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Age of Empires III Heaven » Forums » General Discussions » Analyse Of The Dutch Economy... Explained!
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Topic Subject:Analyse Of The Dutch Economy... Explained!
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RarecuT
Skirmisher
posted 02-17-06 11:39 AM EDT (US)         
Right to start off most of the maths in this thread are based on others findings as it has been a long time since I have strained my mathematical ability. Dutch are unique as they are the only civilisation that bases their economy on gold instead of food. Let us take a closer look at Dutch's economical aspects:

- Villager's cost gold.
- 50 Villager limit.
- Can build banks that generate gold at 2.6/sec (350f/350w).
- 8 Bank limit.
- 50 extra pop cap for military.

At first glance, it seems that replacing villager's with banks, allowing the Dutch to field a larger army is a great bonus. This is until we focus on the drawbacks that make this possible. As later calculations will show there is no free population space, any civilisation can stop expanding their economy at a breaking point which will draw them level or above the Dutch gathering capabilities. To keep things simple all the comparisons are based on normal settlers. Ottoman's slower economy is supposedly balanced with a stronger military and French settler's will prove even more efficient than gold villager's.

BUILDING VILLAGERS

Apart from Ottoman and French, every other civilisation excluding Dutch pays 100f for settlers. Dutch pay the equivalent but in the form of gold. The basic gathering rates of a single villager collecting food and gold are roughly:

FOOD - (Huntable) ~ 0.78/sec
GOLD - (Gold Mine) ~ 0.60/sec

So in terms of expanding each economy, it takes this long for a villager to gather enough resources for another villager:

0.78 x 129 Seconds = 100.62 Food
0.60 x 167 Seconds = 100.2 Gold

This roughly leaves 40 seconds or so difference which can depend on many factors such as walking time, distance away from TC, distance to the next source etc. However from this we can see that food is already much more efficient for the basis of an economy. Faster queuing of villager's and the larger abundance of food on the map plays a great part in seperating both economies.

Food also can be herded closer to the TC while gold mines are not always next to the town center. Assuming there are at least 8 huntables in a herd that works out as:

8 x 400 = 3200 Food; whereas gold mines are only 2000 gold. So we can take it for granted that expanding a food economy will be much quicker than the gold one. If games were an all out boom, that is another 12 villager's more and much faster. Although currently the game is all about Age3 FF and getting access to more powerful units, though still it shows the food civ will continue to expand much quicker.

BANKS

It is obvious from the overlook that the Dutch gold economy is lacking due to gather rate and the sparseness of gold mines nearby increasing villager travel time. I believe this is where banks come in to reduce the gap between the two economies.

The food economy already has the advantage with:

- Faster queuing.
- Quicker gather rates.
- More food on the map that can be manipulated (moved).

Banks make up for:

- The lack of nearby mines, allowing for a constant supply of gold.
- Closes the gap on the number of villager's produced in the food economy, as banks count as 4 villager's built at once.
- Increases the Dutch's gold gathering capabilities.

This makes perfect sense now as banks were intended to help the Dutch catch up due to the lower gathering rate of gold. At the same time, giving the civilisation some uniqueness and distinct advantages including:

- Constant unraidable gold supply (artillery doesn't raid).
- Only civ with a gold based economy.
- Field larger armies late game with a bigger military pop available.

BANK STATISTICS

Now lets take a look at some of the stats of banks to help us understand how well banks allow Dutch to close the gap on food fueled economies. The gather rate of banks is 2.6g/sec which roughly translated is 4 villager's gathering gold from a mine with the first gold upgrade.

Here are the settings for both scenarios:

~ Bank

2.6 x 60 Seconds = 156 Gold/min

~ 4 Villager's (1st Upgrade)

0.66 x 60 Seconds = 158.4 Gold/min

There isn't much difference between the two. Let us just say the extra 2 Gold/min is traded for a safe, constant supply which is certainly an effective tradeoff. Now for the setup costs (using the total resources as the comparison):

~ Bank

350f/350w = 700 resources.

Build Time = < 25 Seconds

~ 4 Villager's

400f + 150 Upgrade = 550 Resources

Build Time = 25 Seconds/Villager

Ok, so with 150 resources setup difference let us look at some calculations to show how long each method takes to become profitable, taking into account the benefits a bank brings to counter the bigger cost and higher gathering time for the wood. As I want to keep the comparison simple we will look at the total of gathered resources to match the cost of setup:

~ Bank

156/min x 4.5 Minutes = 702 Gold

~ 4 Villager's

158.4/min x 3.5 Minutes = 554.4 Gold
158.4/min x 4.5 Minutes = 712 Gold

So if you can take better care of your settler's, the cheaper setup will bring in more benefits than building a bank. Taking the 150 resources extra to get the bank and the 150 or so extra gathered makes 300 resources extra for the food economy player to spend to their advantage. FF strategies further increase this advantage as raiding is rare to non existent/effective early on and the game is about shipping units and clashing in a battle.

This makes 8 banks x 300 = 2400 resources extra for them to spend if the Dutch player goes on to build the full limit of banks. So with the current trend of gameplay Dutch are falling behind majorly. This is where shipments again play an even more important part as the food economy speeds past the gold economy.

To get access to 99 villager's there is only an original cost and housing cost. You get 4 banks to build to begin with then have to use 3 shipments to access the other 4 and also sacrifice military speed for a +2 bank limit from the church. Again to the age of FF, you won't be building more then 1-2 banks in Colonial before advancing to even stand a chance of competing with an eqully skilled player, who is putting to good use the extra resources he has with his faster, more efficent food economy and better more poweful shipments.

SHIPMENTS

As the game is currently all about using free shipments to beat your opponent, speed is key combined with a weak economy to get access to these shipments quickly. Dutch economy falls down even more as they have to use 3 of these shipments just to enable them to maximise their economy even before the cost. So you have used 2 banks at most in Colonial. This means the 3 cards you will use are the equivalent of Age3 shipments. You could even say banks 7-8 are Age4 shipments which completely annihilates the Dutch economy. For arguements sake lets say they are Age3 shipments. For simplicity I will calculate the extra advantage as resource shipments.

Age3

3 x 1000 resource cards = 3000!

Age3+4

1 x 1000 resource card = 1000
2 x 1600 resource card = 3200
Setup cost difference = 2400

This added to the deficit from the setup costs difference is 5400 resources. Assuming that 2 of these cards could be played in Age4 this could add up to 6600! It roughly takes 265 villager seconds to pay off a bank and start making profit. Think of how many villager seconds a food economy that has 99 villager's gains over the gold economy with these extra shipments and a cheaper setup cost.

265vs x 8 = 2120 Villager Seconds

This is just for the 8 banks you may use to TRY and equal a food based economy. Try catching up if they ship 1000 wood or something similar. So whether it is 5400 or 6600 resources deficit, most Dutch player's can't afford to waste shipments on the extra banks allowing them to build at least 6 of the banks just to compete with the free units and mercenaries being produced by your opponent.

FF Age3 Warfare

So the most powerful strategy at the moment is definitely the Fast Fortress. Getting to Age3 as soon as possible to make use of powerful units to overwhelm your enemy is difficult to counter in Age2 so the only option is to advance as well and try and counter fire with fire. Now I don't think the situation could get any worse for the Dutch economy as we are already miles behind but wait it does! Not only do Dutch not get access to Jaegars arguably the best mercenary in the game, they don't have very strong Age3 shipments.

While economies are weak from around 13 villager's to 17 or so, mercantilism is used a lot in combination with free units and mercenaries. While these shipments battle it out, with most villager's collecting gold for mercs or the mercantilism tech itself you have to balance your economy for building houses continuing to build units to supplement your army. Going back to the original calculations we already know food gathers much more quickly than gold.

Dutch's main units combined with mercenaries of their own = extremely gold intensive. Banks eventually kicking in help for the lack of gold mines available nearby, but they are so behind due to the wasting of shipments and setup costs for their economy it is impossible to compete with an equally skilled player. (Note: This is comparing Dutch with the strongest civlisations in the game, I'm sure the other weaker civlisations are in the same boat but not extensively as this in economy, but in other areas).

So you have so many villager's gathering gold and so many on wood but for instance let me suggest both economies have 5 villager's on their expanding resource which is either food or gold, which would normally work out as more once you have upgraded your gathering rates:

0.78 x 129 Seconds = 100.62 Food x 5 Villager's = 503.1 Food
0.60 x 167 Seconds = 100.2 Gold x 5 Villager's = 501 Gold

Back comes that 40 seconds difference, now with weak economies the food economy is again shown to be able to expand a lot quicker. This is even more so possible now the Dutch army is very gold intensive, especially with falconet's. This leaves the Dutch player to make another sacrifice to build villager's to keep up with the food player's better economy or to forget that and continue to build military units to compete. Even at a slower rate the food player will be able to expand as unit shipments provide cover for cannons which don't cost food allowing them some opportunity to continue expanding their economy.

With their extra 3 shipments the food player doesn't need to enable them to maximise their economy, they could have shipped in wood or gold or even more units. Giving them a more powerful army, more cannons and more map control. Allowing you less natural gold as Dutch and making you rely more on a deficit in banks that is already keeping you behind economically. This leads to your economy being harassed earlier giving them a further advantage, especially if they have Jaegars and an anti-cav unit.

CONCLUSION

Without an economy already suffering being able to field more units would be a great advantage, though somewhere along the line the Dutch player has to compromise. The food economy player can field just as large an army by finding the breaking point between these Dutch compromises = uniqueness in no advantage whatsoever! From the beginning to the end of the game Dutch are always behind. Meaning any equal skilled battle is enormously in your opponent's favour.

People who don't play Dutch and say dutch have a great economy are insane. Even when FF isn't a prominent strategy if it gets fixed in 1.05 and extra starting resources give Dutch a quicker start. In some way or another the basis of a gold economy will still suffer major blows.

-Kyle

AuthorReplies:
RarecuT
Skirmisher
posted 02-18-06 02:14 PM EDT (US)     26 / 72       
Well with all respect as you have done a lot for a lot of communities TGE. You have played 30 or so games with Dutch, even against the best players every game that is not enough to comment on how powerful they really are.

I average from 1950-2k rate and each game is more difficult to play as people refine their strategies with the better civs. This isn't some wild rant this post is based on 300+ games with Dutch against some of the top player's.

Dutch have a sub-par economy, whether you have enough skill to get over this boundary is another factor. There are only a handful of guys who can hold their own and stay above 2k. No top players play Dutch... where are they if they are so good?

TheGoodEvil
Skirmisher
posted 02-18-06 02:42 PM EDT (US)     27 / 72       
Well I made a huge reply but it was lost when trying to post and an error took over.

Anyway I have 2 accounts, between those 2 account I have played over 130 games as Dutch. When I played as Dutch I used them exclusively between both accounts when Talon's ladder was running hit 1900+ with both accounts. I played against 2k players, 1950+, and 1800-1900 rated players mostly. so in about 20 games under talan's ladder I hit 1900 rated with dutch, I didn't and still don't play much or I would have had more. I haven't really played much Dutch since the FF thing took over, it's kinda pointless.

I would like to see boom tests with each civ, I'd like to see how many resources they can gather in 20 minutes. Then I will take your math to heart if the numbers show dutch is far inferior to other civs.

TGE


TGE's RTS Blog, news, thoughts, and advice on RTS gaming

Able Company (my job)

"I've kicked more ass on accident than most people have on purpose"

[This message has been edited by TheGoodEvil (edited 02-18-2006 @ 02:44 PM).]

RarecuT
Skirmisher
posted 02-18-06 02:52 PM EDT (US)     28 / 72       
Gameplay has developed so much since then during the FF stage. Some of the top Dutch player's have agreed with me, who have played the same amount of games or more.

I know their economy is weak compared to food based ones as I have witnessed it in 300+ competitive games. The calculations easily make for strong evidence as they are all gather rates multiplied by a length of time and number of villager seconds.

We all know food with good herding + walk time will still piss over gold gathering, it doesn't play much of a factor in the tests. Those who have played Dutch enough will understand me, others will just not accept it, there are fewer numbers of top players playing Dutch for these reasons alone, the rest are ignorant like me.

slackman42
Skirmisher
posted 02-18-06 03:47 PM EDT (US)     29 / 72       

Quote:


I would like to see boom tests with each civ, I'd like to see how many resources they can gather in 20 minutes. Then I will take your math to heart if the numbers show dutch is far inferior to other civs.

this doesnt matter when the game is decided in the first 8, regardless of how long it takes to actually finish the game.

how do u put up 350f/350w banks AND a rax, AND a stable AND try to build troops to raid in early age2 AND continue settler production when all anyone else has to do is send 700g? after that happens, their 7 free skirms outclass yours (due to being veteran lvl) and they are free to slaughter you w/ their lancers/ulhans/cuirs because u cant get your anti-cav units yet?

schildpad
Skirmisher
posted 02-18-06 04:05 PM EDT (US)     30 / 72       
not really proof, but when i play with dutch and i win, i look to postgame:

1. a few k more gold collected
2. enemies have MUCH more wood and food collected


"such a kind fellow!" ~ ķįŋğ_Ćħŗĩ_ĬĬ

Furby killer should be crowned leader of AOE forum ~ [SW_GD]Teutonic

Morningthaw
Skirmisher
posted 02-18-06 11:14 PM EDT (US)     31 / 72       
rarecut, i'm seriously wondering why the hell you dont have the extra bank cards in any of your decks?
RarecuT
Skirmisher
posted 02-18-06 11:25 PM EDT (US)     32 / 72       
They are a waste. Against good players you need other cards to compete and stay in the game. By the time you would have used them you are either losing or your opponent wasn't of equal skill. Assuming you are playing the stronger civilisations of course.
Morningthaw
Skirmisher
posted 02-18-06 11:37 PM EDT (US)     33 / 72       
"ok"

check daut's decks. and grunt's. and ourk's. and _mamo_'s and pikaboy's - you'll find not one of them agrees with you...

i cant totally see your point, and it sux having to lose 3 card slots just to get equal econ, but for dutch the pay-off is worth it

[This message has been edited by Morningthaw (edited 02-18-2006 @ 11:41 PM).]

Strong Man
Skirmisher
posted 02-19-06 01:06 AM EDT (US)     34 / 72       
I don't really like Banks and coin-costing settlers of this civ!! Building banks before mines used up / or food and wood in surplus / or settler pop limit hit is like building plantations early for other civs while mines are still available.

Sure, if you got attacked at mines you can't build settlers... then other civs shouldn't hunt and must build early mills?


In case I don't see ya, good afternoon, good evening and good night!
Ender_Ward
Skirmisher
posted 02-19-06 01:36 AM EDT (US)     35 / 72       
Erm ... I'm sorry, but:

After sending ATP in age 1.
After sending your 700 gold, 700 wood and Advanced Church in age 2.
After sending your 10 Ruyters, Black Riders, 1000 wood and 1000 gold in Age 3. Let's say you even get Stadholder. Let's say you even get to Industrial, and want those last 2 Banks, you've sent those two Factories, you've even sent the Baloon card.

Now, what else are you going to send, instead of a Bank card? What else, in your deck, is going to be worth more then two +1 Bank cards? If you haven't won by this point, then you're in a tug of war. You're going to be pumping out Ruyters and Heavy Cannons. What the hell else are going to spend shipments on? Oh, right, you can even include Tulip Speculation. Well eventually, you will run out of truly useful shipments (7 Ruyters is not useful, for example). That's when you get those last two Banks. You get them at the same time a normal civ would be getting it's last 20 villagers.

Yes, it does suck having to "waste" a card to unlock a Bank. But it's not crippling, as you aren't going to be using these cards before more useful ones anyway. It does suck, however, because effectively Dutch only have 17 cards they can choose, if they want to unlock their full economy. Three cards are automatically taken up by Advanced church, and two +1 Bank limit ones. But again, Dutch military shipments kinda suck anyway (aside from 10 Ruyters and Black Riders).



"One wants to be loved, failing that admired, failing that feared, failing that hated and despised. One wants to instill in other people some form of emotion. The soul shudders before emptiness and wants contact, no matter the cost."
schildpad
Skirmisher
posted 02-19-06 02:55 AM EDT (US)     36 / 72       
swiss pikes can be handy
advanced arsenal
9 skirms
sometimes fort
3 settler in age1
infantry combat, team infantry and (not team) cavalry
advanced banks (cheaper + more HP)

i have enough cards to send, also i send faster mining card quite often.

for fully banks you need
1 extra bank
2 extra bank
3 unique church
4 advancedbanks
5 tulip speculation (an age4 card for 15% gather bonus :S)


"such a kind fellow!" ~ ķįŋğ_Ćħŗĩ_ĬĬ

Furby killer should be crowned leader of AOE forum ~ [SW_GD]Teutonic

[This message has been edited by schildpad (edited 02-19-2006 @ 02:57 AM).]

TSC_Revenger
Skirmisher
posted 02-19-06 03:47 AM EDT (US)     37 / 72       
Morningthaw:
"check daut's decks. and grunt's. and ourk's. and _mamo_'s and pikaboy's - you'll find not one of them agrees with you...

i cant totally see your point, and it sux having to lose 3 card slots just to get equal econ, but for dutch the pay-off is worth it"

lol, first of all, all those ppl know dutch sucks and cant be competetive vs especially German...they have those cards in deck since there are no others.

And second, the pay-off isnt worth it since u'r dead by then...

and 2k+ dutch players would be top10 using german! lol :/


Earl Samsca
Skirmisher
posted 02-19-06 05:47 AM EDT (US)     38 / 72       
They have a point.. How often do you even get to send 10 shipments in a 1v1 game? Effectively you might as well stack the last 8-10 as econ improvements, because a handful of units is going to mean squat for your experiance by industrial. I find most games end at about the 7th to 9th card if its a heavy FF attack which is decisive.

In the case of pure booming, Dutch beat all but British. Portugal are too slow off the mark and villager cards cannot hope to match the number of villagers banks equal. Banks also generate more XP straight off the bat. The rest of the civs have no production capabilities bar their TC's. TP spamming can be emulated by the Dutch as can boat boom. With 500+700 wood, you can be pushing for 3 (and a few seconds later 4) banks very early in colonial which will leave a single 5 villager card far behind. Dutch benefit from a long colonial far more than their food based rivals.

schildpad
Skirmisher
posted 02-19-06 07:12 AM EDT (US)     39 / 72       
long colonial doesnt excist anymore. And 4 banks also cost 1400 food, enough for fortress, then you can also send 1 shipment of gold and advance

"such a kind fellow!" ~ ķįŋğ_Ćħŗĩ_ĬĬ

Furby killer should be crowned leader of AOE forum ~ [SW_GD]Teutonic

Earl Samsca
Skirmisher
posted 02-19-06 10:13 AM EDT (US)     40 / 72       
Obviously... it seems they didn't consider the oversite.
But in a no-rush pure boom situation, dutch are superior to all but Britain.
schildpad
Skirmisher
posted 02-19-06 10:18 AM EDT (US)     41 / 72       
so what? otto are superior if you cant advance further then colonial, germans when you can only make mercs and brittish when you cant make gunpowder units.

"such a kind fellow!" ~ ķįŋğ_Ćħŗĩ_ĬĬ

Furby killer should be crowned leader of AOE forum ~ [SW_GD]Teutonic

Earl Samsca
Skirmisher
posted 02-19-06 10:20 AM EDT (US)     42 / 72       
The idea was that a poster was saying that the Dutch economy is not efficient or effective even in optimal conditions.

This is incorrect.

Morningthaw
Skirmisher
posted 02-19-06 10:23 AM EDT (US)     43 / 72       
all those players know dutch cant compete vs. the top civs? really? when he was active daut was in the top 10 with only dutch. i've seen pikaboy take dutch and win/nearly win vs. top players using spainish, french and german. and because of the huge economic benifits of speding an extra 1-2 mins in colonial for dutch, and their ability to make skirms in age2 they are one of the few civs that can actually achieve it.

[This message has been edited by Morningthaw (edited 02-19-2006 @ 10:25 AM).]

schildpad
Skirmisher
posted 02-19-06 10:37 AM EDT (US)     44 / 72       
wow someone in top 10 with dutch. 1!!!! in top 10 and dutch are fine?

How much have dutch as main civ in top 50? 1? or2?


it is stupid to believe dutch can compete against FF or a good otto rush. Dutch have early skirms, so have french, but dutch is much slower early game then other civs.


banks are only really usefull when other player has to make plantations
french also have early skirms, and early skirms are useless because everyone FF's
ruyther are nice
dutch colonial shipments arent good. I play with dutch and port, and 8xbows+6musks>>>>>8 pikes + 3 hussars


"such a kind fellow!" ~ ķįŋğ_Ćħŗĩ_ĬĬ

Furby killer should be crowned leader of AOE forum ~ [SW_GD]Teutonic

[This message has been edited by schildpad (edited 02-19-2006 @ 10:42 AM).]

ddemers
Skirmisher
posted 02-19-06 10:40 AM EDT (US)     45 / 72       
Great detailed post, however theory doesnt always make a difference in a game. Like British and Ports, the Dutch civ needs a little 'alone time' to be effective.

You leave me alone, with the exception of raids, for 10-12 minutes and I will have walls, 6-8 banks and 2-4 towers in my base, along with 15 or so skirms... not to mention ~30 settlers. Good luck slowing me down after this More often then not I will use my huge surplus in gold to purchase food I need to age Spend another 800 wood + upgrades on mills and you have an unraidable economy, and its hard to put a price tag on that.

schildpad
Skirmisher
posted 02-19-06 10:45 AM EDT (US)     46 / 72       
no player will leave you alone that long, same as my other post:
brittish own when you may not use gunpowder units
otto own when you cant go further then colonial

2-4 towers wont help you against mortars
purchasing food for gold is bad idea, gold has allready lower gather rate, and minus market costs you will get food really slow compared to hunting


"such a kind fellow!" ~ ķįŋğ_Ćħŗĩ_ĬĬ

Furby killer should be crowned leader of AOE forum ~ [SW_GD]Teutonic

ddemers
Skirmisher
posted 02-19-06 11:26 AM EDT (US)     47 / 72       

Quote:

no player will leave you alone that long, same as my other post:
brittish own when you may not use gunpowder units
otto own when you cant go further then colonial


Well I specified that getting raided doesnt count. Even if a single shipment of mercs come you can still fight it off with the towers/skirms. Because I don't need to leave my walls, my oponent is forced to break down my walls and go through a choke point, which is where skirms excel.


Quote:

2-4 towers wont help you against mortars


Lol, if you get to age IV, your dutch oponent will have a far better economy + a 100-150 pop army waiting for you.


Quote:

purchasing food for gold is bad idea, gold has allready lower gather rate, and minus market costs you will get food really slow compared to hunting


This is true for any civ but dutch.

By your replies I don't think you have played dutch too often.


ultimitsu
Skirmisher
posted 02-19-06 12:44 PM EDT (US)     48 / 72       

Quote:

After sending ATP in age 1.
After sending your 700 gold, 700 wood and Advanced Church in age 2.
After sending your 10 Ruyters, Black Riders, 1000 wood and 1000 gold in Age 3. Let's say you even get Stadholder. Let's say you even get to Industrial, and want those last 2 Banks, you've sent those two Factories, you've even sent the Baloon card.

Now, what else are you going to send, instead of a Bank card?

without getting too involved in the "does dutch eco suck" argument... i thought i'd reply to this one...


generally speaking, you pick your deck well before you know what your enemy is going to do, and by the time you know what he is going to do, you have to use whatever deck you got to deal with him...

so one must have a deck that has a goal purpose, but also has card that can deal with most situations..

your deck has no vil cards... what if your opp takes over half the TPs? or killed your explorer?

i notice you have units card in age2, what if you got raided by xbows? or maybe uhlans?

you have to be able to adapt to changes,


my port deck has lots of age2 cards, i have native alley and 8 xbow and 6 muskts, i dont use any of them a lot fo the time and go straight into fortress, but there are times i need them, and i dont know which one i will be needing in advance. i could get rid of them and get some good eco upgrade cards, such as 2 x +20% plantation work rate (which roughly equals to a dutch bank each if i had 20~30 vils on plantations) but they are no good if i die in age2..

i can totally see it when someone says they need as many cards as they can have just to survive as a weaker civ.

you also dont have fort, AA, etc, but thats another matter.

schildpad
Skirmisher
posted 02-19-06 01:57 PM EDT (US)     49 / 72       
ddemer, too bad for you. i played 146 games with dutch and 30 with port, and my rating is 1880, so i have played enough game and i am not noob.

bank = about 4 settler on mine. So thats about 3 settler on food, and -25% market penalty (thats in beginning, it will become more and more), your banks equals a bit more then 2 settlers on food. So really bad idea.

Dutch have slowest start, they suck at FF, and only late game banks become handy. Too bad you often wont survive that long


You need 3 shipments for max ammount banks, you can also send 3 times 20% upgrades. And another age4 card for 15% only banks upgrade, then i would choose an age1 20% mining upgrade


"such a kind fellow!" ~ ķįŋğ_Ćħŗĩ_ĬĬ

Furby killer should be crowned leader of AOE forum ~ [SW_GD]Teutonic

[This message has been edited by schildpad (edited 02-19-2006 @ 02:00 PM).]

Ender_Ward
Skirmisher
posted 02-19-06 02:01 PM EDT (US)     50 / 72       

Quote:


generally speaking, you pick your deck well before you know what your enemy is going to do, and by the time you know what he is going to do, you have to use whatever deck you got to deal with him...

Uh, yeah, this is obvious, beginner stuff. Why are you explaining it to me?

Quote:


so one must have a deck that has a goal purpose, but also has card that can deal with most situations..

Obviously ...

Quote:


your deck has no vil cards... what if your opp takes over half the TPs? or killed your explorer?

Say what? Are you clairvoyant? How do you know "my deck" doesn't have villager cards? I didn't even POST a deck. I posted a bunch of CARDS that one could potentially send, before sending the +1 Bank limit cards.

You seem to be confusing a bunch of EXAMPLES of what one can send with a posting of a COMPLETE deck.

Quote:


i notice you have units card in age2, what if you got raided by xbows? or maybe uhlans?

You notice wrong, ofcourse, because you're seing examples of cards that are sent instead of seing a deck. That said, I'm a firm believer that shipping 8 Pikes or 3 Hussars (Dutch colonial shipments) are a waste. If you wanna raid, use your 5-10 Skirmishers. If you wanna fend of a colonial rush, again, use your 5-10 Skirmishers. If you're being hit by small or medium numbers of Cavalry raids, Skirmisher micro eats them for lunch. If you're getting hit by more cavalry than those 10 Skirmishers can handle, you can always make 5 Pikes at the Barracks.
Sending 700 wood or 700 gold is alot more useful. And after that you better damn well be in Fortress.

Quote:


you have to be able to adapt to changes,

No kidding!

Quote:


my port deck has lots of age2 cards

Portuguese =! Dutch

Portuguese don't have Skirmishers and Grenadiers in Colonial.

Quote:


you also dont have fort, AA, etc, but thats another matter.

Uh, says who? Again, I posted a buch of examples of cards. If I posted actual decks, most of them would include the Fort and about half would include Advanced Arsenal (it's not as useful to the Dutch, since the two really important techs, Counter Infantry Rifling and Ranged Carasole are available with the normal arsenal).

Posting a bunch of example cards that will almost certainly be sent before the Bank limit cards is not posting a complete deck.


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