How you play out this strategy, greatly depends on which merc you get. Best case scenario is getting 2 decent mercs of different type. Worst case is getting 2 useless ones. In between there are many possible combinations, sometimes you may get 2 mercs of the same type thus one will become redundant.





Game Flow

Standard age1 with 17~18 vils, age up to 400w. Chop wood for a TP in transition. Build a saloon + 2 houses with 400 age up wood, ship 3 SW. Fixed BO stops here.

You now check out the saloon mercs, and you will have to make some decisions, because the mercs you get will affect whether you should get merc combat card and whether you should take on this strategy, you also have to adjust your card order accordingly.

Anyway, the ideal situation is reaching fortress reasonably fast, at around 7:00 using Exile prince, or 8:20 using Marksman, with 100 pop provided by 3 houses (with palatine settlement as 3rd card), a good economy of 8 SW + 12~14 villager, and a shipment ready.

Your fortress game depends on what your opponent does. Your goals are:

1, send merc combat card to boost your mercs as soon as you get a breath, usually first or second fortress card, kill his army cost effectively.

2, establish map control because you need mines, possible put down another TC and boom away.

I often get a market in transition to age3, research gold mining and 2 wood chopping, then build outposts around mines. Another way is ship 1000wood early on and build TC + tower with them, this way it saves a lot of the research cost early on, allows you to get a few more units. Or you can keep heavy pressure on him by put every shipment and resource into units, attack him constantly so he can not afford to raid you back.

you will have to make barrack or stable to produce units that saloon did not provide. in most cases it is skirmishers, uhlans, or WW.

With good judgement and combat skills, helped by a bit of luck, you will win the game before both side get to late industrial Ė thatís where mercs lose their edge.


Strategy points


1, whether to commit to this strat--

the best way is to first rank mercs from most useful to least useful (from a german's point of view):

(unfortunatelu Elmiti and Mamelukes are no longer available in age3)

Highlander, 10, not only the undisputed best HI in the game, it makes up for german's lack of muskteer type unit.

Jaeger, 9, german dont get skirm upgrade cards, so 20% boosted jaeger is definitely worth getting

Swiss pike, 8, one of the most cost effect mercs, cheaper and better than dopp.

Liíl Bombard, 6, you save 300w for not having to make a foundry, they also kill cavalry well, very multi-purpose.

Hackapell, 5, not normally my perfered merc cav, but with merc combat they kill skirmishers, Wakina, FP, yumi, gurhka, arq, ckn and unupgraded pikeman in 1 hit, this is very significant when these are amongst the most common unit you will be facing.

Stradiot, 4, although normally slightly better than hackapell, i rank it lower because it donesnt standard out, and can easily be substituted by upgraded uhlans, 2 vet uhlans is quite similar 1 stradiot in over all effectiveness.

Landsknecht, 3, too slow to be useful.

Black rider, Manchu, 2, as good as they are in general, they are not useful to germans, WW is just as good as them and gone cost pure gold.


Corsair, 2, these guys should really be considered as cavalry - fast, good melee damage, low siege, only difference is they are countered by different type of units. most of their jobs can be handled by the free uhlans. and they are not good enough unless you get the merc combat boost.

Ninja, 1, completely worthless on the battle field, maybe good for raiding due to good siege.

Fusilier, 0, the only use for this unit is raiding, but when loaded with free uhlans, i dont think you will lack raiding forces.

you add the value of the 2 mercs you get and go from there.

> 10, it is very worthwell commiting to this strat,

5< + >10, it maybe worthwell but you have to think twice, number of avaliable mines and opponent civ choice could be deciding factors.

< 5, it is not worth doing.


2, you have to decide on build order based on what mercs you get. For example if you get 2 good mercs like jaeger and swiss pike, it is very good setup, you want to ship palatine settlement and go to fortress with Exile prince, because you can make good infantry so you donít need 6 free skirms and you wont need wood for barrack, just make them as soon as you get to fortress. If you donít get ranged infantry merc, you may want to get those 6 free skirms, then you want to age up with marksman. If you get 2 average mercs, such as BR + Stradiot, you may still go a head but you donít want to focus too much on the mercs. You may want to rely on normal units more, You may want to ship 700G or 700W next, go to fortress ASAP and build barrack + stable. When you get 2 crap mercs, you will want to forgo this strat altogether, switch to a conventional German FF, which is very possible as your only loss is 200 wood on the saloon and used up a card slot that you are not going to send anymore(merc ombat).


3, Theoritically the best time to send merc combat is right before the first big battle of your mercs. sending too early means you missed out on eco boost, too late means your mercs are not as effiecient.

in reality it is very difficult, you do not know when the battle will take place and when you will have next shipment.

you just have to make judgements about the situation and calculate your chances.

against aggrasive FF, send it ASAP; against boomers you can afford send it after 1000W, and maybe even 1000G; against rushers who are likely to still be in age2 ammasing an army of LI, you may want to get 9 uhlans and combined with some existing units, kill off his army before it gets too large.


4, XP treasure always comes first, 80 XP means 2 SW arrives 40 seconds faster, which gives extra 160 VS, which is over 120 food, 3 SW could arrive 40 seconds faster, that is 180 food. So pick it over 80 food next time you see them.

5, German is very rush-able, and everyone knows, you want to scare them off rushing, and should they rush, you want to be prepared. To do this you should keep cards like Teutonic TC, 2 outpost, improved buildings, 9 xbows in your deck.

6, keep 2~3 plantation upgrades in your deck, get wood chopping upgrades when you can, you have to be prepared to use plantation heavily in late fortress, because you cant always get many mines.

7, obviously it is almost impossible to do on maps without Trade Route, as you wonít get enough XP for the shipments.

8, personally I find allowing some idle time and go to colonial ASAP is a good choice at times, German colonial economy is quite good, you can afford 1 less vil, but sometimes that 20 seconds faster colonial could save you from a rush.

9, in games where you get 300 food and 200 wood start, it is possible to chop wood, build TP first, then first house and keep vil production constant, it will take a little practice to get right, but it is definitely worthwhile.



Deck


Replay

all replays were done way back and do not work anymore, so i took them off my webspace, therfore the links dont work anymore.

this game was against a french, from his micro and control, i'd say he is around 1900~ish, no clear mistake, correct unit choice etc.

I was actually on the losing end, the game lagged which made it quite hard to countrol my units, first it was him stealling my 150 wood, i saw it coming but by there was a good half a second delay before my explorer moved forward; then lost 3 corsairs because I saw his 10+ skirms a tab too late to pull back, 600 gold down in the drain.

however you be amazed how powerful was the merc combat boosted hackapells, 145 dmg killing skirms in 1 hit, 3 of them wiped out a whole army. i think the lag helped me here a little bit, he was not able to micro his skirms against my hackapells to the fullest.

eitherway he realised the best unit to make against this combo, but he didnt find enough res for it...

we both tried to take map control, he massed normal army with his OP french eco and I massed my OP merc army with my OP saloon....


this game was against an iro, his ESO id is currently 1900~1950 region. his deck indicated a GHFI, but he turned it into a rush.

not the best rush, but this recording is to show you how to beat a rush with this strat. in all honesty saloon did NOT play a big part at all, partly due to the suckiness of the outlaws on this map and my mistake of sending 3 SW over palatine settlement.

this game was on painted desert, one of the hardest map to do this strat due to lack of trade route. this dutch did 3 bank semi FF with a small raid, possible made that army in fear of me rushing.

interestingly he employed the same saloon merc strategy, except he did not go for the merc bombard and his corsairs were considerably weaker.

I did not go for palatine settelement, the reason for that was I needed every last XP i could find, so i opt to send 1000 wood on housing instead, which in turn gives me 200 XP.

against a sioux on bayou

i used this deck because it had cav HP, i thought i needed good cavalry against wakina, so i must go for uhlans.

luckily i got highlanders, they slaughtered RR and Axe.

[This message has been edited by ultimitsu (edited 04-03-2009 @ 07:55 PM).]

Replies:
posted 04-18-07 07:12 PM EDT (US)     1 / 53  
You should probably remove all references to LI in your [green]German Mercenary Uniqueness[/green] section, as LI only describes two units: the Coyote Man and the Eagle Knight. For proof, check out MNBob's unit chart here: here

ESO: 3snrocks

Quote of the Day: Experts opinions can't be taken as valid, because they arn't legitimate.

[This message has been edited by Threesnrocks (edited 04-18-2007 @ 07:14 PM).]

posted 04-18-07 07:51 PM EDT (US)     2 / 53  
Please don't take offense, it's just a question I'm wondering.

Didn't you quit playing ESO? I heard somewhere that you did and if you did how do you know if this works or not?
if you do play, how about some recs?


*WINDOWS CRITICAL ERROR 19891126*
Product ID: Ossian Discontinued
Contact your network admin for more details
about this special edition of player...

Allthough cetans are darker, did you know that if you read the word 'cetan' as a dutch word, that you get the same sound as when reading 'satan' in english.-Furby Killer
posted 04-18-07 08:26 PM EDT (US)     3 / 53  
Didn't you quit playing ESO? I heard somewhere that you did and if you did how do you know if this works or not?
if you do play, how about some recs?


why do I have to play on ESO to know if something works?

there are plenty of of recordings in my last two strats - ottoman NWNT and british anti-ff. I said I will provide some for this one once I get them.

posted 04-18-07 10:26 PM EDT (US)     4 / 53  
Wouldnt this strategy be incredibly vulnerable to Spies/Agents/Assassins ? I doubt it would take long for most people to notice heavy use of Mercs - even heavier than usual for Germany - and a quick look at your deck would sway their mind to ditch a conventional army for a legion of Spies.

Would it be worth having a conventional army still in order to take on those spies?


The Optimist believes that we live in the best possible world. The Pesimist believes this to be true.
posted 04-18-07 10:54 PM EDT (US)     5 / 53  
This strat is very powerful if you get the good mercs. I have actually been doing something like this for a while. Some tips I have are: Mapuche Natives are always worth it for the -10% gold cost tech and if you get little bombards, a great combo is bombards+WW+13 shipped jaegers if you didn't get them at the saloon. With AA upgrades, Cav Combat, and Mercenary Comabt, you have a very deadly combo.

I won a recent game on GP by using 13 jaegers, 18 WW, 2 bombards, and 6+8 skirms with what ever Uhlans I had.

Wouldnt this strategy be incredibly vulnerable to Spies/Agents/Assassins ? I doubt it would take long for most people to notice heavy use of Mercs - even heavier than usual for Germany - and a quick look at your deck would sway their mind to ditch a conventional army for a legion of Spies.

Would it be worth having a conventional army still in order to take on those spies?

You would think so, but with the explorer disabling stealth, ranged mercs actually own spies. Kinda like how massed muskets beat jaguar prowler knights.

+----------+
| PLEASE |
| DO NOT |
| FEED THE |
| TROLLS |
+----------+

[This message has been edited by TheRomans (edited 04-18-2007 @ 11:02 PM).]

posted 04-18-07 11:46 PM EDT (US)     6 / 53  
spies are pretyy useless. several mercs can beat them on cost. but your uhlans absolutely slaughter them.

Assasin ans Agents are much harder to handle, but fortunately NO ONE keeps them in their deck these days.

posted 04-19-07 00:10 AM EDT (US)     7 / 53  
I only tried it one and got Elmeti+Stradiots, so had a lot of decent cav with uhlans.

The strat takes a while to get rolling. The TP is absoultely necessary because I forgot to (haven't played Germans in a bit and it was unrated). Ended up working decently, you just need to get other mines quickly,


[][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][]
[][][][][][][][][][] Stonewall J [][][][][][][][][][][]
[][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][]
posted 04-19-07 01:59 AM EDT (US)     8 / 53  
Mercs are very effective and I've used them sometimes too. The only downside of them is the chance element. I'd say the best combo is Jšger+Highlander, backed up by your falcs.
posted 04-19-07 02:09 AM EDT (US)     9 / 53  
Seems very interesting.

Just a question, how difficult is it to get an army going. I mean mercs train slowly and form only one building, can you get a reasonable force quick enough?

Wouldnt this strategy be incredibly vulnerable to Spies/Agents/Assassins ? I doubt it would take long for most people to notice heavy use of Mercs - even heavier than usual for Germany - and a quick look at your deck would sway their mind to ditch a conventional army for a legion of Spies.

Would it be worth having a conventional army still in order to take on those spies?

as mentioned before agents and assassines would be a problem. But spies are expensive and generally dont perform as well as their stats lead them to be. Like mercs they only have church to be trained from which means you wont be able to get a legion of spies, and they die pretty easily to normal units which can come from shipments if need be.

posted 04-19-07 02:51 AM EDT (US)     10 / 53  
I have been trying to some how fit the gold trickle card into this strat as it could come in handy, especially during a rush. But during a rush is the only time it actually out preformed SW because SW were garrisoned. It seems by the time Germany could afford to send gold trickle, better cards, such as plantation upgrade cards, could be played.

+----------+
| PLEASE |
| DO NOT |
| FEED THE |
| TROLLS |
+----------+
posted 04-19-07 08:58 AM EDT (US)     11 / 53  
this game was against a french, from his micro and control, i'd say he is around 1900~ish, no clear mistake, correct unit choice etc.

I was actually on the losing end, the game lagged which made it quite hard to control my units, first it was him stealing my 150 wood, i saw it coming but by there was a good half a second delay before my explorer moved forward; then lost 3 corsairs because I saw his 10+ skirms a tab too late to pull back, 600 gold down in the drain.

however you be amazed how powerful was the merc combat boosted hackapells, 145 dmg killing skirms in 1 hit, 3 of them wiped out a whole army. i think the lag helped me here a little bit, he was not able to micro his skirms against my hackapells to the fullest.

eitherway he realised the best unit to make against this combo, but he didnt find enough res for it...

we both tried to take map control, he massed normal army with his OP french eco and I massed my OP merc army with my OP saloon....


=======

Just a question, how difficult is it to get an army going. I mean mercs train slowly and form only one building, can you get a reasonable force quick enough?

this depends on how does your opponent play.

if he puts on pressure early, you will have to ship "moneyworth" units early on over res and upgrades, you will postpone res upgrades, so it will take a while to get the merc army togather.

if he is the kind that accumulates his army first, you will be able to afford gather upgrades and merc upgrades, then you can have a decent army fairly quickly. remember your merc units = roughly 2 veteran units, so a batch of 5 = 2 batches of vetenran.

check out the replay.

I have been trying to some how fit the gold trickle card into this strat as it could come in handy, especially during a rush. But during a rush is the only time it actually out preformed SW because SW were garrisoned. It seems by the time Germany could afford to send gold trickle, better cards, such as plantation upgrade cards, could be played.

i find gold trickle useless for german.

first off 2 SW is just way too good to pass. so you certainly dont ever use gold trickle as first card, secondly german dont have vil count issues like ottoman does, lastly gold trickle gives 75 gold per minute, while that is 3 janissary's worth, it cant even give you a uhlan, it just doesnt give german enough boost to justify.

the only time one may send gold trickle, is if stuck in age2 forever and run out of other cards, that only happens once in a blue moon.

[This message has been edited by ultimitsu (edited 04-19-2007 @ 08:59 AM).]

posted 04-19-07 10:32 AM EDT (US)     12 / 53  
I don't even have it in my deck. EVERY age 2 card seems to be better.
posted 04-19-07 11:03 AM EDT (US)     13 / 53  
I'm glad that someone's taking a look at this card, but what I'm interested in is how this strat can best fit in with Germany's shipment problem. Germany gets so few shipments and they are spaced so far apart that I think it'd be hard to decide when to actually send this Mercenary Combat card and the strat doesn't seem to give any advice on how to time that shipment. I think that a lot of people are aware of the card and I've seen it used a few times. But people struggle with the question of when to actually send it without causing themselves a lot of problems.

if you consider mercenaries are equivalent of FU imperial units, this 20% is added to their fullest current stats, that is equivalent of +40% of normal unitís stats.
I see where you're going with this, but I think the math is not quite correct. Mercenaries are better than normal units but they're also more costly, so you could theoretically have more of the normal units. So I don't think it's accurate to say it's a +40% boost. +20% is already extremely good, anyway!

Strategies:
- BWKiC - A British Fast Fortress strategy
- The Aztec Scout Slam- An Envoy Rush, Native-Style
posted 04-19-07 11:09 AM EDT (US)     14 / 53  
Well, as most Mercenaries are around cost effective with Veteran units, then I'd say they get upgraded on the "Veteran" level, like Cuirassiers and Halberdiers

ESO - Walker

>> Napoleonic Era --> Visit their Homepage!
"Holy *****" > Thunder (Ensemble Studios)

Retired from AoE3. But I do play AoK HD in Steam now and then.
posted 04-19-07 11:10 AM EDT (US)     15 / 53  
I would ditch gold trickle and put in dance halls, the ronin with improved mercs slaughter. Great strat though, I'm going to use it most of the time. It also has Outlaw Defence built in.

"Apparently, arguing for the right to do something no-one wants to do is the lifeblood of HG." - TaylorFlame

"Whatever happened, BFME2H did it better. No Exceptions." - EnemyofJupitor
posted 04-19-07 04:57 PM EDT (US)     16 / 53  
I'm glad that someone's taking a look at this card, but what I'm interested in is how this strat can best fit in with Germany's shipment problem. Germany gets so few shipments and they are spaced so far apart that I think it'd be hard to decide when to actually send this Mercenary Combat card and the strat doesn't seem to give any advice on how to time that shipment. I think that a lot of people are aware of the card and I've seen it used a few times. But people struggle with the question of when to actually send it without causing themselves a lot of problems.

the shipment problem is fixed by having a TP early, it is a must, or else the strat cant work.

It is hard for me to put down in words when exactly should you send merc combat, generally first fortress card, so your first batch of mercs are already boosted, but there are situations where you cant afford doing this, and sending merc combat too early will kill yourself.

I added that bit in now.


Mercenaries are better than normal units but they're also more costly, so you could theoretically have more of the normal units. So I don't think it's accurate to say it's a +40% boost. +20% is already extremely good, anyway!

you are actually right about this.

I changed it, it is closer to 25%.

I would ditch gold trickle and put in dance halls, the ronin with improved mercs slaughter. Great strat though, I'm going to use it most of the time. It also has Outlaw Defence built in.

problem with dancing hall, in my expereince, is that you dont fidn right time for it, and ronin is inferior to highlanders and swiss pikeman, also to warwagon in overall effectiveness. for dancing hall, i could send cavalry combat whcih boosts my WW for a good 15%, helps me not just in fortress but late game when mercs lose effective as well.

posted 04-19-07 07:41 PM EDT (US)     17 / 53  
I defeated 2 more people using this strat, an iro and an ottoman. It is indeed powerful.

The iro tried to turtle up on yukon, WHs didn't work so well against Swiss Pikes at the saloon. FPs got owned by 13 shipped jaegers+10 more built. Uhlans.....well they are just Uhlans.

The otto wasn't a Rusher or FFer, more of agressive boom type. He hit me with a lot of jans and later hussars. Jans got owned left and right by shipped BR and jaegers and by built Elmetis and Stradiots. I later took care of his Hussars by using shipped BR and some trained doppels. Both ended well for me.

On another note, Privateers are considered Mercenary meaning they get benefitted by the merc combat card. Too bad germany only gets 2 in colonial, water control ftw!


Ulti, what deck would you suggest for a water map with this strat?


+----------+
| PLEASE |
| DO NOT |
| FEED THE |
| TROLLS |
+----------+
posted 04-20-07 01:44 AM EDT (US)     18 / 53  
this game was against an iro, his ESO id is currently 1900~1950 region. his deck indicated a GHFI, but he turned it into a rush.

not the best rush, but this recording is to show you how to beat a rush with this strat. in all honesty saloon did NOT play a big part at all, partly due to the suckiness of the outlaws on this map and my mistake of sending 3 SW over palatine settlement.

========



Ulti, what deck would you suggest for a water map with this strat?

unfortunately, like you already noticed, poor german only gets a age2 2 privateer shipment, not worth sending in age3 and doesnt get the boost in age2.

my suggestion is dont bother with it, keep a plantation +20% card instead, use the usual 2 caravel card and the 1 frigrate card.

posted 04-20-07 08:21 AM EDT (US)     19 / 53  
I disagree, i am a german player and the 2 Privateer shipment is very helpful when u r scouting enemy waters and caravels are 2 weak to handle anything above a a caravel unless they are in large packs. The 2 privateers also serve as good dock area guards when u have dispatched ur fleet to go kick some ass and the enemy has sent a fleet of their own to blow the crap out of ur docks.


The privateers also have that nifty little broadside attack with their like 6 guns.
So the privateers are no where near useless to the Germans.


May God have mercy upon my enemies, because I won't.
- General George Patton Jr
posted 04-20-07 01:19 PM EDT (US)     20 / 53  
Caravals also have broadside, slightly less damage than that of a privateer but they can fish if you don't run into any opposing boats.

All privateers are are souped up caravals that cost coin, just like any other merc unit, personally if I knew for a fact that they were on the water I'd use privateers but otherwise caravals would be a better choice.

Then again you could use the 500(?) coin the 2 privateers costed and make another caraval.


Proud Citizen of Sovietcanuckistan
posted 04-20-07 02:09 PM EDT (US)     21 / 53  
I would ditch gold trickle and put in dance halls, the ronin with improved mercs slaughter. Great strat though, I'm going to use it most of the time. It also has Outlaw Defence built in.

dance hall + unique church (+ advanced arsenal) = fast rohins?

That would be pretty good...in theory

[This message has been edited by The_1st_king (edited 04-20-2007 @ 02:12 PM).]

posted 04-20-07 02:21 PM EDT (US)     22 / 53  
problem with dancing hall, in my expereince, is that you dont fidn right time for it, and ronin is inferior to highlanders and swiss pikeman, also to warwagon in overall effectiveness.

I find ronin much better that Swiss Pikes when I can afford gold and pop. Late game I would rather have Ronin.


"Apparently, arguing for the right to do something no-one wants to do is the lifeblood of HG." - TaylorFlame

"Whatever happened, BFME2H did it better. No Exceptions." - EnemyofJupitor
posted 04-20-07 03:52 PM EDT (US)     23 / 53  
@Catabre

Right:

[quote]Text[/quote]

Wrong:

[quote]Text[quote]


ESO - Walker

>> Napoleonic Era --> Visit their Homepage!
"Holy *****" > Thunder (Ensemble Studios)

Retired from AoE3. But I do play AoK HD in Steam now and then.
posted 04-20-07 04:45 PM EDT (US)     24 / 53  
Txs

"Apparently, arguing for the right to do something no-one wants to do is the lifeblood of HG." - TaylorFlame

"Whatever happened, BFME2H did it better. No Exceptions." - EnemyofJupitor
posted 04-20-07 06:36 PM EDT (US)     25 / 53  
I disagree, i am a german player and the 2 Privateer shipment is very helpful when u r scouting enemy waters and caravels are 2 weak to handle anything above a a caravel unless they are in large packs. The 2 privateers also serve as good dock area guards when u have dispatched ur fleet to go kick some ass and the enemy has sent a fleet of their own to blow the crap out of ur docks.

Like LordKivlov already pointed out, for the cost of 500 gold, you could have got another caravel, or use that towards FF and get frigerate, which owns them all.

the only time one may want to send privateer, is after clicked aging up, and used 2 corsair + 1 privateer politician, then send merc combat as first fortress card, this way you have 3 boosted merc ships 40 seconds after hitting fortress.

but how often do you have 500 gold and 1 shipment ready after click age up, then another one ready right when hitting fortress?


dance hall + unique church (+ advanced arsenal) = fast rohins?

actually I just realised that german has the least reason to get ronins.

for similar cost, you can get heavily boosted fast dopps, 2 veteran dopp with several upgrades = 1 ronin, yet cost less and can be further upgraded later.

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