Change is good, and I enjoy 90% of the changes made to AoE3 from AoK. There is just this one last 10% I disagree with (formation/stances).
I agree with my amigo Matei here. If a certain aspect of the game's design isn't cohesive with the rest of the game, then rip it out.
It's good to hear that the defend formation is buggy, and it is/will be fixed. Because it was driving me crazy in the demo.
We changed stances for the sake of improvement. Nobody bought AOK because of the stances. You didn't read about the stances in reviews of AOK. They weren't an important feature. In fact, quite the opposite. They were hard to use and confusing (it was impossible to look at an army and know what stance they were in) and something that we didn't use around the office. We wanted to try a system that improved on the old stance design. If it doesn't work, we'll end up changing it back.
I want to take this apart sentence by sentence And, yes I do know there is a way to turn on advanced commands in the game options and formation/stances are still in the game. But...We changed stances for the sake of improvement. I hope they choice pays off for you guys. We'll see when the reviews start comming in.Nobody bought AOK because of the stances. *raises hand* I did. In fact I could have sworn reading somewhere that ES hired a former millitary expert to help them design formations? AoE didn't have them, AoEII did and it was a great advancement for the Age series of games. I wouldn't have boughten AoK if it used the same 'mob' priciple as AoE did.They weren't an important feature. Well, someone from ES thought they were. It was highlighted on the back of AoK's box:
Link to the page if the image doesn't workLook under the screenshot on the left, and it says:
"Lead with cunning and might - Place your millitary in formations or give them intelligent stances and commands to add interesting tactical choices"In fact, quite the opposite.unimportant (vs. important)
=> fiddling, footling, lilliputian, little, Mickey Mouse, niggling, piddling, piffling, petty, picayune, trivial
=> immaterial, indifferent
=> lightweight
=> nickel-and-dime, small-time
=> potty
=> inconsequent, inconsequential
I guess, this is where the cookie crumbles. I disagree that formations/stances are 'unimportant'.They were hard to use and confusing (it was impossible to look at an army and know what stance they were in) and something that we didn't use around the office. That is understandable, I can see see where they may not be intuative to casual/new players - or even veteran players that 'don't care'. But I use them in every RTS game I play. AoE3 is to me a step backwards from AoM and AoK in terms of unit control. It is simplifying my choices for me. At least it could be offered as an 'advanced' advanced option I would think...We wanted to try a system that improved on the old stance design. If it doesn't work, we'll end up changing it back.Thats good to hear, glad you have an open ear to suggestions.I don't fear change, and its good to hear ES doesn't either. Changes (even changes of changes) are generally a good thing Here are some fun quotes I dug up from the AoKH news archives.Quoted from Feb 27,1999:
JOHN "Imperious Rex" Hoskin of Gamestats News Network, our kind host on the net, was there at Gamestock '99 (the lucky son of a B...Ballista) and had the chance to play a few games of Age of Empires II: Age of Kings. Trebuchet yourself over there and go see what Irex has to say about the game. Here are some of his mouth watering comments:
The articial intelligence has also been improved. Computer allies now call for help when they are being attacked or outmatched. They also resign when beaten, and do not force the player to hunt down every building and destroy it. I played through a game where my computer ally was beaten. It resigned, but before doing so, it wished me luck and transferred its remaining resources to me.
During one of my games of AoK I decided to see how the game would react to me sending a huge formation through a narrow group of trees. The units formed into a wedge to combat some nearby assailants. Once the battle was over they formed into columns for quick movement and slimmed the columns to fit between the trees. Once past the narrow opening the units formed back into a fighting wedge. I was astonished. Mike Terrano, the lead designer just smiled and continued answering questions from other press representatives.
Quoted from Feb 26,1999:
From Next Generation Online:
One of the greatest additions to the game is formations that really work. We watched as a lance of cavalry marched from a wedge formation, to a single file (in order to get through a gap between two other units), and then back to a wedge. Another excellent addition is a more robust ally AI. If you form an alliance with the computer, it will ask you for help, cede its properties to you when it's beat, give you money or aid and look out for you.
Preliminary pathfinding AI, but already better than AoE
Gamespot mentions briefly Age of Empires II: Age of Kings in their report Microsoft's Lineup unveiled. It's a small paragraph and nothing really new is revealed for those who follow the AoK development news, but it contains a few words about a promising pathfinding AI.
The formations aid greatly in the troop movements, which are a huge step-up thanks to a completely new pathfinding AI. Even though the pathfinding AI was preliminary, it's already better than Age of Empires' AI. Gathering points for villagers and troops, and a host of interface improvements will make this game easier to play; and smarter AI, more technology, and troop options will bring added depth to multiplayer games.
Quoted from Apr 08,1999:
YOU can read at Gamespot UK an interview with Age of Empires creator Bruce Shelley where he talks about the new Artificial Intelligence in Age of Empires II: Age of Kings as well as the role of heroes in campaigns where they will probably be also unique units by themselves from what it has been said, and other tidbits like movement formations and figthing formations.
The way the formations work, basically, is that there are fighting ones and movement ones. There are different kinds of fighting ones: columns, lines and wedges. You'd put your missile units at the back and hand-to-hand fighters at the front. If you take a formation and just move it slightly, it'll stay in the same formation. But if you move your soldiers a long distance, they'll go into a column formation that moves faster, and then, when you get there, they'll go back into a fighting formation. - ES Lead Designer, Bruce Shelley
Quoted from Apr 29,1999:
Formations on the battlefield
Well, one point was made finally clear in a response from Greg Street in the forum. Formations will be very cool to look at marching across the field, but depending on which one you have selected, it may means a different outcome after a battle. Formations in Age of Empires II: Age of Kings are definitely not just for parades.
Formations are cool. Yes, they do look really neat marching across the field, but they have an effect on gameplay as well. I promise.
Choosing formations will help you win a battle, but we don't want people playing the game to have to constantly be clicking all over an interface. There are some great games where you can fuss over the exact position of every pikeman in your army, but AOK is not one of them. Facing damage was an example of the kind of detail that slowed the game down. It became a click fest to get your armies turned around before the enemy hit you. Realistic? Perhaps. But it was not fun in an Age of Empires game.
Rest assured that any feature we came up with that wasn't fun got the boot. No one here wants to cram stuff into the game just to add more features. Quality over quantity. We want AOK to be perfect. Some features got cut (just like yards and yards of film get cut when making a movie), but for every facing damage that gets cut, there is a Market that works beautifully.
I can understand why it may seem like we are being secretive, but think about it from our perspective. There is still a bit of time before the game comes out, and if our most hardcore fans start thinking about AOK as "old news" then it is hard for us to keep up our enthusiasm to keep working such late hours on the product.
Right now, people fly into the forum talking about some new feature they heard about. The day that stops happening, participation in this forum, and all of the buzz about AOK will start to dry up and I will be very sad.
E3 is coming up and no doubt a lot of information will come out of it. The showcase series will also continue and may even branch out in topic. - ES Designer, Greg "DeathShrimp" Street
I think that is the last I'll say on the topic again. Good luck with the release ES, and congrats on going gold.Edit: (forgot to add this - its a review (they did notice) of AoK from IGN back in Oct 1999)
Quote:
Another new addition to the combat engine is the inclusion of combat formations and individual or group attack stances. When marching into battle, you can select from five different preset formations: Line, Box, Staggered, Flank and Horde, or you can choose to create your own custom formations (which I didn't find all that useful). The preset formations are actually very useful and do a pretty good job of intelligently preparing your troops for battle. In the Line setup, your units walk in a double file and turn to face the enemy as a wall if attacked. As a Box, your soldiers will move to protect the weaker units by forming four human walls around them. This is particularly useful in the multiplayer Regicide mode when you need to move your king across the playing field. I didn't see much use for the Staggered formation until the first time I faced down a Mangonel and it wiped out most of my fighting force with a few shots. When Staggered, your units are spread out enough that they won't be completely devastated by an area of effect attack. Flank splits your group in two and attempts to surround whatever you are attacking and finally, Horde just moves your troops in a disorganized mass. I don't know what this last one is really good for, but it looks good when you're attacking an enemy with Woad Raiders. FREEDOM!!
Combat stances are also very helpful. By setting your units to defend, attack, or stay put, you can put an end to those horrifying moments when you realize that your town is under attack and your entire army wandered off across the continent because they saw a villager. In attack mode, your units act pretty much like they did last time, moving to attack nearby enemies and keeping after them until somebody dies. Defend mode works in a similar fashion ? units will engage the enemy when they see 'em, but won't go too far afield before they return back to their original starting point. In Stand Your Ground mode, units will attack the enemy, but won't move from their current position. The final mode, No Attack, has your units stay put, and they won't attack even if they're being attacked. I'm not sure what this is good for, but it's a lot of fun to watch. Other new troop options include Patrol, which lets you set patrol points so your troops can cover a wider area, Guard, which will have your troop stay within sight of a selected building or unit and attack anything that tries to hurt it, and Follow, which has your unit tag along behind anyone you click on.
[This message has been edited by Wijitmaker (edited 09-26-2005 @ 06:26 PM).]