You must be logged in to post messages.
Please login or register

General Discussions
Moderated by Maffia, LordKivlov, JimXIX

Hop to:    
Welcome! You are not logged in. Please Login or Register.99 replies
Age of Empires III Heaven » Forums » General Discussions » Is the Highlander the new heavyweight of Mercs since 1.05?
Bottom
Topic Subject:Is the Highlander the new heavyweight of Mercs since 1.05?
« Previous Page  1 2 3 4  Next Page »
ub3r
Skirmisher
posted 03-17-06 01:41 PM EDT (US)         
Ive always liked the Highlander, even before .05. They have monster ranged attack with even better results when meleeing cavalry. They have good hitpoints also. Im not sure what thier resist is tho.

Anyways i wanted to have a healthy discussion on how the Highlander weighs out amoung the competition. Highlanders kill Black Riders ranged or melee, they are just slower so they can get bumped. Jaeger owns Highlander, but are slower since .05, is the Jaeger still better than Highlander?

I like sending the 2 cannon shipment, then sending Highlanders to defend cannons. I can usually have 11 Highlanders, 2 falconets and 10 pikemen at about 8:20.

Highlander is better than Swiss Pikemen, Stradiot, Mameluke, Ronin, Hackapell, Corsair, and Manchu. The only Mercs that give them any type of problem would be BR and Jaeger, what do you guys think?

EDIT: Highlanders owned in real life. They were some bad ass scotts, highly respected by the Royal Army, and other European countries alike.


"Were surrounded.........this simplifies things." - Chesty Puller USMC 1950

"Let your plans be dark and as impenatrable as night, and when you move, fall like a lightning-bolt." - Sun Tzu

[This message has been edited by ub3r (edited 03-17-2006 @ 01:43 PM).]

AuthorReplies:
SLEAK
Skirmisher
posted 03-17-06 09:19 PM EDT (US)     26 / 99       

Quote:

If you have 7 Hackapells doing 121 hand damage each hit, thats 850 dmg each cycle. So in once cycle about 3 or 4 Jeagers would die. In one cycle of BR shots i bet about 2 or 3 Hackapells would die.

The difference here is this. The Jaegers cant shoot the Highlanders if they are gettting meleed by Hackapells, in the mean time the Highlanders are meleeing Black Riders, which interrupts thier shooting the Hackapell.

Highlander and Hackapell are both dealing melee damage in this situation. The BR and Jaeegers are going for ranged damage, but we all know they cant go ranged if getting meleed, which gives the Hackas and Highlanders the advantage. I also rather have the Hackapell with lower health but higher attack to kill more Jaeger than the higher health lower attack Stradiot.


Yeah I agree with ub3r


subliminal messages
Can you find it...?

Chuck Norris.

LO12DS_Mist
Skirmisher
posted 03-17-06 09:43 PM EDT (US)     27 / 99       

Quote:

Like i said these hypothetical debates lead to nowhere, but ill keep the convo healthy.

Mist forcing your opponent to micro his units to fire instead of melee means he aint bumping and running. Also the Highlander is not forced to close in, they can shoot the Black Riders for decent damage without getting anywhere near them.

How do you suppose Skirms kill Hackapells? Hackapells are faster, and hit WAY harder. Honestly a skirm has like 18 ranged attack with even less in melee, while the Hackapell is killing the Skirm with 2 hits, and they can catch up if skirm bumps and runs. Hackapell is a skirmishers nightmare.

Jaeger would be more believable, but even then the Hackapell can catch them and deal tremoundous damage before dying. BTW Jaegers dont totally own Highlanders like you say, Highlanders deal alot of ranged damage and alot more melee damage.

Anyways the point of this post is Highlanders not Hackapells.

Um, that makes no sense. You still haven't explained how you'd be able to close in if you're in volley mode. You can't make your units fire and move at the same time. If your units move closer while still in volley mode, mine can move back as well. So you're forced to set into melee and charge ahead with the highlanders if your plan should go as set.

Attack and HP is nothing. Its more like damage multipliers and range. Jaegers get a damage multiplier against highlanders. They also get a huge range advantage. You also get one more jaeger than a highlander when you get the merc card, unless you're German. The jaegers, like I said, will be able to kill several highlanders before the highlanders get within range. Also, the black riders can hang back behind the jaegers so its tough for the highlanders to shoot them without getting popped in the face, since BRs can shoot the hacks from behind the jaegers.

BRs own hackapells. Anything ranged that is not artillery would take out hackapells, granted it was about equal res. 12-15 skirms would kill 7 hackapells with a bit of running, IMO. They can still bump+run. -0.5 speed is not a huge handicap. Hackapells are the worst of any mercenary. 7 hackapells for 1200 coin is a waste.

Quote:

got critisized a while back for suggesting highlander mercs for a turtle deck. supposedly jaegers were the only faintly viable inf merc. come on!!! these guys fight like devils. highlanders get 63 ranged attack! 32 hand atk, x2 cav! 400 hitpoints! 40% melee resistance! highlanders, as opposed to jaegers, are so beefy they need minimal backup. jaegers' shoot n scoot is now almost undoable, so shields n counters are needed.

You were criticized because if you had the choice between jaegers and highlanders (which British do), jaegers would be better.

Noone will send melee units against highlanders unless they have nothing else anyway. It would be pointless. I would understand if they sent melee units against jaegers, but not against highlanders. That doesn't make sense.

Highlanders, opposed to jaegers, get sucky range. Jaegers get a pretty good regular attack, and a bonus vs heavy inf...AKA highlanders. Also, with the sheer range and regular ranged attack of the jaegers, jaegers can hold their own against cavalry as well. Its not all about damage and multipliers and hitpoints. Thats too 2 dimensional to leave out range.

Ender_Ward
Skirmisher
posted 03-17-06 09:57 PM EDT (US)     28 / 99       

Quoted from ub3r:


Highlander and Hackapell are both dealing melee damage in this situation.

Absolutely not.

Never, ever, EVER send Highlanders in MELEE againt Black Riders. They'll never get there and just get shot to pieces.

Let me put it this way:

11 Highlanders kill a Black Rider in one shot.

Hell 9 Highlanders will do it. Remember, Black Riders have melee resistance, not ranged.

You'll want to range-kill the Black Riders one by one. If you put Highlanders in melee mode they'll get hit and run to death. The German group of 10 Black Riders will kill a Highlander each shot, if you let them play the hit and run game.


"One wants to be loved, failing that admired, failing that feared, failing that hated and despised. One wants to instill in other people some form of emotion. The soul shudders before emptiness and wants contact, no matter the cost."
LO12DS_Mist
Skirmisher
posted 03-17-06 10:01 PM EDT (US)     29 / 99       

Quote:

Absolutely not.

Never, ever, EVER send Highlanders in MELEE againt Black Riders. They'll never get there and just get shot to pieces.

Let me put it this way:

11 Highlanders kill a Black Rider in one shot.

Hell 9 Highlanders will do it. Remember, Black Riders have melee resistance, not ranged.

You'll want to range-kill the Black Riders one by one. If you put Highlanders in melee mode they'll get hit and run to death. The German group of 10 Black Riders will kill a Highlander each shot, if you let them play the hit and run game.

That'll yield better results against the BRs, but the jaegers will pop at least 3 of the highlanders before they can kill the BRs easily-like I said before, highlanders have sucky range. That means the highlanders can't kill the BRs in a single shot. (the 3 die before they get within firing range)

ZAKtheGeek
Skirmisher
posted 03-17-06 10:03 PM EDT (US)     30 / 99       
Well, wouldn't even more die before you get into melee range, then?

I am herpes.

Pyro Icon
11337
LO12DS_Mist
Skirmisher
posted 03-17-06 10:07 PM EDT (US)     31 / 99       
Yes. Thats the point. Better results, but they still suck. BRs+Jaegers FTW.
Ender_Ward
Skirmisher
posted 03-17-06 10:40 PM EDT (US)     32 / 99       
You need to herd the Jaegers with your Stradiots (I stil don't think it's a good idea to use Hackapells), so when they try to hit and run, they run towards your Highlanders.

It's a matter of which you commit first, to force the enemy to react the way you want to. After all that's what tactics and micro are all about.


"One wants to be loved, failing that admired, failing that feared, failing that hated and despised. One wants to instill in other people some form of emotion. The soul shudders before emptiness and wants contact, no matter the cost."

[This message has been edited by Ender_Ward (edited 03-17-2006 @ 10:59 PM).]

fryBASS
Skirmisher
(id: LO12DS_Frylock)
posted 03-17-06 10:45 PM EDT (US)     33 / 99       
exactly.... i think the only thing that highlanders have over jaegers is seige atk.

Check out my YouTube Page!
ESO - LO12DS_Fry
Ender_Ward
Skirmisher
posted 03-17-06 11:09 PM EDT (US)     34 / 99       
Erm, there are quite a few things Highlanders are better at than Jaegers:

Way better seige attack.
Lack of vulnerability to cavalry.
Better survivability versus artillery (150 more hitpoints).
Much higher damage (even to other heavy infantry, unless the Jaegers have been upgraded with Counter Infantry Rifling).

Movement speed is the same (4.0).

The disadvantages are:
Lower range (12 vs 20).
No benefit from Counter Infantry Rifling.


"One wants to be loved, failing that admired, failing that feared, failing that hated and despised. One wants to instill in other people some form of emotion. The soul shudders before emptiness and wants contact, no matter the cost."
ub3r
Skirmisher
posted 03-17-06 11:22 PM EDT (US)     35 / 99       
Mist - "12-15 skirms would kill 7 hackapells with a bit of running, IMO. They can still bump+run. -0.5 speed is not a huge handicap. Hackapells are the worst of any mercenary. 7 hackapells for 1200 coin is a waste."

Did you just read what you typed? a Jaeger has 4.0 speed compared to the Hackapells 6.8 Thats a huge speed difference. A Jaeger is gonna shoot the Hackapell for 27 each time, so 11 times 27 is 297, so when you stop to shoot your doing 297 damage if focus fired which means ONE dead Hackapell. 7 Hackapells on the other hand will do 847 damage in one cycle thats almost 4 dead Jaegers to one dead Hackapell. You can bump and run with your 4 speed again, kill one more Hackapell and lose 3 more Jaegers, repeat this process untill all of your 1200 coin in recources is now wasted.

Send me a recording of your 11 Jaegers bump and Running 7 Hackapell and living when everythings said and done, and ill shut up.

And thats a Jaeger not even skirms.

EDIT: Wait one more thing i forgot, Hackapells have 30% ranged resist which means the jaeagers will be doing EVEN LESS ranged damage. =D


"Were surrounded.........this simplifies things." - Chesty Puller USMC 1950

"Let your plans be dark and as impenatrable as night, and when you move, fall like a lightning-bolt." - Sun Tzu

[This message has been edited by ub3r (edited 03-17-2006 @ 11:27 PM).]

Pagasaeus
Skirmisher
posted 03-18-06 00:17 AM EDT (US)     36 / 99       

Quote:

Highlanders, opposed to jaegers, get sucky range. Jaegers get a pretty good regular attack, and a bonus vs heavy inf...AKA highlanders. Also, with the sheer range and regular ranged attack of the jaegers, jaegers can hold their own against cavalry as well. Its not all about damage and multipliers and hitpoints. Thats too 2 dimensional to leave out range.

Only in small battles. In large battles in which everything is a mess, highlanders much outperform Jaegers.

Dieneces
Skirmisher
posted 03-18-06 00:31 AM EDT (US)     37 / 99       
Highlanders are the key reason why I'm currently leveling up a British HC.
ultimitsu
Skirmisher
posted 03-18-06 06:32 AM EDT (US)     38 / 99       
hackapell's problem is overkill

with 121 damage it takes 3 hits to kill 1 jaeger, last hit only doing 8 damage. 7 hackapell in 1 cycle will only kill 2 jaegers.

Stradiots on the other hand takes 5 hits to kill jaeger, but last twice as long.

generally, the units with less HP + more damage is harder to use because to maximise their effectiveness you need to micro them with their support units, minimise overkill problem. but low damage + Hi HP units are way more forgiving.

actually i think mamulukes is better than Stradiots in this senario, because it is easier to micro 5 than 7. and mamelukes has better ranged resistance.

The Bob
Skirmisher
posted 03-18-06 09:31 AM EDT (US)     39 / 99       

Quote:

Bob people like you are the cause of rude remarks from people like myself. My spelling errors are due to typing to quick and not fixing it after i post.

"My spelling errors are due to typing too quickly and not fixing the error{s) after I post them."

that said why am i the cause of flames? is telling you youre wrong causing you to want to flame because if it is then i suggest that its you who is to blame

Quote:

If you have 7 Hackapells doing 121 hand damage each hit, thats 850 dmg each cycle. So in once cycle about 3 or 4 Jeagers would die. In one cycle of BR shots i bet about 2 or 3 Hackapells would die.

good thing that there are only 7 hackapells compared to 12 jaegers then isnt it

Quote:

The difference here is this. The Jaegers cant shoot the Highlanders if they are gettting meleed by Hackapells, in the mean time the Highlanders are meleeing Black Riders, which interrupts thier shooting the Hackapell.

actually for a start they can shoot the highlanders and secondly the landers will never even touch the riders

Quote:

Highlander and Hackapell are both dealing melee damage in this situation. The BR and Jaeegers are going for ranged damage, but we all know they cant go ranged if getting meleed, which gives the Hackas and Highlanders the advantage. I also rather have the Hackapell with lower health but higher attack to kill more Jaeger than the higher health lower attack Stradiot.

highlanders wouldnt be dealing melee damage they would be dealing "i am running at the rider but it moves twice as fast as me so i cant hit it" damage

hackapells in a straight up fight die at the speed of light so sure theyll take out maybe half a dozen jaegers but in return you lose em all and he still has half a dozen jaegers left

[This message has been edited by The Bob (edited 03-18-2006 @ 09:32 AM).]

Takk
Skirmisher
(id: Luke_Feanor)
posted 03-18-06 10:09 AM EDT (US)     40 / 99       
I've started using highlanders as my first merc shipment recently too.

Lucas is boss.
aka99
Skirmisher
posted 03-18-06 10:18 AM EDT (US)     41 / 99       
I am going to start using highlanders as my first merc once i get to the right level with my spanish.

After seeing them own me so many times... ive got to try them.

ub3r
Skirmisher
posted 03-18-06 01:26 PM EDT (US)     42 / 99       
Im not gonna flame, but Bob seriously, look at what you said, its really hard to comprehend what your getting at.

"hackapells in a straight up fight die at the speed of light so sure theyll take out maybe half a dozen jaegers but in return you lose em all and he still has half a dozen jaegers left"

Whatever that means, but send me a rec of Jaegers moving faster than a Hackapell, and then killing them. How does a hackapell "straight up fight die at the speed of light so sure theyll take out maybe half a dozen jaegers but in return you lose em all and he still has half a dozen jaegers left" HOW IS LIGHT INFANTRY FASTER THAN CAVARLY?
Jaegers have FOUR speed Hackapell has SIX . EIGHT. Light infantry or Jaegers are NOT faster than Hackapells, and will deal shit damage due to Hackapell range resist.

Anyways Hackapell will beat Jaegers in a "straight up" fight all day. Highlanders CAN touch BR's. They can get em ranged for lots of damage, they are just slower. We already talked about this, the BR is superiour to the Highlander, the Highlander is just better all around becuz of siege and high ranged attack. Also BR's have no ranged resist.


"Were surrounded.........this simplifies things." - Chesty Puller USMC 1950

"Let your plans be dark and as impenatrable as night, and when you move, fall like a lightning-bolt." - Sun Tzu
Earl Samsca
Skirmisher
posted 03-18-06 01:43 PM EDT (US)     43 / 99       
I don't see how Stradiots+Highlanders will defeat BR+Jaegers with any Micro. Maybe in a stand up fight..
THE_champion95
Skirmisher
posted 03-18-06 01:46 PM EDT (US)     44 / 99       
yea highlanders are quality, always my first merc shipment except wen im tc rushing. This is with spanish im talking about.

supporter of Crystal Palace Football club
Leader of The VnX clan!


ESO Name: Rulezzz
LO12DS_Mist
Skirmisher
posted 03-18-06 01:48 PM EDT (US)     45 / 99       

Quote:

Did you just read what you typed? a Jaeger has 4.0 speed compared to the Hackapells 6.8 Thats a huge speed difference. A Jaeger is gonna shoot the Hackapell for 27 each time, so 11 times 27 is 297, so when you stop to shoot your doing 297 damage if focus fired which means ONE dead Hackapell. 7 Hackapells on the other hand will do 847 damage in one cycle thats almost 4 dead Jaegers to one dead Hackapell. You can bump and run with your 4 speed again, kill one more Hackapell and lose 3 more Jaegers, repeat this process untill all of your 1200 coin in recources is now wasted.

Yes, I know what I typed. You're missing the point.

7 hackapells will create lag for themselves as they try to run around the jaegers and attack whatever you clicked on. It takes more micro to micro 3 hackapells on one jaeger and 4 on another than it takes for me to tell all my jaegers to fire at one of your hackapells. In 2 volleys, 2 hackapells are dead, so your "cycle" damage is invalid. Also, the "cycle" nearly never hits 800 damage on the jaegers, beause ppl don't know how to micro and send all 7 hackapells to attack one jaeger, therefore overkilling with more than double the damage needed. You can't possibly kill 3 jaegers at once with hackapells. You're dealing with 6, not 7, since one will die as its running in.

Strong Man
Skirmisher
posted 03-18-06 03:04 PM EDT (US)     46 / 99       
you guys go back to "dragoons + muskets > halberdier + skirmisher?" type of arguements

Highlander vs common units is the same as or better than equal number of imperial muskets vs various units. I'm comparing same type of units.

If your strategy needs musket type units (comboing with whatever you think is good), highlanders are a better alternative (call them at 18X pop to free pop slots for units). Jaegers can't be better than highlanders in this case even if they are better in ALL other cases because you are not looking for them!

and two merc vs two merc means players don't train a single common unit? all germany vs spanish games?

ub3r
Skirmisher
posted 03-18-06 03:33 PM EDT (US)     47 / 99       
Dont have much to say do you mist? All you did is agree w ultimitsu to bail yourself out of an invalid statement. You act as though Hackapell has a speed disadvantage vs Jaeger and they have to catch up to them or something, even if you killed one with a single volley from all your Jaegers, after that you aint gonna have the space or speed to bump and run. As soon as you click to move your jaegers back, the Hackapell gonna catch up and hit them 1 or 2 times before you stop and set to fire again.

If you can micro all your jaegers to shoot 1 Hackapell why cant i micro 2 Hackapells on a Jaeger, which means 1 hit from 2 Hackapell on 1 Jaeger is a dead Jaeger, times this by 3 thats 3 dead jaegers in 1 cycle, which reflects what i said before. Besides i dont even think one volley from 11 Jaegers would kill one Hackapell due to thier 30% range resist. I bet i dont even have to micro the Hackapells besides catch up to you if you try to bump and run, i bet the 7 Hacka's would kill 11 Jaegers unmicroed.

All of your Jaegers would be dead with still 3 or 4 Hackapells left to boot. Get over it man your wrong.

Anyways to get back to the subject! I like peoples thoughts, alot of people seem to agree that the Highlander is a highly respected Merc. Highlander and Cannon is a badass combo.


"Were surrounded.........this simplifies things." - Chesty Puller USMC 1950

"Let your plans be dark and as impenatrable as night, and when you move, fall like a lightning-bolt." - Sun Tzu

[This message has been edited by ub3r (edited 03-18-2006 @ 03:39 PM).]

Mark_Aurel
Skirmisher
posted 03-18-06 04:18 PM EDT (US)     48 / 99       
Jesus F. Christ. Highlanders meleeing Black Riders? That'll be the day.

And, yes, Hackapells have a nasty tendency to die rather quickly. You need to consider that lots of in-game variables aren't very favorable to them -- terrain disrupts their pathfinding, which is more of a hindrance to them than to ranged units, they die very, very quickly to building fire, and they get slowed down a bit when fired on, making them close in somewhat slower than their base speed would indicate. It's all those in-game factors that practical experience will show you makes the use of Hackapells pretty situational.

Much like Highlanders, Hackapells effectively got a sort of boost out of the skirm speed nerf. However, the more durable cav mercs benefit even more from that.


<Witty signature goes here.>
George_III
Skirmisher
posted 03-18-06 04:20 PM EDT (US)     49 / 99       
Is it true Black Watch (British church) upgrades highlanders?
Mark_Aurel
Skirmisher
posted 03-18-06 04:21 PM EDT (US)     50 / 99       
It just changes their name. There's no stat upgrade.

<Witty signature goes here.>
« Previous Page  1 2 3 4  Next Page »
You must be logged in to post messages.
Please login or register

Hop to:    

Age of Empires III Heaven | HeavenGames