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Age of Empires III Heaven » Forums » Strategy Central » RAJPUT? Useless?
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Topic Subject:RAJPUT? Useless?
far_easterner
Skirmisher
posted 11-23-08 04:57 PM EDT (US)         
Here are some stats. Make your decision/opinion and discuss. My conclusion is at the bottom.

Rajput Stats
Cost: 100-F 35-W = 189 vilsecs
HP: 150
Speed: 5.0
Siege: 20
Attack: 18 (hand)

Sepoy Stats
Cost: 90-F 30-C = 157 vilsecs
HP: 190
Speed: 4.0
Siege: 22
Attack: 15 (hand), 25 (ranged)

Stats in common:
Bonuses: Cavalry x 3.0, LightInfantry x 2.25
Armor: 20% hand resist

Comparison:
Cost = Sepoy 17% cheaper
HP = Sepoy 27% stronger
Speed = Rajput 20% faster
Siege = Sepoy 10% more siege
Hand Attack = Rajput 20% more attack

Things to consider: Villagers and houses cost wood. Wood gathers slower than coin by 17% .

Against LI/cav or LI/HI, which combo would fare better? Gurkha/Sepoy or Gurkha/Rajput?

Against LI/HI: the rajput would die since HI has hand attack armor and LI has bonus vs rajput. the sepoy would fare better since it has a ranged attack to use against HI and has more HP. BUT would the rajput's extra hand attack and speed be enough to outweigh the sepoy's ranged attack and extra HP in a battle like this? I think this is a matter of micro and a sepoy would be the better choice.

Against LI/cav: the rajput would be quick enough to defend the gurkha and then turn to fight the LI with more hand attack than the sepoy. But, the rajput must melee the LI so if the cav comes back, the rajput might already be dead if you make them fight the LI. The sepoy could me mixed in with the gurkha to protect them better. Also, the sepoy is cheaper so you could get a few more of them to defend your LI, or make the same amount and have more LI for yourself. I think against a LI/cav combo, using sepoy would be better.

Conclusion: Sepoy better than rajput. More siege damager, more versatile, cheaper, and stronger.
AuthorReplies:
Arcane Ranger
Skirmisher
posted 11-23-08 05:05 PM EDT (US)     1 / 16       
Rajputs are like rodleros. Fast but weak pikemen in a way.

You have to consider armor for LI too. Ranged attacks by the Sepoys will be lowered to around the Rajput's attack. If sepoys go into hand attack, they're easily microed off by RI (skirmishers are called RI, not LI). Rajputs are not. Rajputs can raid and retreat easier than sepoys.

They're two different units for two different purposes, even though they're both HI. Sepoys are musketeers, built for standing and shooting, but rajputs are fast hand infantry, build for quick, fast, and deadly attacks.
Gun_Guy
Skirmisher
posted 11-23-08 05:28 PM EDT (US)     2 / 16       
IMO the sepoy is a lot more useful than the rajput, mainly because of it's versatility and the general brokenness of the TAD countersystem.

Like the rodellero the rajput was intended to be a fast melee unit for taking down skirmishers and archers, and that worked fine in 'nilla and TWC (speaking about the rodellero). In TAD all melee HI is pretty useless unless facing cavarly, because their other multiplier (LI) is against *drum roll* COYOTE RUNNERS! Yes that's right people. Musketeers are better off facing skirmishers in ranged than melee, and doppels/jag prowls/halbs/etc. can just as well quit trying.
dOPplesaurus
Skirmisher
posted 11-23-08 05:56 PM EDT (US)     3 / 16       
The Jackal
Skirmisher
posted 11-24-08 03:16 AM EDT (US)     4 / 16       
in TAD all melee HI is pretty useless unless facing cavarly, because their other multiplier (LI) is against *drum roll* COYOTE RUNNERS! Yes that's right people. Musketeers are better off facing skirmishers in ranged than melee, and doppels/jag prowls/halbs/etc. can just as well quit trying.
This is a gross oversimplification, sadly, and not even very insightful. Of course heavy infantry doesn't perform well against its direct counter. However, charging your sepoys or rajputs into a formation of skirmishers is still better than standing off and shooting. I'm not saying you're going to win against an equal cost force of counter-infantry, but of course you shouldn't. I will say that you'll do more damage before your HI is killed, and if you've got some flanking cavalry, you might even win.

As Doppelsaurus points out, upgraded doppels will crush unescorted light infantry. So will samurai and dutch halberds. What WILL counter a big formation of dopps? Ironically, musketeers. Go figure.
LordKivlov
Royal Guard
posted 11-24-08 03:52 AM EDT (US)     5 / 16       
in TAD all melee HI is pretty useless unless facing cavarly, because their other multiplier (LI) is against *drum roll* COYOTE RUNNERS! Yes that's right people. Musketeers are better off facing skirmishers in ranged than melee, and doppels/jag prowls/halbs/etc. can just as well quit trying.
You have no idea what you are talking about. Coyote Runners and Eagle Knights (Light Infantry) are the Aztec version of Cavalry. If Heavy Infantry had no bonus against them, Aztecs could just spam Coyotes all day long and win against every civ, with a single unit. Honestly, if HI had a bonus against Infantry, there would be no point to building Strelets, Skirmishers etc. Since I could win by just flooding you with pikes and some crossbows to kill your HI units.

Musketeers fair well in melee with Skirmishers, a couple are needed to melee to slow them down while the rest shoot. A mix of shooting and meleeing Musketeer-type units allows you to have 30% more damage from the Melee mode units, a snare so you can kill them without them hit and running and significantly less dead units because all your units are clammering over each other to get at their target.
and dutch halberds.
Sadly this isn't the case anymore. Halberdiers are worthless against Infantry other than to shield your Skirmishers from their melee infantry or just get in the way while Artillery blows their units apart. I was optimistic, a .25 modifier doesn't seem like much on paper but in play, it's a significant reduction to their damage that makes Halb spamming worthless and the only reason to build them is for their Siege damage capabilities.

Proud Citizen of Sovietcanuckistan
Lord_Sami
Skirmisher
posted 11-24-08 08:21 AM EDT (US)     6 / 16       
Rajputs are useless. To the topic If they had 6 speed they would be more useable.. and higher siege

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Gun_Guy
Skirmisher
posted 11-24-08 11:44 AM EDT (US)     7 / 16       
You have no idea what you are talking about.
Well... You might be right there... But like an average politician I do not need to be right, just make a point, which is; HI got a huge handicap on TAD because they no longer have a multiplier against skirmishers/archers in melee. Aztec units were a pain and needed a working counter, but IMO it was stupid to take a whole unit class' counter multiplier and change it to a bonus against merely 2 units.

About the musketeers facing skirmishers in range... Well I admit I was completely wrong there. The musketeer will still defeat, though only barely, a skirmisher in melee, although the x2.3 multiplier is gone.
About pikes flooding your skirmsh and winning... Did it work in 'nilla? No, did't think so...
If HI had a multiplier against "Infantry" they would have a multiplier against themselves.

In melee doppels will not always own skirmishers, if the armies are pop-equal. I did a few runs with this in the editor (no micro, appart from attack move on doppels) to make sure I made no hilariously stupid statements now. Tested with armies of 5 doppels and 10 skirmishers (will probably be different because the AI will focus fire, but players with micro can compensate for increased army size, not even mentioning HnR).

Skirmishers with normal spacing will die to doppels 8/10 times. 2/10 1 or 2 skirmishers will survive.
Skirmishers with increased spacing (Stagger) will win 10/10 times, with 3-7 skirmishers left.

I hope I made myself clear now... Feel like an idiot when I look at my previous post now. But hey it's easy to make a mistake when you're up late (rest of family went to bed aproxx. 2 hours before that) and you're focusing on the mock-exam which you will have later that day (I belive I will be getting an ace )

Invisible Pink Unicorns are beings of awesome mystical power. We know this because they manage to be invisible and pink at the same time. Like all religions, the Faith of the Invisible Pink Unicorns is based upon both logic and faith. We have faith that they are pink; we logically know that they are invisible because we canít see them. ~Steve Eley
Lord_Richjp
Skirmisher
posted 11-24-08 11:46 AM EDT (US)     8 / 16       
Using this logic pikes are useless compared to musketeers

My grandmother slaps harder than the Agra Fort shoots. And she's dead. ~ Ender_Ward

By the same token, if I attempt to operate the mouse using nothing but my butt-cheeks, micro will also come down to "luck." ~ Beatnikjoe
Last Minuteman
Skirmisher
posted 11-24-08 04:30 PM EDT (US)     9 / 16       
Ummm, not the way I see it.
1st, sepoys are relatively better than musketeers.
2. Pikes are far cheaper than Rajputs
3. Most civs that build pikes (France, Britain, Ger, Port, Spain) are going to be mixing them with crossbows, which also cost food and wood, allowing a simpler and more efficient econ, while sepoys will be mixed with Gurkhas, which cost gold food, the same as sepoys, while Rajputs cost wood and food.

Oh, and their is no reason to build seps or rajs thanks to the delicious op zambs. (slight exaggeration).
Eicho
Skirmisher
posted 11-24-08 04:38 PM EDT (US)     10 / 16       
Gun_Guy, HI never had a bonus vs RI (Skirmishers, Xbows, Strelets), in meele or ranged. That bonus is vs Coyote Runners, Eagle Knights, etc.
murdilator
Skirmisher
posted 11-24-08 05:28 PM EDT (US)     11 / 16       
Rajputs are useless. To the topic If they had 6 speed they would be more useable.. and higher siege
Rajputs were tested with 5.50 speed, as their Mansadber has 5.50 speed.

*Off Topic a bit

Gurkha were tested with 17 attack, as the Mansabder has 17 attack. In addition, they were originally meant to be native warriors, as their Mansabder is called "Jemadar", in "NatMercGurkhaJemadar."

As most of you know, Sepoys were tested out with a small multiplier to cavalry, and (probably) a bit less attack, such as 24 x1.25 vs cavalry, or 25 x1.15 vs cavalry.

The Mansabder Howdah somehow has 3 splash damage instead of 1. That was probably removed from howdahs in testing, or an indirect boost to Howdahs in general. In addition, Howdahs were originally tested with 75 x2.5 dmg vs cav, 75 x2.0 (1.01 would have made it 60 x3.0, x2.5).

The Urumi was originally meant to be India's skirmsher - Gurkhas were meant to be native warriors. This probably would have left India unneeded to any balance changes, as these units are strong, making up for elephants' weakness. If you want to know how I knew this, look into "Options", "Hotkeys", "Unit Hotkeys", "Barracks Hotkeys", and scroll down to the end of the list. To your amazement you shall see "Urumi Swordsmen", and "Multiple Urumi Swordsmen", with "E" as their hotkey, just as the Gurkha's Hotkey is "E". Even if you change the hotkey, you cannot build your Urumi. Urumis are about on Par with Abus guns if you ask me - not the same unit, but the same amount of firepower, with some add-ons.


That's all I know about India concerning these.

Anyways, Rajputs are decent units, but you should use them with Urumi + Sowars/Mahouts backed up with some Sepoy+Gurkha. As India, you almost have to use every type of unit that you can actually train in your army.


regards,


murdilator
LordKivlov
Royal Guard
posted 11-24-08 05:58 PM EDT (US)     12 / 16       
Well... You might be right there... But like an average politician I do not need to be right, just make a point, which is; HI got a huge handicap on TAD because they no longer have a multiplier against skirmishers/archers in melee.
Heavy Infantry never had a bonus against Light Infantry in Vanilla so your entire argument is flawed. They only gained the bonus against Light Infantry in TWC when Coyote Runners and Eagle Knights were implemented.

Proud Citizen of Sovietcanuckistan

[This message has been edited by LordKivlov (edited 11-24-2008 @ 05:59 PM).]

murdilator
Skirmisher
posted 11-24-08 06:10 PM EDT (US)     13 / 16       
Well... You might be right there... But like an average politician I do not need to be right, just make a point, which is; HI got a huge handicap on TAD because they no longer have a multiplier against skirmishers/archers in melee.
Heavy Infantry never had a bonus against Light Infantry in Vanilla so your entire argument is flawed. They only gained the bonus against Light Infantry in TWC when Coyote Runners and Eagle Knights were implemented.
Actually, that is quite right, but with one complication - All skirmisher units - with the addition of Coyote Runners and Eagle Runner Knights were classified as "Light Infantry" in 1.00 Warchiefs. I solidly remember that as Colonial Militia (revolution type) had 1.5x bonus towards skirmishers. I believe in 1.01 Warchiefs they stayed the same, but in the patches to follow, they removed that tag. Only in Warchiefs did Skimisher units ever have the tag from what I know. ES knew that it was very confusing, so they removed that - also to let Rodeleros no longer dominate the battlefield [against skirmisher units]. This period was odd - but interesting, as it was short.


Hope I could clear some issues! I don't mean to be offensive to anyone or anything!


regards,


murdilator

[This message has been edited by LordKivlov (edited 11-24-2008 @ 06:27 PM).]

LordKivlov
Royal Guard
posted 11-24-08 06:28 PM EDT (US)     14 / 16       
Hmm that's strange, I don't remember that at all. Granted, I was too busy running people into the floor with Double Agent in 2v2.

Proud Citizen of Sovietcanuckistan
madez007
Skirmisher
posted 12-01-08 01:33 PM EDT (US)     15 / 16       
i think rajput sucks they do realy bad against light inf. even tho they have great speed its all so easyer 2 mass gurkas if you pick sepoys

thats all
MadeZ

ps. my first langues is danish
ImperialLobster
Skirmisher
posted 12-01-08 01:51 PM EDT (US)     16 / 16       
i agree they are un needed. but funny- their icon reminds me of a famous iraqi...

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