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Age of Empires III Heaven » Forums » Future Robot, Bonfire, Windstorm, and NewToy Games Forum » A tool to Create/Modify civilization is what AOE needs.
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Topic Subject:A tool to Create/Modify civilization is what AOE needs.
pospher
Skirmisher
(id: demon_revival)
posted 04-01-05 03:31 PM EDT (US)         
You all know very well what I'm talking about.

More than 50% of the entire AOEIII thread is dedicated on speculating civilizations, and when the game comes out, I bet so many idiotic people would go "Awwwww, but I wanted civilization X." I personally am within the rioting lot, and I think ES should reconsider their Game structure for once.

IMHO, ES should make a civ editor, in addition to a "map editor".

The Pros are very obvious:

1. You have brilliant people out of ES that can make greater products themselves. An example? Crj and his marvelous AOC scenarios. They are all better than all ES made scenarios combined together.

2. More ideas, more outside the box thinking. Certainly, one of the stupid factors in previous AOE version was that ES historians made certain historical innacuracies (like when this government actually tried to jail some ES personnel for historical innacuracies) and justified the mistake by saying "oh, but we can't do anything for the fun factor", "oh, but so what?", "oh, but we already have too much civ". Nobody cares, they were wrong. So rather than arguing against irrefutable facts, why not join them?

3. People like games when their ideas are being put into play. This is so obvious that I don't think I need to explain this further. FE, a community could come up with their own civilizations and love it. The game would fulfil satisfaction more flexibly, doing it's job.

4. Nobody would complain, especially for Historical Innacuracies. If they have one, they could make their own civilzation. Just that simple. If they don't have time, too bad.

5. Free civilizations. ES won't have to waste much time making stupid patches and changes. They could just receive the best civilization from contests and use them. It's a no-one lose situation.

Here's the Cons:

1. Takes more time. So? It would be an excellent renovation to the AOE series. A lot more people would love it, because it's so flexible.

2. People can hack this and use it to create clone Cd...bla...bla....more blahs. Well, if they have the ability to hack, they'll do it anyway. Duh. Just because some smartasses are hacking, doesn't mean a bunch of honest people who want to enjoy the game should lose their priviledges.

So in the end, ES should make a Civilization Editor. Who's with me?


EDIT: Added point 5 by me.

[This message has been edited by pospher (edited 04-01-2005 @ 03:33 PM).]

AuthorReplies:
SilentScreams
Skirmisher
posted 04-01-05 04:00 PM EDT (US)     1 / 28       
Yes, I like the idea very much. Always wanted to create my own custom civ, and I'm no good at modding. Also give the tools to adapt/construct and rename techs and units.

All Hail Giant Squid World Domination
Theris264
Skirmisher
posted 04-03-05 05:30 AM EDT (US)     2 / 28       
If I record correctly (so I am NOT entirely sure!), I remember one of the ES employees mentioning something about that the single player campaign civ was NOT one of the eight predetermined multiplayer civ, rather a blend of all 8 ones.
Question remains however wether ES is shipping the game with their civ editing tool, and how extensively we can edit civs with this tool.

Theris264
former Age of Mythology Heaven and Age of Empires III Heaven forumer||former member of Ambition Designs
"An eye for an eye, and the whole world goes blind" -Gandhi
Imortal Odysseus
Skirmisher
posted 04-06-05 07:53 PM EDT (US)     3 / 28       
"Who's with me?"

im w/u bro all the way

standing rebellions
mexican beer runs
threaten not to buy the game

vamos mi amigo

viva el paso

viva la resistance!!!


THE DEATH OF ONE IS A TRAGEDY
THE DEATH OF MILLIONS IS JUST A STATISTIC
jakes_button
Skirmisher
posted 04-07-05 05:10 PM EDT (US)     4 / 28       
On one hand I do like the idea of a Civ Editor and giving the power in the hands of the people to create their own Civ the way they like it. Sort of how Empire Earth did it...You have so many points to spend on things like Economics, Religion, Military, etc...

The only problem is that each civilization in terms of art looks the same. The buildings are the same, the units are the same, everything is the same except for how the Civ actually plays.

When I played EE and found that my unique Civ looked like all the other Civs in the game, I quickly lost interest and thought, "This is now Age of Empires" where every Civ not only played in a unique way but also had a unique look in terms of buildings and in terms of units.

Alexandergreat3
Skirmisher
posted 04-07-05 05:21 PM EDT (US)     5 / 28       
Excellent post! In AoE3, with the upgradable Home City feature, it is like a civ editor, in the sense that the bonuses can be customized according to the players' preferences. Isn't it?
jakes_button
Skirmisher
posted 04-07-05 05:28 PM EDT (US)     6 / 28       
I completely forgot about the Home City being its own custom Civ. Bingo! Theirs your custom Civ right their!

[This message has been edited by jakes_button (edited 04-07-2005 @ 05:28 PM).]

Canadian_Dawwg
Skirmisher
posted 04-07-05 06:04 PM EDT (US)     7 / 28       
That would be an amazing idea. If they do it I hope it wont screw up online play.

Maker of the following Amazing Maps: Fight for Gold, Winter's Pass, Desert Warfare, Battle for the Palace.
Working on: Bandit Attack
------------------------------------------------------------
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Zaph
Skirmisher
(id: ZaphodBeeblebrox)
posted 04-07-05 06:55 PM EDT (US)     8 / 28       
It might scew up online play. If everyone played with their own civ... I don't know, there could be some problems, not only with the actual playing of the game online but the accusassions of cheating, stacking etc. A good idea but, hm, it may not work. I liked it in EE, except for the fact that all the civilazations looked the same.

Zaphod

PhoenixBird
Skirmisher
posted 04-07-05 07:29 PM EDT (US)     9 / 28       
Since it would slow the relase of the game, i think we can have enough fun without it. Isnt really a thing that i deeply want in the game, as for me what we have saw is good enough

If the editor will be this time heavily improved, we may be able to make our "custom civilization" by selecting wich units will come out of what buildings, how may they will cost, training time, etc....

Some of these things are already in AoM, just need to be improved a bit more deeply, a la Blizzard editor style, wich, indeed, is very good.


Play my Scenarios:
GraveBlood

NeoMutation 2
NeoMutation
Myr_Enforcerer----------------------------------------------1800 (Greek)
dw_wb------------------------------------------------------17xx (Smurf)

[This message has been edited by PhoenixBird (edited 04-07-2005 @ 07:29 PM).]

Midgard Eagle
Skirmisher
posted 04-07-05 07:47 PM EDT (US)     10 / 28       

Quote:

and when the game comes out, I bet so many idiotic people would go "Awwwww, but I wanted civilization X."


[Flashback to after Empires' release] Ugh... I know the feeling. "WTF N0 Japan?!" times 100 000...

I already posted on this: Link

The editor in question (Warcraft III's) lets you build unit stats, building stats, tech trees, and so on from scratch. I give examples in my first post (first of the thread). It's amazingly easy to edit units with it, and yet it's so powerful. It doesn't let you make new models (of course, that's what modelling programs are for), but you can change units' abilities, range, name, description, and so on without using triggers or hacking or anything.

Quote:

2. People can hack this and use it to create clone Cd...bla...bla....more blahs.


How would a civ editor help you clone a CD? Or am I way off?

Quote:

If the editor will be this time heavily improved, we may be able to make our "custom civilization" by selecting wich units will come out of what buildings, how may they will cost, training time, etc....


Exactly. That's your civilization editor right there.

Woad Creations veteran, WiC junkie

[This message has been edited by Midgard Eagle (edited 04-07-2005 @ 07:49 PM).]

Cataphract887
Skirmisher
posted 04-07-05 07:57 PM EDT (US)     11 / 28       
but of course it cant be used in multiplayer cause you could give yourself every advanatage...unless you both uploaded your civs into each other for checking\OKing and then played,and have non-custom civ rooms.a real civ editor would be rox

Quoted from Cataphract887 in another thread:

no of course not.the average user shouldnt have the ability to edit wave patterns,it would only make you confused.the game should be streamlined and power options taken out to benifit 'joe gamer'

im guessing that sums up ES response to this idea


"Excellent could be any map that has the quality of a ES random map or ES scenario. AoK is an excellent, award winning game. That's where I'd start." -AnastasiaKafka

"Hard work is evil. Bitmaps are stupid. Working on a scenario for more than one afternoon is stupid. Triggers are stupid. Testing your own scenario is stupid. The world is stupid. You are the Greatest." -Ingo Van Thiel
YellowCard05
Skirmisher
posted 04-07-05 08:12 PM EDT (US)     12 / 28       

Quote:

It might scew up online play. If everyone played with their own civ... I don't know, there could be some problems, not only with the actual playing of the game online but the accusassions of cheating, stacking etc

Wow do you really think that ES is that dumb, come on would they really let everyone play a game with their own civ, think for a sec. Custom civs would be for custom offline and online Scenarios. Th key word here is Scenarios


"God is on the side with the best artillery."
-Napoleon Bonaparte
^^^^lol that guy is heroic and beastly
Midgard Eagle
Skirmisher
posted 04-07-05 08:49 PM EDT (US)     13 / 28       

Quote:

but of course it cant be used in multiplayer cause you could give yourself every advanatage...unless you both uploaded your civs into each other for checking\OKing and then played,and have non-custom civ rooms.a real civ editor would be rox


Of course you couldn't make a civ where every unit was free or whatever. Besides, Internet play is such that everyone must have the exact same version of the game for it to work. Otherwise, it risks going out-of-sync (characterized by extreme lag).

As was said, we're discussing scenario editing, not random map games.

Quote:

No of course not.the average user shouldnt have the ability to edit wave patterns,it would only make you confused.the game should be streamlined and power options taken out to benifit 'joe gamer'


So if "Joe" gamer is, say, an MP type of person, shouldn't we just cut Single-player out, too?

Just that the editor is not your thing does not mean that it is nobody's thing.

As a side note, (the RTS game) Empire Earth had a civ editor, but it only let you edit costs, production time, etc. You got 100 points at the beginning of the game, which could be spent at, say, decreasing fighters' production time by 10% or increase artillery's range by 25%.

But I prefer "real", pre-designed civs and a real civ editor, like Warcraft III offered.


Woad Creations veteran, WiC junkie

[This message has been edited by Midgard Eagle (edited 04-07-2005 @ 08:52 PM).]

ajaxthegreater
Skirmisher
posted 04-07-05 11:19 PM EDT (US)     14 / 28       
I think its good and bad. I love control with games or the computer. Creating my own civilization would be extremely fun, I think. But... would it take from the civs that ES makes in the game since people just make their own? Also, it might lead ES away from making sure their civilizations are as good as possible since people would just fix things they wanted.
Also, could you cheat and make an uber-civ with great, great benefits? (Could mess up multiplayer)

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Midgard Eagle
Skirmisher
posted 04-07-05 11:22 PM EDT (US)     15 / 28       

Quote:

But... would it take from the civs that ES makes in the game since people just make their own? Also, it might lead ES away from making sure their civilizations are as good as possible since people would just fix things they wanted.


Well, you can make your own civilizations in Warcraft III, and it's still being patched. What more, 99% of the games played (that aren't one of the numerous scenarios) use the "stock races" of the game. So no worries there.

Quote:

Also, could you cheat and make an uber-civ with great, great benefits? (Could mess up multiplayer)


Read the earlier threads. No, of course you shouldn't and wouldn't be able to.

Woad Creations veteran, WiC junkie
oratowsky
Skirmisher
posted 04-08-05 00:04 AM EDT (US)     16 / 28       
This is a great idea. Although this is NOT AoE, imagine a game where that was the concept. That was the entire game. You custom design your civilization, bound to certain guidelines. You take bonuses and such from a pool of available technology, and techs are taken away/given when other techs are taken away/give. Wouldn't that be neat? Design a civilzation from the ground up. Interesting concept.

But as it applys to AoE3, I think that would be great for scenario design, although not neccesariliy multiplayer. Perhaps you could play random map scenarios with friends that you've designed with and know you would not make a crazily powerful civilization. Very cool idea though.


"Are the boy villagers or the girl villagers better for chopping wood?" -n00b
"Founded |AKA| (now e8) with hoopdreams."
Midgard Eagle
Skirmisher
posted 04-08-05 08:12 AM EDT (US)     17 / 28       

Quote:

"Are the boy villagers or the girl villagers better for chopping wood?" -A n00b


Did someone really ask that?!

Anyhows, in WC III, changes apply to a single scenario only, although I think they can be exported. To play that scenario, it needs to be transfered to you. Technically, you can make a scenario and host it and give yourself a huge advantage, if for nothing else than a good laugh, but I haven't seen that happen... Yet. And you could do that even without a civ editor.


Woad Creations veteran, WiC junkie
Cataphract887
Skirmisher
posted 04-09-05 02:23 PM EDT (US)     18 / 28       

Quote:

So if "Joe" gamer is, say, an MP type of person, shouldn't we just cut Single-player out, too?

Just that the editor is not your thing does not mean that it is nobody's thing.

you cant see that is sarcasm??

i can use the editor.i contemplated maknig scens for aok and learning it,as with some other games.but the normal game play drew me in more.im 110% power to the people

Quote:

ow do you really think that ES is that dumb, come on would they really let everyone play a game with their own civ, think for a sec. Custom civs would be for custom offline and online Scenarios. Th key word here is Scenarios

no,of course not.if they were that dumb id be ecstatic all i can see is them saying ''possibility for cheats and complications for us'' and scrapping any real civ editor


"Excellent could be any map that has the quality of a ES random map or ES scenario. AoK is an excellent, award winning game. That's where I'd start." -AnastasiaKafka

"Hard work is evil. Bitmaps are stupid. Working on a scenario for more than one afternoon is stupid. Triggers are stupid. Testing your own scenario is stupid. The world is stupid. You are the Greatest." -Ingo Van Thiel
Ajs77311
Skirmisher
posted 04-11-05 04:47 PM EDT (US)     19 / 28       
THis would not work because:
1. You would have to make your own units and stuff, or else it wouldn't be worth it.
2. EE has a civ editor, and it only works for it because EE sucks, there is not difference between civs expect certain fixed bonused, and AoE3 (even AoE2) is lightyears past that crappyness (by which I mean there are different buildings, units, tech trees, non-fixed bonuses.
3. You could make it way too over powered.

October 25th: 298th day of the year, coincidence, conspiracy? You Decide.

I am still waiting for Name change to Armed Rebel.

Red Link
Skirmisher
posted 04-12-05 09:06 AM EDT (US)     20 / 28       
Civ Editor for Single Player = Good
Civ Editor for Multi Player = Bad

FPH! :w00t:
Ajs77311
Skirmisher
posted 04-12-05 12:38 PM EDT (US)     21 / 28       
Shouldn't this be in the general forum?

October 25th: 298th day of the year, coincidence, conspiracy? You Decide.

I am still waiting for Name change to Armed Rebel.

Indum
Banned
posted 04-13-05 12:00 PM EDT (US)     22 / 28       
Yeah, a really powerful (but user friendly, as all of ES editors have been) editor. I don't know about hackers, but it should have a message that changing your online rating is simply robbing yourself of fun and copying cds proves you are a lazy (insert favoured vulgar insult) and have no life.

[This message has been edited by Indum (edited 04-13-2005 @ 12:31 PM).]

Sarmahamajid
Skirmisher
posted 04-13-05 03:13 PM EDT (US)     23 / 28       
I am all for scinario editors in aoe3 but having a civ edtor could be rather disapointing. If you are looking for complete freedom of making your civ it just wont work. My example of this is Operation Flashpoint. They gave the comunity great power for creating what they wanted but everyone had different models and specialties. For multiplayer games the addon would have to been downloaded if you wanted to play that certain scinario so you would have to find the file on the net and download it. The problem was EVERYONE had addons so you could never find the file you wanted. the only alternative would be to get all players to download all civs in a patch. THE PATCH WOULD BE ENOURMUS. so much junk you will never use would be downloaded and very hard to get rid of. If you want a civ editor it will have to be very low power other wise it will just not work right.
jakes_button
Skirmisher
posted 04-13-05 03:27 PM EDT (US)     24 / 28       
And thats the problem...a 'low power' custom civ like the one in EE would suck just as it sucked in EE. I'm sorry but half the fun of the game is how each civ is unique and plays differently than the others and the other half is how each civ looks differently from all the others (buildings and units). If you eliminate half of the fun then all your left with is a half-*** game like EE.

Now granted their are people out their who want a custom civ option in the game and if the demand is high enough then maybe it should be considered for an expansion pack but I certainly won't be using it when I play. Thats the power of choice.

pospher
Skirmisher
(id: demon_revival)
posted 04-15-05 03:29 PM EDT (US)     25 / 28       

Quote:

I am all for scinario editors in aoe3 but having a civ edtor could be rather disapointing. If you are looking for complete freedom of making your civ it just wont work. My example of this is Operation Flashpoint. They gave the comunity great power for creating what they wanted but everyone had different models and specialties. For multiplayer games the addon would have to been downloaded if you wanted to play that certain scinario so you would have to find the file on the net and download it. The problem was EVERYONE had addons so you could never find the file you wanted. the only alternative would be to get all players to download all civs in a patch. THE PATCH WOULD BE ENOURMUS. so much junk you will never use would be downloaded and very hard to get rid of. If you want a civ editor it will have to be very low power other wise it will just not work right.

Just because one made a civilization in his own, others don't have the obligation to use it - unless the system is compatible with it in such way that the multiplayer won't work without everyone having the same Dat file. I am sure ES would make the Civ editor, if they ever consider it, in such way that having different civ wouldn't affect the entire gameplay.

Quote:

And thats the problem...a 'low power' custom civ like the one in EE would suck just as it sucked in EE. I'm sorry but half the fun of the game is how each civ is unique and plays differently than the others and the other half is how each civ looks differently from all the others (buildings and units). If you eliminate half of the fun then all your left with is a half-*** game like EE.
Now granted their are people out their who want a custom civ option in the game and if the demand is high enough then maybe it should be considered for an expansion pack but I certainly won't be using it when I play. Thats the power of choice.


Well, people do want unique civilizations, but as time goes by, ES would inevitably forfeit their patches in the game, and so on forth. Game would start to crumble, and people won't play the game as much. Just look at the AOK heaven - it was so active in those days. But now it's not. Civ editors can solve this problem.
Lord_Mandor
Skirmisher
posted 04-17-05 10:29 PM EDT (US)     26 / 28       
I think people definetly should be able to change unit names,tech names, unit looks, and create new civs. that way peeps wouldnt whine all day that "I wanted this unit, and this civ,and this tech in the game!"
CaveTown
VIP
posted 04-18-05 01:11 AM EDT (US)     27 / 28       
If you people want something like that so bad, why don't you make one when the game comes out, if you know how to make programs like that...

Former level designer at Reverie World Studios.
I still do some levels for fun, though!
pospher
Skirmisher
(id: demon_revival)
posted 04-21-05 06:56 PM EDT (US)     28 / 28       

Quote:

If you people want something like that so bad, why don't you make one when the game comes out, if you know how to make programs like that...

Well, I've tried it many times, but there's this section that even my program can't decode- the unit and civilization section. I can manipulate basically anything else- tiles of gold away from TC, amount of gold, etc...

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