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Age of Empires III Heaven » Forums » General Discussions » Deathshrimp, did your team even consider Fast Fortressing?
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Topic Subject:Deathshrimp, did your team even consider Fast Fortressing?
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Diceclock
Skirmisher
posted 01-10-06 01:59 PM EDT (US)         
Deathshrimp in another thread:

Quote:

FWIW, several months before ship the balance problems we were worried about were the following. Many (all?) of these were fixed:

British uber-boom followed with Musketeers / Grenadiers
French uber-boom followed with Cuiassiers
Dutch uber-boom followed by lots of Mercs
British Longbow rush
Ottoman Grenadier rush
German Doppelsoldner "rush"
Russian Strelet rush
Ottoman aggressive Advanced Trading Posts
Dutch or Portuguese Outpost turtle
The all Heavy Cannon / Bombard army

Notice in there, they had no concerns over Fast Fortressing or Native Rushing. To me that shows that the balance team really didn't have an understanding of how to best use each Civ, via those two proven strategies.

Now that FF and Native Rush has proven the dominant practice, do you plan on addressing those in a balance patch anytime soon and if so when?

AuthorReplies:
Elpea
Hal
(id: lp_usa)
posted 01-11-06 07:13 PM EDT (US)     26 / 34       

Quote:

I guess I have been wrong every time 15 french cuirs tear apart 40 russian halbs... but appearently nothing is wrong with french cuirs, FF is just a new strat, Abus guns are fine, and french vils are just right.


omg.

ZhaZ
Skirmisher
posted 01-12-06 01:24 AM EDT (US)     27 / 34       
Natives are even worse than Fast Fortressing in some maps due to the clear imbalance factor. If you remove FF as dominating strat this will become a huge problem again as natives really are very strong.

Sonora needs to be fixed. If you don't play Ottomans or Spanish you're always gonna be the last one to get the Tradepost at azteks up. And if there are only one aztek at the map you might as well resign. THis is not only my opinion but most top players I know.

Cuirassiers aren't a big problem for most civs. I play france, dutch, spanish and germans. WWs and Rodeleros make it impossible to make any cuirassiers. Dragoons/Ruyters do very well vs them as well.


[img]http://www.mastersgames.de/esostats/NoX,qaghan,0,5.png[/img]

[This message has been edited by ZhaZ (edited 01-12-2006 @ 05:48 PM).]

WH_demoneyekyo
Skirmisher
posted 01-12-06 01:35 AM EDT (US)     28 / 34       

Quote:

Sonora needs to be fixed. If you play Ottomans or Spanish you're always gonna be the last one to get the Tradepost at azteks up.

no. lol

otto will be one of the first (since they get like 3-4 crate of wood on that map).

the last civ to get the native will be DUTCH! (if they gonnaget it that is....rofl)

u people just gonna think whats more important, native or econ? caz when trying to take the native before ur enemy, ur gonna age up much later then enemy.

for me, i think all map r okei except for amazon & taxes.

anyhooo, native shipment just gotta limit the amount of native coming out per tribe.


Stop spamming! No one care about ur damn post count!
lachlan
Skirmisher
posted 01-12-06 01:55 AM EDT (US)     29 / 34       
I can't believe there isn't an elevation bonus.That I just don't understand, I mean its a strategy game, terrain is supposed to matter.
ES_DeathShrimp
VIP
posted 01-12-06 04:30 PM EDT (US)     30 / 34       
Jeez, what a tough crowd.

I think we've posted several times now that we think the French and Ottomans need attention. We know the Abus Guns are too good.

I'm going to still maintain that it's too early to assert that fast Fortressing is ruining the game. If we had made the same quick decision to fix the perceived OP rushing, just think where we would be now.

Remember, Russian Halberdiers are cheaper and weaker. You'd need something like 50 of them to match 15 Cuirassiers in cost. Try it with a different civ.

BloTo
Skirmisher
posted 01-12-06 04:37 PM EDT (US)     31 / 34       
so, exactly how are russian meant to counte cuirassiers. tartar do nothing consideriong they suck at hit and run and are owned the minute the cuirs make it through the meatsheild, which doesnt usualy take long.

the point is, most civs have no way to counter the cuir without have 2-4 different types of units an one army, and then microing like hell. all the french has to do is put allmost all his supirior eco on food and gold, spam 1 unit, and let them reek havoc.

i know you acknowledge the french and ottomans needing attention, but from the Q n A with sandy (who is meant to be in charge of balancing) he seems to hate the mere thought that cuirassiers are uncounterable.

P.S. why do holcans have more seige damage than grens in colonial, and cost half as much? you never thought this slightly ridiculous? putting a cheap unit that totaly out classes its expensive (and unique to a few civs) rival? answers.


Eso: scuzz

[This message has been edited by BloTo (edited 01-12-2006 @ 04:41 PM).]

schildpad
Skirmisher
posted 01-12-06 05:09 PM EDT (US)     32 / 34       
because all natives are better then their normal counterpart. You ever considered that? Imo mayan spearman isnt a problem at all, you can counter easy. the problem is the insane ammount of healers you get with card.


if a french player only makes cuirs you have only to make 1 or 2 kind of units, heavy infantry and ranged cav


"such a kind fellow!" ~ ķįŋğ_Ćħŗĩš_ĬĬ

Furby killer should be crowned leader of AOE forum ~ [SW_GD]Teutonic

ZhaZ
Skirmisher
posted 01-12-06 05:54 PM EDT (US)     33 / 34       
Obviously I missed out on the "don't play" part Demon. These civs are the ones that get the natives easiest.

At competive play you're very wrong however:
Sonora is a bigger balance issue than any other map.
NO you wont age up slower. Ottomans mostly make a tradepost anyway. Spanish just needs to keep a dog thereŽ, they can start building the tradepost when going to Classical. Even for other civs I believe it is often worth it to get the aztek camp quickly. FF? Always nice but don't wanna do it vs holcan spearmen and aztek mass however.


[img]http://www.mastersgames.de/esostats/NoX,qaghan,0,5.png[/img]
ES_DeathShrimp
VIP
posted 01-13-06 06:22 PM EDT (US)     34 / 34       

Quote:

the point is, most civs have no way to counter the cuir without have 2-4 different types of units an one army, and then microing like hell. all the french has to do is put allmost all his supirior eco on food and gold, spam 1 unit, and let them reek havoc.

DS: Sandy's point was that it's the "superior eco on food and gold" that's the problem, not the Cuirassier itself. In other words, if we weakened Cuirassiers and then the French start spamming unstoppable Guard Hussar armies, we haven't really solved the problem.

Ideally, you should only see gigantic armies of FU Cuirassiers if you completely ignored the French for a long period of time, and that player boomed like mad. Even under that scenario, if you went into his town instead of facing the Cuirassier army, he shouldn't have a whole lot there to keep his villagers and buildings alive.

We are looking at Dragoons and Cav Archers to make sure they are as effective as they should be. I used to be able to bleed French cavalry players dry with Dragoon armies, though that's just one data point and something may have changed since then.

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