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Age of Empires III Heaven » Forums » General Discussions » Deathshrimp, did your team even consider Fast Fortressing?
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Topic Subject:Deathshrimp, did your team even consider Fast Fortressing?
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Diceclock
Skirmisher
posted 01-10-06 01:59 PM EDT (US)         
Deathshrimp in another thread:

Quote:

FWIW, several months before ship the balance problems we were worried about were the following. Many (all?) of these were fixed:

British uber-boom followed with Musketeers / Grenadiers
French uber-boom followed with Cuiassiers
Dutch uber-boom followed by lots of Mercs
British Longbow rush
Ottoman Grenadier rush
German Doppelsoldner "rush"
Russian Strelet rush
Ottoman aggressive Advanced Trading Posts
Dutch or Portuguese Outpost turtle
The all Heavy Cannon / Bombard army

Notice in there, they had no concerns over Fast Fortressing or Native Rushing. To me that shows that the balance team really didn't have an understanding of how to best use each Civ, via those two proven strategies.

Now that FF and Native Rush has proven the dominant practice, do you plan on addressing those in a balance patch anytime soon and if so when?

AuthorReplies:
somme
Skirmisher
posted 01-10-06 02:11 PM EDT (US)     1 / 34       
You've got a point. I guess some strategies had to come through that the balance team didn't pick up. Although ff seems like a fairly straight forward strat and I'd be quite suprised if they didn't think of it. Maybe they just didn't think it would be a decent strategy.
Mokon
Skirmisher
posted 01-10-06 02:16 PM EDT (US)     2 / 34       
um a lot of those up there are FF... yes es thought of a ff....

Mokon | | | AoE3 Rate 2200~ | | |
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  • WH_demoneyekyo
    Skirmisher
    posted 01-10-06 02:23 PM EDT (US)     3 / 34       
    O_O

    they can't test every strat, since it took even expert like 2 month to realize FF is a great strat. at start, most expert think FF is a terrible idea.

    making strats & testng it require a hell lot of "times"
    since u have to put lots of stuff into consideration. & also, b/c of this *** home city & card thing, it make things even more complex.

    as for native, i heard from swinger that it aren't ment to work that way. (and it will get fixed next patch)


    Stop spamming! No one care about ur damn post count!
    Graceless
    Skirmisher
    posted 01-10-06 02:26 PM EDT (US)     4 / 34       
    The fast 3rd age was a common strat in both aok and aom, so naturally they gave it try. The problem with games like these is that when you're trying to nerf some strat, sometimes you end up buffing a different one.

    6 minutes remaining.
    Pipes
    Skirmisher
    posted 01-10-06 02:33 PM EDT (US)     5 / 34       
    A fast fortress is no more powerful than, and can often be defeated by a good colonial attack. It's pretty hard to break out the merc cards when you have no houses.

    Perhaps you newbs should play a few more games and try more than 1 civ before screaming bloody murder in every post.

    Mokon
    Skirmisher
    posted 01-10-06 02:39 PM EDT (US)     6 / 34       

    Quote:

    A fast fortress is no more powerful than, and can often be defeated by a good colonial attack. It's pretty hard to break out the merc cards when you have no houses.

    Um no... A properly done FF can hold off almost any type of early attack, perhaps save for an otto rush and a sonora rush. I play vs ppl such as mozory and black ice spain and even if the other guy rushes u its quite easy to defeat a colonial attack with a ff. I am not sure when the last time i stayed in age2 for more than 5 minutes was, it really just isnt worth it. On great plains I have stopped natives rushing in favor of a ff... vs otto i always ff now and it works most of the time

    this is a great example... the guy did a jan and abus rush, my ff worked quite well vs it...

    http://www.agecommunity.com/stats/GameStats.aspx?loc=en-US&GameID=9551839a-f902-a94e-a8ae-583e13dd98e6&m d=ZS_Supremacy


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  • [This message has been edited by Mokon (edited 01-10-2006 @ 02:42 PM).]

    Seancahn
    Skirmisher
    posted 01-10-06 02:39 PM EDT (US)     7 / 34       
    FF owns the Dutch though no arguing that. Ive been practicing my colonial rushes jsut to stop all these FF people. Im even managing to have my rush repelled and still winning cause poeple think mercs will win them the game.

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    majpain
    Skirmisher
    posted 01-10-06 02:47 PM EDT (US)     8 / 34       
    lol Dutch FF uber boom followed by mercs.I dun think so Dutch IMO have the weakest FF not to mention weakest merc cards.

    [This message has been edited by majpain (edited 01-10-2006 @ 02:48 PM).]

    WH_demoneyekyo
    Skirmisher
    posted 01-10-06 02:58 PM EDT (US)     9 / 34       

    Quote:

    lol Dutch FF uber boom followed by mercs.I dun think so Dutch IMO have the weakest FF not to mention weakest merc cards.

    if u ever played _daut_ u'll kinda get an idea of how deadly the dutch FF (rytuer spam backup by skrim) can be.

    i have some rec, but too lazy to upload

    anyhooo, dutch FF for ryteur seem sweet.


    Stop spamming! No one care about ur damn post count!
    achilleas
    Skirmisher
    posted 01-10-06 02:58 PM EDT (US)     10 / 34       
    Natives rush is a very fun part of the game..

    The only imba native rush is SONORA! damn i never lost like that .. it was embarassing.

    unjugon
    Skirmisher
    posted 01-10-06 03:02 PM EDT (US)     11 / 34       
    Lately I am reading that a slow "fast fortress" (at around 9 minutes) beats a fast fortress, but I have seen no evidence.
    What you guys think?

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    Mokon
    Skirmisher
    posted 01-10-06 03:16 PM EDT (US)     12 / 34       
    yes normally it will since ur eco will be slighlty better, normally u can raid him a tad in age2, and u can still get uber age3 uber fairly quickly

    Mokon | | | AoE3 Rate 2200~ | | |
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  • XxEmperorxX
    Skirmisher
    posted 01-10-06 03:27 PM EDT (US)     13 / 34       
    I think that ff is the funniest thing to watch when a noob does it...hes like, woot veteran pikes, im leet haxorzzz now...

    Quote:

    and u can still get uber age3 uber fairly quickly

    IT BURNS!!!!!!! too..many..ubers...in..one...section...

    uber is not a cool word, in fact it practicly screams LOOK AT ME IM AN UBER LOSER!!!


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    Mokon
    Skirmisher
    posted 01-10-06 03:41 PM EDT (US)     14 / 34       

    Quote:

    IT BURNS!!!!!!! too..many..ubers...in..one...section...

    Wow, i think my mind was drifting... I have no idea why i even said uber in there I need to sleep

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  • fryBASS
    Skirmisher
    (id: LO12DS_Frylock)
    posted 01-10-06 04:25 PM EDT (US)     15 / 34       
    O DAMMIT... and i thought i was being semi-creative when i started ff with spain the other day :@ i'm always a step behind

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    Ceres629
    Skirmisher
    posted 01-10-06 04:30 PM EDT (US)     16 / 34       

    Quote:

    A fast fortress is no more powerful than, and can often be defeated by a good colonial attack. It's pretty hard to break out the merc cards when you have no houses.

    Perhaps you newbs should play a few more games and try more than 1 civ before screaming bloody murder in every post.

    With that post, the only person who looks like 'newb' is you.

    NAT
    Banned
    posted 01-10-06 05:52 PM EDT (US)     17 / 34       
    I never go for a native rush, I much prefer the strelet rush

    Quoted from Mokon:

    uber age3 uber

    *chuckles*

    Makita
    Skirmisher
    posted 01-10-06 05:53 PM EDT (US)     18 / 34       
    I think what Ceres (god bless him) means to say is that you don't need houses for all those mercs. IIRC, you only need one extra pop slot to send the card.
    xentelian
    Skirmisher
    posted 01-10-06 06:26 PM EDT (US)     19 / 34       
    FF is not a guarantee if enemy is raiding your villagers with cavalry or has the infantry with decent siege to take out your tc/outpost (holcan spearman, grenadiers, pikemen, etc) before then.
    Pipes
    Skirmisher
    posted 01-10-06 09:31 PM EDT (US)     20 / 34       
    Mokon, i couldnt see any games of you actually beating the players you mentioned? Id love to see a rec of your ff beating black_ice_spain colonial rush. if you have one that is.
    Jiggy
    Skirmisher
    posted 01-10-06 09:47 PM EDT (US)     21 / 34       

    Quote:

    Dutch uber-boom followed by lots of Mercs

    I find this part the best. So they took it away from the dutch, and gave it to the germans?

    Not that I have anything against the german civ, just it seems funny. They do exactly what ES was afraid of the dutch doing....

    Diceclock
    Skirmisher
    posted 01-11-06 09:31 AM EDT (US)     22 / 34       
    ES thinks that the Dutch will increase their resource gathering rate more quickly than any other Civ. They think that the Dutch will sit there entirely unmolested for 15 minutes in Colonial building 8 banks, and have a super duper economy and a great rush army ready to go at the 20 minute mark.

    What ES didn't realize, is that the game is played twice as fast as they had thought. The Dutch and many other Civs lose before having a chance to do anything at all. Early advantages of French/Otto and to a lesser extent Spain/Germany are so insurmountable, that the Rus/Brit/Ports/Dutch have no chance of overcoming them. Before the game came out, people would hit Colonial in 7:00, and start their first Skirmishes at 10:00, and nobody would dream of fortressing before 15:00.

    [This message has been edited by Diceclock (edited 01-11-2006 @ 10:10 AM).]

    TheGoodEvil
    Skirmisher
    posted 01-11-06 09:41 AM EDT (US)     23 / 34       
    I guess I have been wrong every time 15 french cuirs tear apart 40 russian halbs... but appearently nothing is wrong with french cuirs, FF is just a new strat, Abus guns are fine, and french vils are just right.

    Scroll down.
    http://forum.agecommunity.com/ibb/posts.aspx?postID=96637

    GG
    TGE


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    Ceres629
    Skirmisher
    posted 01-11-06 09:45 AM EDT (US)     24 / 34       

    Quote:

    The Dutch and many other Civs loose before having a chance to do anything at all. Early advantages of French/Otto and to a lesser extent Spain/Germany are so insurmountable, that the Rus/Brit/Ports/Dutch have no chance of overcoming them.

    I think you make a very good point. The top civs in the game are those with a fast start who can rush well, Ottos and spanish have the fastest starts and they can use their early advantage to crush the advantage of non-rush civs very easily. So it is almost like a double bonus to rushing civs. French have a fast start too but unlike spanish and otto, they remain just as strong mid game and then late game and don't fade away.

    eg Ports get an extra TC, but do you think you get to USE the extra TC much for producing villagers against a rusher? No, because they will force you to build military units and in that way your bonus of having an extra TC fortproduction is gone. So Ports bonus just gets reduced to being a free big tower.

    Dutch have age2 skirms and banks, but again the faster civs can either rush dutch if they try boom (negating one advantage of being able to boom in colonial with banks) or FF against dutch (negating their other advantage of early skirms since if the enemy FF's you have to get to fortress yourself, so your age2 skirms don't even get used!)

    How do you negate the ottos, spanish or french advantage of a fast start? You can't. The boom civs need have their advantages more difficult to be cancelled out, while I think brits can still boom even if rushed, I know frome experience Ports can't and it seems dutch can't either. The gold cost of aging up to fortress increased to 1500. With resource shipments this isn't a big ask still, but is an essential balance.

    [This message has been edited by Ceres629 (edited 01-11-2006 @ 09:47 AM).]

    ES_DeathShrimp
    VIP
    posted 01-11-06 06:26 PM EDT (US)     25 / 34       
    Yes, we did look at fast Fortressing and Native rushing. You should have seen those Holcan Spearmen a few weeks before shipping.

    Fast Fortress is a tough thing to evaluate just yet. A few weeks ago, everyone was convinved that rushing was the only way to play the game. We knew that getting to Age3 fast was a good counter to a rush, because you can take advantage of the better unit types (already upgraded Skirms for example) and Cards. Depending on your definition, you could call a FF a boom because the player is going nuts on economy, or you could say it isn't a boom because the player might hurt their economy going up so fast.

    Do we need to patch it? I'm not sure yet. If we had been too hasty and patched the game to make rushing harder, then I think the FF would be even stronger now. Our balance team was still convinced at the time we shipped that turtling was too easy, so it may be that the community is still going to discover that as a way to get to Age4 before launching a big attack. We'll see.

    One other thing to consider is that we spent a lot of time trying to balance the game for both 2 and 4 players (with some but less attention spent on larger games). We think 4 players games are a lot more fun, but it does change the balance quite a bit, and it's hard to come up with one set of numbers that works in both situations. FF (and rushing) work really differently in a team game.

    I'm much less worried about Native rushing. I think it's fun to do, and you do get some advanced warning that it's happening. We wanted maps like GP to be Native-centric, where ignoring Trading Posts was at your peril. There are a couple of Card combos that may make Natives too good though.

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