shiznix
Banned
posted 10-12-08 05:23 PM EDT (US)
Hello
I usually play around with the ottoman, sometimes with the british.
In team games, I never go shipment spamming because eco cards (or unit upgrade cards, for that matter) just last until the end of the game, unlike crates or unit shipments.
My basic idea is: if I can't go for quantity of villagers(focusing on ottos now) in a certain amount of time, why don't I just go for quality?
I mean, getting spice trade and hunting dogs (+30%) makes 20 vilies equal 26 (when hunting).
Even though I won't be hunting until the end of the game, the card is indeed useful for, like, the first 15 minutes of the game.
Now, here comes the question: Is the card really worth it? What do you think? total crap or the needed boost to get your supremacy going?
CrazyLunatic
Veteran Musketeer
posted 10-12-08 07:06 PM
EDT (US)
2 / 9
as you pointed out: the more villagers you have the more improved gathering cards affect you. so it's not as useful sending it in age 1, but much better when you have ~30 or so villagers in early game you're better off sending villager shipments/military.
nidhog_slayer
Skirmisher
posted 10-13-08 02:35 PM
EDT (US)
3 / 9
I would rather just send 5 villagers, wich themself are affected on upgrades aswell.
In my opinion and experience, hunting improvement cards don't really cut it unless there is loads of hunts and for example cheyenne TP for 12 bison tech.
The Jackal
Skirmisher
posted 10-13-08 06:35 PM
EDT (US)
4 / 9
IMO, none of the gather rate improvements are worthwhile until Refrigeration and Royal Mint. Arguments could also be made for the plantation upgrades, but those would be sent after the big two.
Early in the game, you're going to get quicker return on investment from villagers or a trickle card, and later, there's better things to send.
ironblade1
Skirmisher
posted 10-14-08 11:43 AM
EDT (US)
5 / 9
for the most part as british i never send eco cards till probably after 10 min before this i send all villy and redsource. From then on i only send eco/military enhancement cards. once in a while i send 2 cannon or 10 lb in a fix.
As otto you actualy should send resource cardsl. Once in fortress your cards still should be resource and miltary. Because to compete you need all the TCS up you need your strong units because your eco is weak. Your eco can't support you as you wait for the improvements to pay off.
CrazyLunatic
Veteran Musketeer
posted 10-14-08 07:17 PM
EDT (US)
6 / 9
"As otto you actualy should send resource cardsl. Once in fortress your cards still should be resource and miltary. Because to compete you need all the TCS up you need your strong units because your eco is weak. Your eco can't support you as you wait for the improvements to pay off. "
that's why ottos usually rush or ff their late game isn't as strong as other civs due to slow and expensive troops.
CrazyLunatic
Veteran Musketeer
posted 10-14-08 09:10 PM
EDT (US)
8 / 9
"Well, I'd argue that it's their midgame that's weak. If an Ottoman can survive til late game with their infrastructure intact, they're quite viable.
They have the same 99 villager limit as other civs, once they reach industrial, and get card upgrades that are competitive with most other civs.
Their only substantive late game weakness comes from not getting the training time upgrade card for janissaries. "
that's a pretty big weakness in late game because their jans train so slow. treaty is all about spamming the train time of janissaries is just too slow to keep up with a musket spammer for example.
mid game is about fortress in which i would argue that they are actually pretty decent with the jan upgrade card and vetran jans and spahi and the age 3 2 falconet card I would say ottos mid game is pretty strong. Also with 3 tc's their eco can get back on track.
The Jackal
Skirmisher
posted 10-15-08 01:05 PM
EDT (US)
9 / 9
This just in: Treaty isn't balanced.
The unit shipments to which you refer are nice, but I'm reluctant to describe them as 'midgame'. If you're getting those shipments after your opponent has reached fortress yourself, you've probably already lost, having blown a good portion of your early game with a failed rush.
If you went FF, then you're likely to reach fortress shortly after most civs reach colonial, and thus those shipments qualify as 'early game' in my book, since you'll be able to use them in your initial skirmishes.
When I talk about midgame, I mean the period after the initial big battle has taken place, when both sides are building reinforcements and trying to grow their economy at the same time. Generally in a battle that isn't just the cleanup following a successful rush, both armies will have sustained serious losses, without inflicting crippling damage on each others' econ.
This is the period when the Ottomans show their greatest weakness. Granted, they can continue to grow their economy while diverting their full resources to their military, but other civs will have a much stronger economy, and access to direct counters to their janissaries.They can either continue to grow their economy while keeping parity with Ottoman force growth, or they can switch to full military production and just overwhelm the ottoman player in an attrition battle.
If the Ottoman can survive to industrial through this period, they get a lot better. Sure, the train time on Janissaries is slow, but there's no unit they can't counter from the stable or foundry, so slower janissary training isn't as bad as all that. Now will an Ottoman player be on an even footing with a late-game powerhouse like France, Britain, Portugal or Germany? Maybe not. But there's plenty of civs out there they can match up to fairly well later on.