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Age of Empires III Heaven » Forums » General Discussions » The worth of a shipment?
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Topic Subject:The worth of a shipment?
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TheGoodEvil
Skirmisher
posted 11-02-05 08:07 PM EDT (US)         
I've been trying to find out exactly how many resources a shipment would be worth. Not the actual card but the time it takes to gain enough xp to actually get a shipment. Would anyone like to put a number to how much a shipment is worth?

I think if this is done it will help to sort out cards for what they are worth, for instance is your first shipment worth 300 resources or 200? if it's worth 200 then it would probably be best to send a 300 resource shipment from your home city... you know things like that.

I'd value a fort at 1000w and 200g so 1200 resources (that's about the amount of units a fort could kill on its own from my pov), if you are on your 6th shipment when you reach age 3 would it be more effective to send say 13 musketeers or a fort? I know some circumstances would warrant a fort over others but let's say you are winning a game, is a fort worth more than 13 musketeers? would 13 musketeers help you more than a fort? would a 10% boost in skirmisher attack be a better boost than a shipment of 1000 food?

I really want to dive into something like this because it all has such a huge impact on the game.

any thoughts?

TGE


TGE's RTS Blog, news, thoughts, and advice on RTS gaming

Able Company (my job)

"I've kicked more ass on accident than most people have on purpose"

AuthorReplies:
Mokon
Skirmisher
posted 11-02-05 08:22 PM EDT (US)     1 / 31       
hmmm interestng idea ill try to work on an idea i have

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  • Ceres629
    Skirmisher
    posted 11-02-05 08:33 PM EDT (US)     2 / 31       
    Since trading posts can be used to generated XP at the same rate as other resources, a comparison of 1XP to 1resource (maybe less since XP isnt a resource that can be used immediately, and only has one application in game which is to get shipments.

    Maybe 1XP = 0.75wood(or gold or food)

    parallax7d
    Skirmisher
    posted 11-02-05 09:12 PM EDT (US)     3 / 31       
    Everything in the game is divisible by the second. Not a unit of wood, or XP or anything else. The only constant is the 1 second of gathering time a settler produces. All else stems from this, and it should be your common denominator.

    I've been testing settler gather rates and have settled on some figures that I would consider their "real" in game gathering rates. Due to decay and walk time the gather rates specified by the game are grossly inaccurate.

    Anyhow, I won't go into my methodology, cause you should really test it yourself. Assuming that you will use Trees for all your wood, Mines for 75% of your coin, Plantations for 25% of your coin, Hunting for 75% of your food, and Mills and Berries for 25% of your food over an entire game I came up with these values. (All based on un-upgraded settlers - but it scales relatively with upgrades...)

    .6 food per second
    .54 coin per second
    .49 wood per second

    This means everything in the game, except unique things like the fort, mercenaries, baloons etc.. is convertable into seconds.

    300 food crate = 500 seconds
    300 coin crate = 556 seconds
    300 wood crate = 612 seconds
    2 settler card = 333 seconds + 2 seconds for every second they gather resources until the end of the game


    Obviously the 2 settlers are the best card to play, they will give you more return on investment then even the wood crates about 3 minutes after you play the card.

    Similarly you can convert all military units into seconds. A pikeman is 148 seconds. A Musketeer 171 etc. Here is the buildable land units listing. I hope this helps.

    Abus Gun264
    Cassador208
    Cavalry Archer288
    Cossack264
    Crossbowman156
    Cuirassier528
    Culverin945
    Doppelsoldner356
    Dragoon317
    Falconet945
    Great Bombard1315
    Grenadier311
    Halberdier213
    Hussar348
    Janissary213
    Lancer350
    Longbowman182
    Musketeer171
    Oprichnik261
    Organ Gun760
    Pikeman148
    Rodelero173
    Ruyter189
    Skirmisher204
    Strelet104
    Uhlan269
    War Wagon528

    [This message has been edited by parallax7d (edited 11-02-2005 @ 09:13 PM).]

    StonewallJ
    Seraph Emeritus
    (id: Conquistador34)
    posted 11-02-05 09:19 PM EDT (US)     4 / 31       
    Hm, interesting idea. I believ a fort is more valuable for the sole factor that it can not be made without the card. I believe shipments that can not me nade over in the New World are more valuable. However 6 musketeers, or 8 pikemen can help more in the eearly game to provide a n early defense and save resources for economic upgrades, and settlers.

    ps, parallax7d, can you IM me or something, maybe e-mail, or whisper me on ESO@ (Stonewall1863) do you remember we played that wicked laggy game, with the map with the watter in the middle (Carribean?) Your ally was yellow. What happened in that game? Just IM me or something. Thanks


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    ShadowZX
    Skirmisher
    posted 11-02-05 09:20 PM EDT (US)     5 / 31       
    ^(2 posts above) Wow, he has a point. As for me i just callt he card depending on the circumstance. IMO the 300 resorces card which can be called unlimited times is more important that 600 resorce card which can only be called once. I would rather have techs over units most of the time. Techs that make them cheaper, stronger etc. (sorry if i am not exactly on topic)

    [This message has been edited by ShadowZX (edited 11-02-2005 @ 09:40 PM).]

    parallax7d
    Skirmisher
    posted 11-02-05 09:35 PM EDT (US)     6 / 31       
    Hey stonewall, I actually kept playing and beat them. One of the other guys dropped out, and come to find out they had like zero defense on their island. We had a complete fortress of doom going on on our island compared to those laggers.
    TheGoodEvil
    Skirmisher
    posted 11-02-05 09:56 PM EDT (US)     7 / 31       
    nice now I just need to evaluate some more things then I'll be able to think up some whacky crap

    would anyone happen to know at what amount of XP do shipments come? like what to aim for to get a shipment? say there is a time that xp gathers (it keeps gathering steadily, my guess is the gathering of other resources causes xp to gather constantly) so lets say if you could time how long it would take to get each shipment if you time your build orders specifically for shipments (i'm thinking spain here) like a house gives you a spot of xp and gaurdians give you a set amount of xp per kill so you could actually formulate an almost exact time of when your shipments would come and what you could do to make them come even faster

    I think this would be interesting, I might not be sounding too clear because I have a cold and the fever is murdering my ability to concentrate on anything outside of breathing

    Thanks!
    TGE


    TGE's RTS Blog, news, thoughts, and advice on RTS gaming

    Able Company (my job)

    "I've kicked more ass on accident than most people have on purpose"

    [This message has been edited by TheGoodEvil (edited 11-02-2005 @ 10:00 PM).]

    StonewallJ
    Seraph Emeritus
    (id: Conquistador34)
    posted 11-02-05 10:13 PM EDT (US)     8 / 31       

    Quote:

    Hey stonewall, I actually kept playing and beat them. One of the other guys dropped out, and come to find out they had like zero defense on their island. We had a complete fortress of doom going on on our island compared to those laggers.


    Yeah, I was with Red? maybe, and I couldnt read the dialogue during the lag, but I saw you say you were going to report him or somthing (why?) and then your ally(The Pusher, yellow?) dropped out, I tried to land you a few times, but it lagged a lot, then it syaed that you and my ally resigned. Did you, or was my computer messed up? Maybe I lost my connection or something.

    [][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][]
    [][][][][][][][][][] Stonewall J [][][][][][][][][][][]
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    GallowsX
    Skirmisher
    posted 11-03-05 00:44 AM EDT (US)     9 / 31       
    i am curious in how the villager cards compare with the faster resource collection cards, any idea???

    say 2 free villagers as opposed to the furrier card

    Sterling_Boo
    Skirmisher
    posted 11-03-05 00:52 AM EDT (US)     10 / 31       
    I think a fort is way to overpowered for a single age 3 card. I mean a fort or a single falconet or a few crossbows? It does depend on the circumstances, but I think there is no way anyone would not have the fort in their deck.
    Ceres629
    Skirmisher
    posted 11-03-05 04:47 AM EDT (US)     11 / 31       
    I thought measuring resources and values in terms of villager seconds was already established since AoK? I've used it for every RTS game since I read about it online a while back.

    Any how, it is a good way to measure it in aoe3 especially since villagers do not have to return resources to a drop of point.

    One more point I would like to make though is that you factor in the population as a part of their cost. A falconet indirectly costs you 50wood since in takes up 5 population slots (or half of a house)

    ToNiC
    Skirmisher
    posted 11-03-05 05:31 AM EDT (US)     12 / 31       
    I just thought of the same question as gallows, never know for sure which one to pick as first card...
    Ceres629
    Skirmisher
    posted 11-03-05 06:09 AM EDT (US)     13 / 31       

    Quote:

    I just thought of the same question as gallows, never know for sure which one to pick as first card...

    The calculation is pretty easy but if you have 10 or more villagers on food, then the furrier card is better than 2 villager card.

    Gundanium
    Skirmisher
    posted 11-03-05 07:34 AM EDT (US)     14 / 31       
    The gather rates in game aren't innaccurate.. factoring in walk time just adds to the innaccuracy anyways.
    http://www.mrfixitonline.com/readPosting.asp?hdr=&PostingId=1710600

    for all ACCURATE gather rate information, for each type of villager/resource source.


    [img]http://www.elpea.net/stats/Martymcfly.png[/img]

    [This message has been edited by Gundanium (edited 11-03-2005 @ 07:36 AM).]

    Gamer man
    Skirmisher
    posted 11-03-05 07:38 AM EDT (US)     15 / 31       
    yes you would have to take into account the cost of housing (50w > seconds + Build Time), but not at an even 0.1 house per popslot. That is oversimplifying it. Instead you have to take the proportion of people who will use that house over the course of the entire game. obviously villagers used the full .1 of the house because they are going to take that popslot the entire game, however military units are going to die/get rebuilt/die/get rebuilt, and thus they share the house slot with their predicessor and successor. Because of this, they only use up an even smaller portion of the house cost.

    Moooers are remembered, chirpers never die, splashers are invincable

    Caboto
    Skirmisher
    posted 11-03-05 11:46 AM EDT (US)     16 / 31       
    IMO, the settler/wagon/coureur cards are worth a little more than the VS used to make them, and the same with cards like Furrier (how would you compare it? Would you compare to the costs for upgrades in the market?).

    As far as hom many XP you get, and how long it takes, I wonder if it's over-analyzing it, since XP are gained by doing things which you would otherwise do anyway, with the exceptions of Trading posts, or treasures/killing guardians (by the way, I wish that the animal guardians counted as huntables).

    I do see value in comparing military units though, but even then if you're facing cavalry, those pikemen are going to seem better (more efficient) than the crossbowmen right?

    Hmm, interesting thought about adding the cost of housing to the cost of creating a unit. That never occured to me.

    Does anybody know where I can find the creation time for a villager/coureur? I looked in the proto.xml file, but I couldn't find it. Also, what is meant by "Train Points", and is "Bounty" the same as XP?

    Thanks.

    ES_DeathShrimp
    VIP
    posted 11-03-05 11:49 AM EDT (US)     17 / 31       
    Train Points is the time in seconds to train that unit.

    Bounty is how much XP you get for killing a unit.

    Steel_Cat
    Skirmisher
    posted 11-03-05 12:26 PM EDT (US)     18 / 31       
    Another couple points I'd like to add are:

    1. You cannot accurately say how much a card is 'worth' because you gain XP by killing things and building things... not just steadily over time.

    2. Shipments of military units can push you over your pop limit...that is way more valuable than the actual resources or time it takes to create them.


    "Its never the things that happen to us that upset us, its our view of them." -Epictetus
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    Ceres629
    Skirmisher
    posted 11-03-05 12:51 PM EDT (US)     19 / 31       

    Quote:

    1. You cannot accurately say how much a card is 'worth' because you gain XP by killing things and building things... not just steadily over time.

    Yeah you can, if you ask me XP is very similar to favour in AoM (specifically Norse) It does have a definate value hence you can say how much a shipment is worth.

    parallax7d
    Skirmisher
    posted 11-03-05 12:52 PM EDT (US)     20 / 31       
    Gund, are you saying those specified gather values are what the settlers actually gather over time in the game? You are absolutely wrong. Test it out. Take 10 settlers, and have them hunt for 20 minutes.

    If all you take into consideration is the gather rate, then that would mean you should have around 10,080 food. You will find that you do not. You should have closer to 7,200. It's reality vs. theory my friend.


    And Steel_Cat, yes you are correct that the "whole" value of cards is greatly influenced by shifting in game variables like population and many other circumstances. Because there is no way to account for these values, you have to distill the value down to a value based on constants. The second is the only constant, thus it's the only reliable way to assign value to cards.

    It's not accurate, it's quite inaccurate, but it makes you think and realise what cards are worth more when everything else is equal.

    Sicario
    Skirmisher
    posted 11-03-05 02:26 PM EDT (US)     21 / 31       
    About the XP:
    Build-bounty in promo.xml is the amount of XP you get from creating such an unit/building etc.
    Villager is 10xp for instance,
    and you seem to get 4 xp / 2 seconds steadily in age 1...

    And I dont seem to get any XP from gathering resources...

    will do some more 'research' when i have some more time to spare.
    or i'll make some script so I can process data from the xml file fast it shouldn't be that hard.

    [This message has been edited by Sicario (edited 11-03-2005 @ 02:28 PM).]

    majpain
    Skirmisher
    posted 11-03-05 02:41 PM EDT (US)     22 / 31       
    parallax7d
    Skirmisher
    posted 11-03-05 03:20 PM EDT (US)     23 / 31       
    Yeah, a single mortar is kinda weak that late in the game, but if your hard up for wood (wow, bad pun?) and don't have an armory built (or left standing), that mortar card saves you 400 wood (plus 350 coin).
    Khaleb
    Skirmisher
    posted 11-03-05 08:28 PM EDT (US)     24 / 31       
    And is faster "buildt" than a foundry + mortar.
    This emergency-value is something that cannot be factored in easily. And while from a pure villager-second standpoint it is always stupid to send a box of food instead of wood, a certain strategic plan still can make it reasonable (e.g. very fast colonial time for whichever purpose).
    You cant always base these decisions on an abstract calculation. Otherwise ES could throw out more than 50% of all the cards with their next patch

    [This message has been edited by Khaleb (edited 11-03-2005 @ 08:31 PM).]

    Episthene
    Skirmisher
    posted 11-03-05 10:31 PM EDT (US)     25 / 31       
    For the crates, you will have to take out the seconds needed to gather those crates as well. So a 300 food shipment will be more like 200 when you are hunting, 275 with unupgraded mills, etc.

    I think the XP is not linear. Each shipment takes more and more XP as time goes on. It could be easily tested by only building a trading post and record the time it took. But early game, you can see the XP go up when you kill an animal. Later, you barely see it move when you kill a unit. If not, a big battle would be good for 10 shipments or something.

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