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Topic Subject: the JAMM
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posted 10-28-07 00:11 AM EDT (US)   
Introducing the Japanese Ashigaru Musketeer Mangle

*edit- fixed 2 shrine card

Heres a little strategy ive been doing which has led me to above moderate success, and will give you japanese civ players building blocks on what to do.

This strategy can get you 15 AMs by around 6:15, with a stable and barracks, as well as a decent enough economy. so why not check it out!

[JPEG, (153.00 KB)]

Discovery Age

  • Task 3 vills to berries, 2 to food crates, 1 to wood crates (edit). when you collect 2 food crates sent them to wood

  • Explore for wood treasures, use explorer to fwd build a shrine if you feel necessary, as well as building one back at home next to starting hunts

  • place cherry orchard behind tc, so that it either shields your vills on the mine, or something of that sort.

  • I normally ship 300 wood instead of 2 vills (i realize the gather rate of shrines) at this point, due to the housing as well as the ability to place on unused hunts so far. Its usefull not having to remember to build houses while in the midst of battle, or houseing yourself. possibly the explorer card if deemed good enough treasures

  • save next shipment for Daimyo in age II

  • Age up with the Tori Gates and around 14-15 vills; move 4 or 5 to coin, 6 on berries, 2 on wood, and 2-3 on wonder. shrine gather on food, and TC gather point on food. continue with villie making.

Colonial Age

  • use your age up travois to build a barracks in a foreward location, send a daimyo ASAP

  • continue to build shrines with your explorers near hunts

  • next shipment is 5 musketeers, to your daimyo who should train 5, as well as the barracks created from the travois

  • use your daimyo to train hand cavalry when needed, naganitas pwn LI.

  • ship 4 vills for an economic edge, 5 yumis for increased firepower vs HI, 4 shrines for more pop and map control or 5 musks for the extra push

  • Heavanly kami should be sent if you feel you need the extra boom potential

  • If your rush failed, or you have the advantage but just cant finish him off, go fort with the Shogunate

  • the daimyo and xp will help you get more shipments out and train more troops.

Fortress Age

  • Mass up Musketeers and flaming arrows that you have shipped or built

  • Sit back and lay waste to their town with ~4-6 Flaming arrows guarded by 30-50 musketeers

Well, thats basically it. This is by no means a follow all build order, so if you find (which i know you will) something to improve, just post it up or any thoughts! Yoi!

it's also possible, in order to get out units sooner, to build the wonder at around ten vills. you should have two or three on it, with constant vills comming out of the tc. If you do this one, age with the Toshogu shrine, and put it near some hunts thats not too far from your base. you'll need to put 3 or 4 vills on wood and send 1 of those or two to build the fwd rax. in this case, ship 5 musks instead of 1 daimyo, and you'll end up with 9-10 AMs with your explorers by about 5:50-6:00. problem with it? your eco wont be too great for vill+ AM + shrine production. after the first AM card, ship 4 vills to catch up.

Here is a recorded game against the computer where it seems that i'm about 15-30 seconds later than i thought it would be. ahh well there can be minor changes that will make it up to its decreed time frame.

Proud winner of the FFA Winter Round '07!
[Judgε][Epic Thread]
My Vods:[One] [Two][Three][Four]
"with all the bling on a mandsabar you could win the game by paying the enemy to resign." IL

[This message has been edited by Cookiecrisp13 (edited 01-05-2008 @ 00:07 AM).]

posted 10-28-07 00:35 AM EDT (US)     1 / 31  
i dont quite have tad yet but ive played the demo and seen the japs muskets stats and in colonial, its 26, which is actually wat any european muskets would be if upgraded to veteran. i was trying to make up a strat to use with them but nice job sounds like it could work.

quoted from jafit talking smack about ender in regards to the abus nerf: "He's probably in a fetal position on the floor holding an action figure abus gun."
posted 10-28-07 09:43 AM EDT (US)     2 / 31  
Very nicely written strat, I love all the pictures!

3 questions/thoughts:
- Which wonder would you go age 3 with when possibily is given? Would you rather stay age2?
- I noticed the 1 CO-card for age1. Get the 2 CO-card for age2 instead.
- I think you should include the consulate right after the beginning of fighting. The consulate itself only costs 100w and can bring you at least 3-4 military units at 7-8mins (I think) if you have the isolation avaiable. (or you could get the ability to produce 10 units from raxes and the daimyo saving wood from making more military buildings.)

Overall, great strat and layout. Way to go, cookie!

Q: How do I get veteran skirms as the dutch?
- you have to buy the upgrade in the the barracks lol it should be under the skimiser logo. -you have to be in age3 to get veteran and age 4 to get guard.
After realizing they get automatically upgraded:
- o right i play brits so i just guessed.....thats slighly embarrasing lol

"Ah, the wonderful smell of failure!" - George_III on a full-capslocked topic.
posted 10-28-07 09:48 AM EDT (US)     3 / 31  
Never fail to impress Cookie, nice work.

Congratulations Serge - Winner of the FFA Spring Series 2008
posted 10-28-07 04:04 PM EDT (US)     4 / 31  
I have used this strat afew times now, winning 2/3 of them. The times that i lost were to lvl 30+ indians, compared to my 15 jap. they used Gurkas which really ran through my AMs. though i didnt really harrass their villies from the start like i would have liked.

From the start you really need to explore hard, that i believe gave me the edge over the other player. With harder treasure guards, the stun ability really is good.

I followed the BO fairly close, I dont use Yumis, i try to focus all vils on food/gold and have 2-4 on wood so getting enough wood to use them is hard. Daimyo card really makes or breaks this strat imho, shipping units to the front lines can tip battles.

I tend to send the 4 villies card 2 times, which just amplifies my eco. which at that point in the rush is loads more then they tend to have.

My experiences rarely go into fortress age(maybe 2), but when they do, i tend to have 2-3 saved HC shipments, and sending the 2 fire arrows 2 times shuts it down.

to Kenji The consulate is actually 100w.
posted 10-28-07 04:41 PM EDT (US)     5 / 31  
Cookie: Nice, I love the addition of Fortress fighting.
Question: What resourse do you task your shrines on? Wood?
Jewdochop: to Kenji The consulate is actually 100w.
Ah, yes. That's what I said. However, I realized it was 200w myself so Im assuming you just typo'd?

Q: How do I get veteran skirms as the dutch?
- you have to buy the upgrade in the the barracks lol it should be under the skimiser logo. -you have to be in age3 to get veteran and age 4 to get guard.
After realizing they get automatically upgraded:
- o right i play brits so i just guessed.....thats slighly embarrasing lol

"Ah, the wonderful smell of failure!" - George_III on a full-capslocked topic.
posted 10-28-07 04:50 PM EDT (US)     6 / 31  
Very nice Chief Daymo Cookie Crisp

I like how you wrote it with so much images, it looks really well.

I think you should watch what Wakco does, i have heard that he AM spams.
posted 10-28-07 05:04 PM EDT (US)     7 / 31  
Yea Kenji, you got my mind going towards 100 lol. but yeah its 200w.

Just got done playing a good india player who used Gurkahs and those naga riders really do an amazing job in countering them, the problem is making enough of them.

Based on how the game is going this guide really allows alot of sway in BO thatis great.
posted 10-28-07 05:31 PM EDT (US)     8 / 31  
How's this do vs Chinese CKN+Pikemen rush?
posted 10-28-07 05:40 PM EDT (US)     9 / 31  
From my experience it is abit harder, the CKN can do major dmg to AM's. micro'ing can win it, or mixing in Naga riders to hit the CKN from behind as your AM's deal with pikes.

But whoever starts the rush really has the major advatage.
posted 10-28-07 05:44 PM EDT (US)     10 / 31  
exactly. if you can strike first before he masses an army and get around 2 vills or something of that sort on the chinese guy, you're in good shape to expand and build a stable to naganitas.

on the other hand, if he drowns your AMs in Chukonus then you;re in hot water. since the japs have no cav shipments in age II they need to build a stable and add some yumi archers in with it.

Proud winner of the FFA Winter Round '07!
[Judgε][Epic Thread]
My Vods:[One] [Two][Three][Four]
"with all the bling on a mandsabar you could win the game by paying the enemy to resign." IL
posted 10-28-07 11:18 PM EDT (US)     11 / 31  
Assuming your opponent is Japanese as well, wouldn't a few Yumi's + turtle cause a lot of problems?
posted 10-28-07 11:44 PM EDT (US)     12 / 31  
Well personally its easier to just rush lol, but that could work. you would need alot of yumi's tho, and u can spam alot of AM's which can make up for anti-inf units.
posted 10-29-07 01:31 PM EDT (US)     13 / 31  
The Chinese have one big disadvantage vs any pure 1 unit spam. THeir standard 2 armies, the standard army and the old han army, provide them with not only 3 CKN but also 2 steppe riders or 3 pikes respectively. Early on, This forms some difficulties.

Now CKN are generally good enough of a counter, but if you can maintain constant one rax production, he will never get enough CKN to beat your muskets, as although banner armies prolly train slightly faster per unit than the 5 unit batches, 3 CKN probably dont beat 5 ashigaru, and most certainly not with the daymo.

The key is being fast. The chinese, from my own experience, can have 11 steppe riders and 14 CKN with more CKN and steppe riders coming at 6:30. Or if you go pikes, 14 CKN with 15 pikes. if you have 15 musks by 6:15, he wont beat you if you micro properly, AM being faster than CKN.
posted 10-29-07 04:35 PM EDT (US)     14 / 31  
also if u DO build a consulate(200w) then u can go Japan isolation and grab for fairly cheap the train units in groups of 10 think.(not sure card name or export #)

and that helps further. or spend that 200 wood on another rax... i guess lol.

just some other ways to run it.
posted 11-06-07 03:00 AM EDT (US)     15 / 31  
I keep getting outspammed by China =(
posted 11-07-07 02:00 AM EDT (US)     16 / 31  
Been playing alot of japanese civ lately, and this strat is fairly sound except for some details.

1. 5 villies? India starts with 5, Japan starts with 6.
2. Placement of the cherry orchid isn't important, as easily half the first attacks to the TC come from the side or rear.
3. I use the initial wood to build a consulant and pick ports, lowers your cost for age up to 680. Ship shrines as your first shipment,if you wish, and you'll have 680f by the time you get that shipment, or very soon afterward. I use advanced wonder to reduce time.
4. This early in the game, try to get a few of these shrines out from the tc. They make good scout posts and lock up food sources so your opponent cant use them.
5. Max build amount of villies for wonder is 8, not 10.
6. Can't remember the name on the card, but the age2 that gives you 300 export can actually be good, as with picking ports, you can fire off 7 x-bows from the points and cheaply switch over to isolation for increased attack on all your units. Think the x-bows get a 23 attk after the switch.
7. If you're doing an early rush, it does wonders to at least get 5 sam's in the mix due to thier very high seige ability. They're essential against calvery based civs as well.
8. If you go to fortress, push in more sam's with the Ag muskets via shipments.
9. If you are looking to boom, try to ship both Dojo's, Free units do more than enough to offset military costs you normally need for unit production. There are ways to make those units train faster as well.
10. placing the shrine resources to wood allows you to just barely keep up with shrine building after the innitial 4 shipped.
My ussual target for villies is 20 on food and 10-15 on gold before i even put one on wood. Yumi's won't be in the mix, but you have Naginata's to fall back on for LI counter. HI is destroyed already by the ag's and sam's. I rarely go to age3 these days unless im just wanting to play with my opponent.

Also, i usually build my barracks close to my TC and use my Daimyo for unit shipment and forward production. This allows me to never be without some military at my home base for thier attacks, and to build up for a secondary attack on them. Often a flanking attack.

On a closing note, i wish to add those Hamoto(sp?)Samurai from the issolation selection in the consulancy are by far the most deadly unit short of the shogun.(Love the shogun) 1k hp 200+ seige 100+ attk, all depending on upgrades, is just devastating.

[This message has been edited by Grellen (edited 11-07-2007 @ 02:04 AM).]

posted 11-07-07 05:17 AM EDT (US)     17 / 31  
This rush would be stronger if you went 300 wood instead of 2 shrines (for 3 shrines + xp), and shipped daiymo 3rd after the musket card, for more muskets faster. The onin war card would also be great for finishing off their buildings, if you beat their armies.

If all things are relative then cannibalism is just a matter of taste...
My AoE3 Stats

[This message has been edited by Yobbo (edited 11-07-2007 @ 05:18 AM).]

posted 11-07-07 03:05 PM EDT (US)     18 / 31  
its true, i have used 300 woodo (as blue_gaiden did) instead of the two shrines card once i realized that. the wood goes towards the houses as well as market upgrades or whatever you need.

I have edited my own strategy without posting it up here due to lazyness . quicker = better. the daiymo is one of those cards that can help in so many ways (training cavalry is one of them).

Why didnt i include onin war? simply because i have only recently gained enough HC xp to get that card!

so yup, that'd work too

Proud winner of the FFA Winter Round '07!
[Judgε][Epic Thread]
My Vods:[One] [Two][Three][Four]
"with all the bling on a mandsabar you could win the game by paying the enemy to resign." IL
posted 11-08-07 03:19 AM EDT (US)     19 / 31  
What's everyone's take on Japan vs. the early China spam? Or early Iroq spam?

What are the options? I can't seem to build enough to defend.
posted 11-08-07 07:04 AM EDT (US)     20 / 31  
Defend? Read my post above about barracks placement. You should be taking the offensive, btw, not worried about making a defense. Sounds like you're trying to turtle, and this guide definitely won't get you that result.
posted 11-08-07 09:35 AM EDT (US)     21 / 31  
Grellen, your strat gets you aged up pretty fast but doesn't allow for a good rush. The economic sacrifice is usually quite large unless you start w/ an abundance of wood.

[This message has been edited by YouHeDad (edited 11-08-2007 @ 10:39 AM).]

posted 11-08-07 03:12 PM EDT (US)     22 / 31  
yup. building the consolate tears away your options to build houses. youre spending 200 wood and a card to get to the first age? sure it will get you there fast, but this rush is designed to get you a half decent eco too.

you are right on several of your remarks grellen, but as i mentioned above, i am open to changes in the strategy, feel free to do what you wish, im not stopping you

on a side note, i hardley even noticed the japs have six! im so used to the sioux with their five vills....

Proud winner of the FFA Winter Round '07!
[Judgε][Epic Thread]
My Vods:[One] [Two][Three][Four]
"with all the bling on a mandsabar you could win the game by paying the enemy to resign." IL
posted 11-08-07 04:31 PM EDT (US)     23 / 31  
i generally do a consulate build aswell, i can capture a wood treasure almost easily and wood really isnt a problem.
posted 11-09-07 03:05 AM EDT (US)     24 / 31  
The only eco sacrifice i get is tc idle time while the FIRST shipment is arriving WHILE im already aging up. Of late, i've been favoring the 2 shrine shipment because , though you get more wood for a straight wood shipment, you need to factor in the time it takes for villies to collect the wood and for the shrines to be built. Though it is good to use the explorer to build those forward shrines, innitially, you want to use as much time as you can to get the areas explored and treasures grabbed. As such, it seems to work better for me to use the 2 shrine card instead.

Also, don't forget, outside of wood for shrines, you need zero wood to do the innitial rush.

[This message has been edited by Grellen (edited 11-09-2007 @ 03:11 AM).]

posted 11-23-07 10:03 PM EDT (US)     25 / 31  
Great stratagy! Got up to serg thanks to you .
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