Every morning in school, at the beginning of 2nd period we have to stand up for a moment, put our right hand on our heart, and pledge to the flag of the United States of America.
Ok, maybe not all of us. I've noticed that like in elementry school, everyone would say the pledge no matter what. Then in middle school less people would say it. Now in highschool, very few say it. Sometimes nobody says it (except for the people over the loudspeaker).
Personally, I still say the pledge. Has anyone else noticed this? Do you still say the pledge?
What about you guys from other countries. Do you do something similar to the pledge of allegiance?
O_O I don't see why everyone would have the same perspective as you. Many soldiers are patriots till death.
I won a thread! CROSS REMOVED BY REQUEST OF MODS Blood weighs more than tears.
British_Eagle Guest
posted 10-28-06 10:31 PM
EDT (US)
102 / 106
History is written by the people who survive or do not participate in the death. You realy think that somebody would have the heart to tell the entire world that the husband, father or friend that they loved died cursing the rotten luck that lead him to his death?
Once again, gain perspective before spouting stupid false ideals and biased views.
There are few that would die with all patriotism yes. I actualy hope that I will die in that very way, for Queen and Country. What im arguing is that there is a very big differance between dying for beliefs and being sentanced to death by something you didn't fully belive in. Most people will experiance the latter.
Although mainly my point is that you should quit preaching ideals and beliefs, because the people that would truly die for them are the people that would reach that conclusion for themselves.
Ninja Beagle "My weenie is beautiful." - Doikie "Is it just me, or does beagle need neutering?" - Yakcamkir
Van_Halen Skirmisher
posted 10-29-06 00:07 AM
EDT (US)
103 / 106
Everyone says the pledge at my highschool and if only some people say the pledge EVERYONE says the pledge to the Texas flag
Ace Skirmisher
(id: Ace of Diamonds)
posted 10-29-06 00:12 AM
EDT (US)
104 / 106
We sing Khe Sanh by Cold Chisel every morning. Everyone in the school does. Even the groundskeeper.
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Meteora Skirmisher
posted 10-31-06 03:46 AM
EDT (US)
105 / 106
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No, it makes some sense in the context of American society. Whereas moral standards and behavioral codes can not only be accepted by most of American society but can legally be government-endorsed, the government isn't supposed to imply affiliation with any religion, in spite of its popularity among the citizens.
It makes no sense except in cases where one is speaking stictly of organized religion and nothing else. But we're not doing that here. For people, both on the individual and cultural level, religion isn't a separate aspect of life. It fits in inextricably to both the individual's and the society's cosmology.
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And a psyche's development is certainly affected by outside influences, and one influence that's particularly trustworthy to a child is the influence of higher authorities. No, this doesn't mean that what the child will grow up thinking will ultimately be determined by their childhood elders and authorities, but it does stand to reason that said authorities would end up having a strong effect.
Yes, it has a strong effect. But it's unavoidable.
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Hmmm, I don't know, seems like too much of a blanket statement. All (or most) adolescents question all aspects of their cosmology?
Of course they don't question every aspect. Which is why an education that encourages them to question the important parts and which can direct their questioning is needed. My point here is that adolescents naturally begin to question their cosmology in general. I suppose another way to say it would be that adolescents naturally develop a tendency toward a questioning of their worldviews at a certain point in their development.
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Furthermore, I'm not even convinced that most (as opposed to, say, some) people actually end up questioning anything at all. But I don't really know, so I won't push that further...
Everyone (with few exceptions, of course) question some thing at some point. What differs is what they question and how much they question, which depends on the values instilled in them, their environment, and the kind of encouragement (or discouragement) they receive, among other smaller variables. Someone raised in and living in a Puritan or Calvinist culture probably wouldn't question anything truly important, for example, because their culture is exhibits a strong tendency toward unquestioning conformity.
Of course, using this example probably brought to mind Shrink's remark about forcing children to go to church every Sunday; however, the act of taking a child to church every Sunday differs, and here's why. When parents take a child to church every Sunday, the child learns certain values that his or her culture feel to be important, namely the importance community, the existence of a sacred, a sense of the sacredness of certain places, days, etc., and a belief in a higher power among others. None of these even remotely relate to ideals that would discourage curiosity and questioning. Now if the parents, say, stifled a child's curiosity at every turn and taught the child that asking questions was bad in itself, the child could easily become non-functioning from an intellectual standpoint later in life (although it would still take detrimental cultural practices through adolescence and late childhood in order to truly complete the process). But the act of taking children to church, or forcing them to recite the pledge of allegiance simply doesn't do the same.
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And it made perfect sense to interpret it inconsistently when the Soviets were included it the list. You, too, interpreted it inconsistently when you "used the word fascism as broadly as he did for the sake of clarity".
No, I didn't. First of all, there was only one case in which I even had the chance to interpret, so I couldn't have interpretted either inconsistently or consistently. Second, I used it the same way Shrink did, so all this is really null. You're making a problem where there was none.
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Religion and nationalisation are not at all neccessary to function in any culture (although I can see why being Christian is beneficial is the US). For that matter, neither are stories, rituals, or sport, though I see your point.
Religion and nationalism are part of culture, not separate aspects of the human existence. The same goes for the rest I listed. They are extremely important in any culture in which they exist.
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I'm sorry? It seems to me that any reasonable person would agree that a person would convert to a religion more quickly and solidly by going to church for their entire life than by simply mixing with other people.
You're taking quotes so far out of context that I don't even know what you're trying to reply to now.
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Religion is seperate, because a religion is a set of incoherent irrational beliefs based on nothing except the wonderful "faith".
Please, I needn't respond to something so ridiculous. Honestly, this is something in the class of claims I'd expect from Guardian, not you. Rather than transcribing a page from any one of a number of texts, let's just pretend you didn't make a fool of yourself and instead made a more realistic appraisal of religion.
Of course, even if we take your ridiculous claim as fact, it still wouldn't support your argument because culture includes sets of beliefs based on faith.
Do yourself a favor and get a grasp of both the concept of culture and the concept of religion.
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My point is that while authories and parents should not teach matters of the supernatural as if they are fact (which they do), because it indoctrinates children into the religion.
Children don't learn religion. They learn values and ideals. Religion as a set of beliefs doesn't come until later, and by the time children are capable of understanding the beliefs in a deep sense, they are already beginning to question and so proper education could commence. Taking a child to church doesn't prevent education for freedom nor is it a form of negative education.
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I think we can. My parents never indoctrinating me into a religion, though I have very good reason to believe they're both C of E. It's simply something they've kept private, and they left it to me to make my own mind up once I was old enough. I disagree with your claim that to teach children of these things as fact is necessity which aids them in society.
Aside from the fact that you clearly never developed a solid concept of religion or of culture, this does nothing to prove your point. I can cite various examples of children raised in religion that grew up to make their own mind, including both me and my roommate. This just goes to show that it's not the religious practices that prevent children from developing their own belief system, but other cultural factors that I cited before.
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s it is, an extremely large number do not begin to question the beliefs. Why would they? In some of their communities, their religion is as factual as their table being made of wood.
Almost all people do begin to question their beliefs, but many stop or do so ineffectively because of cultural factors that prevent them from doing so. What cosmology they started with doesn't really matter.
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Yes. Unfortunately, it simply won't have any effect on a lot of them.
Unsupported assertion. All the existing evidence tends to say otherwise.
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ZAKtheGeek Skirmisher
posted 10-31-06 07:16 PM
EDT (US)
106 / 106
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It makes no sense except in cases where one is speaking strictly of organized religion and nothing else. But we're not doing that here. For people, both on the individual and cultural level, religion isn't a separate aspect of life. It fits in inextricably to both the individual's and the society's cosmology.
Okay, I'm not talking about that at all. All I'm doing it pointing out why it's objectionable to have any mention of religion in the pledge of allegiance, the reason being that it implies the government encourages some sort of monotheism when it should have no religious affiliation.
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Yes, it has a strong effect. But it's unavoidable.
So do you agree that sometimes the claims of an authority figure become instilled as fact (or at least something rarely questioned), due to the psychological effect of those claims on an impressionable mind? Your response is very vague...
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Of course they don't question every aspect. Which is why an education that encourages them to question the important parts and which can direct their questioning is needed.
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Children don't learn religion. They learn values and ideals. Religion as a set of beliefs doesn't come until later, and by the time children are capable of understanding the beliefs in a deep sense, they are already beginning to question and so proper education could commence.
But in, say, a church, is the possibility that Christianity isn't the absolute truth ever seriously mentioned or considered? And is religion taught in public schools? As far as I know, the answer to both is usually no, so at what point in their education would children get the idea that they should perhaps question their given religion?