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Age of Empires III Heaven » Forums » General Discussions » *MAJOR* Cuirassier Bug Discovered
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Topic Subject:*MAJOR* Cuirassier Bug Discovered
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ultimitsu
Skirmisher
posted 01-28-06 04:57 PM EDT (US)         
this time its not the 20% ranged resistance, its not the splash damage, but the extra HP/Attack they get from upgrading!!

how upgrade works is on vet level, they get extra 20% hp + attack of the base level. on guard level they receive another 30% as well as the initial 20%, but both based on the base stats, so guard effectively gives you +50% overall.

then you have royal guard, which gives you extra 10%.

now that is 160% of the base stats, or 133% of the vet level(160/120).

ok here is where cuirs dont follow this rule -- they dont have a sub-vet base stats!! their base stats is vet stats!!

what does it mean? it means their royal guard upgrade actually gives them 40% on top of the vet level, where most royal guard only gives 33% on top of the vet level.

age3 cuirs: 500 hp, 30 att
age3 vet mus: 180 hp 15 melee
age4 royal cuirs: 700 hp, 42 att
age4 royal musk: 240hp, 20 melee


dont think 7% is nothing, 7% is winning or losing, it means they last 7% longer + they kill you 7% faster.

you may say is it because they are age3+ only unit?

Maybe yes? halb gets the same system, (180hp in age3, 233 hp in age4 normal guard) but halbs are not OP.

And no! because port goons are not on that system, port goons are upgraded on base hp of 200(age2), not 240(age3), even they are age3 unit and can only be received in age2 by a card which NO ONE actually uses.

then again cassadore is on age3-stats-being-base-rate system , yet you can get them in age2 if you allied with french and he used team age2 skirm card.

i think this is something definitely needs a fix.

====
update: the gap widens even further in imperial.


i posted this here by request of ceres.

AuthorReplies:
Cy Marlayne
Skirmisher
posted 01-31-06 01:43 PM EDT (US)     26 / 53       
Dispite this bug, Cuirassiers are still very, very counterable. I can't understand why I'm the only person who seems to not have a problem with facing them.

My eyes glimmer with joy when I face a French player who trains nothing but Cuirassiers, even after I spank his silly army time and time again.


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MNBob
Skirmisher
posted 01-31-06 01:48 PM EDT (US)     27 / 53       
Cy: Which civ do you use and what do you use?

Most people agree that Germans can counter French.

Mokon
Skirmisher
posted 01-31-06 01:51 PM EDT (US)     28 / 53       

Quote:

Dispite this bug

It isnt a bug....

Quote:

Cy: Which civ do you use and what do you use?
Most people agree that Germans can counter French.

All civs can counter cuis


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  • Cy Marlayne
    Skirmisher
    posted 01-31-06 02:38 PM EDT (US)     29 / 53       

    Quote:

    All civs can counter cuis

    Amen.


    And I don't play German often anymore.


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    ultimitsu
    Skirmisher
    posted 01-31-06 03:16 PM EDT (US)     30 / 53       
    some clarification

    i originally posted this under the title of "yet another OP-ness of the mighty cuirassier". i did not consider this to be a bug at the time, i posted it here because ceres wanted me to post it under the same title as his dragoon post.

    i know it is not a programming bug. but at this point i think it is a design bug. i still think it is, even though deathshrimp said it is intended.


    now we know every unit suppose to have a effective counter in every civ. but we also know cuirassier are the most well rounded and most powerful unit in the game, most civs only have one or 2 effective counter units.

    the effect of this design bug is that these effective counters that were effective in age3 will no longer be effective in age4 by over 10%, and less effective by over 17% in age5, because these effective counters are not age3 units.


    why do most people think there is no counter to cuirs?

    because in a late game battle, there isnt.

    to put it simple, cav suppose to have advantages VS light infantry and art, but big disdavantage to heavy infantry, heavy infantry suppose to have big advanatge VS cav, but big disadvantage VS light infantry / art.

    in the case of cuirssaier it is not disadvantaged VS heavy infantry at all, it almost beats them due to their excessive HP and splash damage, so while heavy infatry do 2~3 times damage to them, they do 2~4 times damage back!

    now in a HI VS cuirs only battle, they will be more than less equal, but the problem is cuirs supporting LI and ART, they kill opp HI with ease, from a safe distance, but nothing from HI's side can effectively kill cuirs in the sameway. cannon do pretty crappy against them too (1/3 damage compared to enemy's cannon to your HI).

    [This message has been edited by ultimitsu (edited 01-31-2006 @ 03:18 PM).]

    Ceres629
    Skirmisher
    posted 01-31-06 03:27 PM EDT (US)     31 / 53       

    Quote:

    All civs can counter cuis

    I ROFL @ this!

    As ports my FU jinete dragoons got mowed down time and time again by curs.

    I put FU muskets in front of them... same thing.

    I learnt a long time ago that massing dragoons doesn't work against FU curs.

    [This message has been edited by Ceres629 (edited 01-31-2006 @ 03:29 PM).]

    Mokon
    Skirmisher
    posted 01-31-06 03:28 PM EDT (US)     32 / 53       

    Quote:

    why do most people think there is no counter to cuirs?

    because in a late game battle, there isnt.

    Halbs, Musk, Goons, Spainish Pikes, Rods, Dops, War Wagons.... Their are plenty of units that counter them late game. Watch my cuis recorded game test....

    [quote]As ports my FU jinete dragoons got mowed down time and time again by curs.

    I put FU muskets in front of them... same thing.

    I learnt a long time ago that massing dragoons doesn't work against FU curs.
    [quote]???? Its the truth.... Watch this game.... http://aoe3.heavengames.com/cgi-bin/forums/display.cgi?action=ct&f=15,26885,0,365

    You arnt doing something right if musk/jins are beating them. Non RG musk and goons will pwn em.. I dont wanna think how well RG ones would do.


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  • [This message has been edited by Mokon (edited 01-31-2006 @ 03:35 PM).]

    Ceres629
    Skirmisher
    posted 01-31-06 03:32 PM EDT (US)     33 / 53       
    I dunno about game test but I know i had many marathon games where my FU Jinetes just couldn't kill the FU curs. The curs had almost 1000HP and my dragoons were dying 5 at a time almost faster than i could replace them.

    Then just when I thought all the curs were gone... in come 30 more.

    It was pathetic.

    This happened like 10 times before I realise FU dragoons don't kill curs anywhere near fast enough. Whatever skirm or cannon backup the french has just lays waste to your goons.

    About that link:

    Add skirms or cannons and then watch the ownage the french army inflicts. If you build any artillery against FU curs you are just asking to be owned. The curs just run straight past any meat shield and own your cannons.

    [This message has been edited by Ceres629 (edited 01-31-2006 @ 03:34 PM).]

    Mokon
    Skirmisher
    posted 01-31-06 03:34 PM EDT (US)     34 / 53       
    micro works wonders

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  • Ceres629
    Skirmisher
    posted 01-31-06 03:35 PM EDT (US)     35 / 53       
    Enemy micro also works wonders.

    Especially when he doesn't even have to micro his curs, and can micro elsewhere.

    Mokon
    Skirmisher
    posted 01-31-06 03:45 PM EDT (US)     36 / 53       
    ceres, really watch the rec, it will give you some good ideas how to counter em. Both of us microed a ton, and cuis were able to be countered just fine. As ports I would recommend you use hussars and musk vs skirms and cuis early on. In age4 use HC and (goons or musk or halbs) vs the combo. Both slaughter them.

    We didnt test with organ guns, but my guess is they mixed with a meatshield will probably do better then the falcs, since they can slaughter the skirms faster. That reminds me is the organ gun range the same as falcs?

    If he solely masses cuis use halbs or musk if u dont wanna have to micro.


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  • Ceres629
    Skirmisher
    posted 01-31-06 03:56 PM EDT (US)     37 / 53       
    ok will watch it...

    you managed to semi-convince me french aren't OP (which is no ordinary feat!), so I'll give you the benefit of the doubt and have a look

    edit
    doh, agesanc is down...again.

    [This message has been edited by Ceres629 (edited 01-31-2006 @ 03:58 PM).]

    Mokon
    Skirmisher
    posted 01-31-06 04:18 PM EDT (US)     38 / 53       
    hehe, u have MSNIM? I can send it to u if u want me to... My msnim is TSC_Mokon@ESO.com

    See the thing is France is very verstile and also very easy to use if u just need to get down the basicly. Therefore early on they seemed more powerful then they are. There are a few things that do of course need adjusting, but france doenst have the problem that comes from abus....


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  • justiw
    Skirmisher
    posted 01-31-06 04:36 PM EDT (US)     39 / 53       
    I think something to consider in the analysis of counters is exactly how effective it is to counter. Here is what I have in mind:

    E = Efficiency Factor always between -1 and +1
    O = Offensive unit cost
    D = Deffensive unit cost
    O and D must be roughly the same value.
    S = Surviving unit cost (after the battle, one side must be completely killed)
    S is positive if offensive units survive and negative if defensive units survive.

    E = (O - D - S)*2/(O + D)

    What this tells you is the percentage of effectiveness for defending a cuirassier attack (or any attack really).

    If you have a hugely positive E at the end (near +1) you have a very cost effective counter.

    If you have a hugely negative E at the end (near -1) you do not have a cost effective counter. In fact the offencive units countered the defensive units.

    If the E is very near zero, then both the offence and defence suffered the same losses.

    My theory is that when the cuirassier is the offencive unit, there are only a few counter units that have a positive E. I also think that the ratio will be much smaller than other counter scenarios, such as Hussars vs Halberdiers+Dragoons.

    In my experience, the only effective counters to cuirassier are the heavy infantry units, possibly with a few goons behind them. My bet is that the cost efficiency of Hussars vs Halbs+Goons is about 0.8-0.9 or 80-90% cost effective. While the cost efficiency of Cuirs vs Halbs+Goons will be 0.3-0.5 or 20-50% cost effective. But if the scenario is Cuirs+Skirms+Cannon vs Any counter unit combo the efficiency probably goes to zero.

    I would check this in the scenario editor, but I can't seem to make the upgrade system work.


    Counter the attack, then Counter Attack!!!

    [This message has been edited by justiw (edited 01-31-2006 @ 04:43 PM).]

    ZAKtheGeek
    Skirmisher
    posted 01-31-06 04:42 PM EDT (US)     40 / 53       
    To get back to the topic at hand: whether this is a problem or not can easily be settled by considering whther or not ALL fortrees age units use their fortress age stats as base stats for upgrades (this excludes skirms, ruyters, dragoons... anything else?) If they all work that way, then cuirassiers are in line with all other units and there's no problem. If they don't all work that way, then the units using colonial base stats are weaker for no real apparent reason, and there is an issue.

    I am herpes.

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    ultimitsu
    Skirmisher
    posted 01-31-06 04:51 PM EDT (US)     41 / 53       
    there are two issues in this.


    A, this upgrade system is no consistant, dragoon, skirm, etc
    B, this upgrade system makes it very hard to counter whats already a very powerful unit in late game, due to its counters are disadvantaged in this system.

    Grommash
    Skirmisher
    posted 01-31-06 05:45 PM EDT (US)     42 / 53       
    Age3 Veteran Cuirassier have 30 attack.Age5 Imperial Gendarme Cuirassiers have 57 attack.This means their attack is increased by 90%(40% guard upgrade+50% imperial upgrade).

    Now,let's look at skirmishers and dragoons.
    Age2 skirmishers have 15 attack.Age5 skirmishers have 30 attack.An addition of 100% attack(110% for french/germans skirm)

    Age2 Dragoons have 23 attack(or 22,correct me if I'm wrong)
    Age5 Dragoons have 46 attack.
    Again,100% attack is added.(110% for jinete)

    What I'm trying to say is that because cuirassiers don't have an Veteran Upgrade(their upgrade is directly calculated
    on their veteran form),their attack is lower than it could be.

    Oh,and sorry about bad english.


    Ceres629
    Skirmisher
    posted 01-31-06 06:08 PM EDT (US)     43 / 53       

    Quote:

    What I'm trying to say is that because cuirassiers don't have an Veteran Upgrade(their upgrade is directly calculated
    on their veteran form),their attack is lower than it could be.

    lol?

    I think you got that the wrong way around.... their attack is higher than it would be.

    Mark_Aurel
    Skirmisher
    posted 01-31-06 06:23 PM EDT (US)     44 / 53       
    Grommash, you can't compare like that. You should rather compare Age 3 units to Age 5 units. Colonial units are a tier below veteran units, and the fact that cuirassiers start out with the word 'veteran' in front of their name indicates that they're supposed to be balanced with other veteran units.

    I.e. Age 3 cuirassiers 30 attack, Age 5 cuirassiers 57 attack -- as you say, a 90% increase.

    Now, Age 3 musketeers 27.6 attack, Age 5 royal guard musketeers 48.3 attack -- an increase of 75%.

    The same is also true of other units that have subveteran base stats.

    Quote:

    If they all work that way, then cuirassiers are in line with all other units and there's no problem. If they don't all work that way, then the units using colonial base stats are weaker for no real apparent reason, and there is an issue.

    The latter would appear to be the case. It may be a design decision on ES's part, but then it would seem to be a poor design decision. Most of the Fortress Age units do work in the same manner as cuirassiers; the problem is that not all civs receive good Fortress Age units, and not all Fortress Age units are equally viable for general purposes to begin with. What it does seem to do is shaft some of the colonial units by comparison.

    There's really no consistent pattern to it except for that it applies to units which generally appear later in the game, and mostly to unique units. A couple of ranged units (war wagon, ruyter) fall into the category -- so there goes the argument that it's supposed to be a bonus for melee units in a game of mostly ranged units. If anything, it works the other way in those cases, as it makes it increasingly harder for hussars to survive long enough to do their jobs against those civs.

    With some units, it's really less of a dangerous situation -- halberdiers and oprichniks are fairly specialized and don't enjoy any of the other advantages that units like the cuirassier does. On the other hand, the lancer is another power unit that also falls into this category of units.

    The only thing that seems like it might be rational is that ES by design actually wants players to switch to using these Fortress Age units later in the game, phasing out the Colonial units. That still doesn't make much sense, though -- as the Fortress power units are distributed quite differently by civ.


    <Witty signature goes here.>
    Cy Marlayne
    Skirmisher
    posted 01-31-06 07:03 PM EDT (US)     45 / 53       
    Ceres, I have a Port HC now and I tried massing FU Jinetes against massed FU Cuirassiers and I did fine. I even found adding a clump of Musketeers to be even better. I would expect you to have less problems since you're considered the expert here, but something isn't making sense to me.

    Why do Cuirassiers mow down your armies but yield to mine?


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    [This message has been edited by Cy Marlayne (edited 01-31-2006 @ 07:09 PM).]

    ZAKtheGeek
    Skirmisher
    posted 01-31-06 08:11 PM EDT (US)     46 / 53       
    Like I said, skirmishers, ruyters and dragoons don't count because you can get them in colonial. I do feel it's a bit unfair that they would end up weaker than their starting-vet versions, but it certainly wouldn't be due to a coding error.

    I am herpes.

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    Yamato Take
    Prince of Tennis
    posted 01-31-06 08:32 PM EDT (US)     47 / 53       
    I have found the only way to kill Cuirassiers considering War Wagons, Halbrediers, Musketeers, Cavalry Archers, Dragoons, Ruyters, and the other units don't work.

    Dopplesoldners.

    I was playing aginst this Frenchy and he had mabey 20 Cuirassiers, and I had about 10 Dopplesoldners. There's no way they could run away, so I set them in defensive position as the OP cavalry came. I look away from the battle, knowing my German friends will be killed, and start to train War Wagons. But then my 20 WWs get killed by like 7 Cuirassiers, so then I look at these guys by a silver mine, thinking I might need to see if I have too many on coin and not enough on wood. I had 6 Dopplesoldners left. Repeating this experiment I found out Dopplesoldners pwn Cuirassiers.

    So whenever I play a DM game now, when I see a shitload of French cavalry over the horizon, they meet my shitload os German infantry.


    Cosmopolitan? Check.

    [This message has been edited by Yamato Take (edited 01-31-2006 @ 08:33 PM).]

    Cy Marlayne
    Skirmisher
    posted 01-31-06 09:13 PM EDT (US)     48 / 53       

    Quote:

    I have found the only way to kill Cuirassiers considering War Wagons, Halbrediers, Musketeers, Cavalry Archers, Dragoons, Ruyters, and the other units don't work.

    They all work for me.


    Am I God or something? Why are you people having such a hard time?


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    ultimitsu
    Skirmisher
    posted 01-31-06 11:03 PM EDT (US)     49 / 53       
    WW must be guarded by dopps, or else once they melee it is the end of it.
    NemesisHunter
    Skirmisher
    posted 01-31-06 11:13 PM EDT (US)     50 / 53       
    Cy Marlayne...

    The reason ceres's opponent's army mowed him down is hes playing at a high level, so his opponents are really good at MICRO and also (I would assume) don't simply mass straight cuirs.

    Cy Marlayne
    Skirmisher
    posted 01-31-06 11:34 PM EDT (US)     51 / 53       

    Quote:

    The reason ceres's opponent's army mowed him down is hes playing at a high level, so his opponents are really good at MICRO and also (I would assume) don't simply mass straight cuirs.

    I've heard of Ceres speak of countering Cuirassiers, and Cuirassiers + Skirmishers + Heavy Cannon. When Ceres speaks of either one, he says OP. When Ceres speaks of Cuirassiers + Skirmishers + Heavy Cannon, he says unbeatable.

    If you can't beat all-Cuirassiers armies, then yeah, a Cuirassier + Skirmisher + Heavy Cannon army will probably be even harder.

    Step one is defeating all-Cuirassier armies. If a French player believes that his Cuirassier armies do not need to be microed, then you will actually kill more of them. Why? Because the power of Cuirassier armies come from their working together in packs. If you have 20 Cuirassiers spread out over an army of 30 Dragoons, then you're going to lose more men than if you packed them in really close to the Dragoons.

    However, nobody is dumb enough to leave their Dragoons to where Cuirassiers can just run right into the middle of them, so microing Cuirassiers won't be that effective anyway. In that case, a better counter attack would be to break your Cuirassier army in half and attempt to flank the Dragoons.

    This is why I break up my Dragoon armies into 2 or 3 groups in the middle of a battle. It makes the French player divide his army. Dividing a force of Cuirassiers isn't good because that's where they get their strength!

    One of my Dragoon divisions plays bait with a linear hit and run route while the other divisions flank the Cuirassiers and pick them off. If the Cuirassiers spread or attempt to chase two Dragoon divisions at once, then I usually focus on the weakest limb of the battle and try to kill off as many of the injured Cuirassiers as possible. Using this tactic, I usually abandon one of my Dragoon divisions and focus on bringing more Dragoons to the field.

    The battles don't take long at all, but in case a French player wants to rush past my Dragoons into my economy to raid, he'll be stopped by a double layer wall. I ALWAYS double layer my walls versus French.

    If Ceres does everything that I do and still loses, then his opponent must be far more skilled than him, that's the only thing I can think of, because obviously a player with more skill will win if that's what the numbers come down to.


    Fighting against Cuirassiers + Skirmisher + Heavy Cannons isn't too hard either, depending on what civ you are. If you can mass Hussars, you can stop his army VERY cost effectively. For other civs, I would probably use ranged cavalry mixed with melee cavalry.


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    [This message has been edited by Cy Marlayne (edited 01-31-2006 @ 11:41 PM).]

    Ceres629
    Skirmisher
    posted 02-01-06 09:32 AM EDT (US)     52 / 53       

    Quote:

    If Ceres does everything that I do and still loses, then his opponent must be far more skilled than him, that's the only thing I can think of, because obviously a player with more skill will win if that's what the numbers come down to.

    Saying it takes skill to use curs is like saying it takes skill to walk upright. (age >= 2 years old)

    I guess next time i will draft out a ten page dragoon battle plan while my enemy simply right clicks and goes back to build more curs.

    My solution for curs now is to just make sure I put ALL my efforts into upgrading my hussars more than their curs. So when the stupid curs show up, my hussars can pwn them.

    I can only do this in 1v1 though. Team games the french can boom and spam FU curs in which case they kill all.

    I admire the spirit of french players on their quest to prove french or french cav isn't OP. But its easy for french players to claim that their civs best unit isn't OP. I dunno what nerf ES has planned for french, but I still look forward to it, whether its the curs or the french eco that gets hit.

    [This message has been edited by Ceres629 (edited 02-01-2006 @ 09:37 AM).]

    ultimitsu
    Skirmisher
    posted 02-05-06 01:23 PM EDT (US)     53 / 53       

    Quote:


    Fighting against Cuirassiers + Skirmisher + Heavy Cannons isn't too hard either, depending on what civ you are. If you can mass Hussars, you can stop his army VERY cost effectively. For other civs, I would probably use ranged cavalry mixed with melee cavalry.

    a smart player would only use the Cuirassiers + Skirmisher + Heavy Cannons combo is the main cuirs counter that you are using is heavy infantry. if you are not, then he has no reason to include skirms at all. if you are massing hussars, he can easily increase the number of heavy infantries in his army to match it, your cavs dont stand against heavy infantries as well as his cuirs.

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