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Age of Empires III Heaven » Forums » General Discussions » Is the Highlander the new heavyweight of Mercs since 1.05?
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Topic Subject:Is the Highlander the new heavyweight of Mercs since 1.05?
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ub3r
Skirmisher
posted 03-17-06 01:41 PM EDT (US)         
Ive always liked the Highlander, even before .05. They have monster ranged attack with even better results when meleeing cavalry. They have good hitpoints also. Im not sure what thier resist is tho.

Anyways i wanted to have a healthy discussion on how the Highlander weighs out amoung the competition. Highlanders kill Black Riders ranged or melee, they are just slower so they can get bumped. Jaeger owns Highlander, but are slower since .05, is the Jaeger still better than Highlander?

I like sending the 2 cannon shipment, then sending Highlanders to defend cannons. I can usually have 11 Highlanders, 2 falconets and 10 pikemen at about 8:20.

Highlander is better than Swiss Pikemen, Stradiot, Mameluke, Ronin, Hackapell, Corsair, and Manchu. The only Mercs that give them any type of problem would be BR and Jaeger, what do you guys think?

EDIT: Highlanders owned in real life. They were some bad ass scotts, highly respected by the Royal Army, and other European countries alike.


"Were surrounded.........this simplifies things." - Chesty Puller USMC 1950

"Let your plans be dark and as impenatrable as night, and when you move, fall like a lightning-bolt." - Sun Tzu

[This message has been edited by ub3r (edited 03-17-2006 @ 01:43 PM).]

AuthorReplies:
George_III
Skirmisher
posted 03-18-06 04:52 PM EDT (US)     51 / 99       
Hummm... but their are far cooler when they are Black Watch !

[This message has been edited by George_III (edited 03-18-2006 @ 04:53 PM).]

ub3r
Skirmisher
posted 03-18-06 05:32 PM EDT (US)     52 / 99       
Yes in game varaibles can also change the outcome of the effectiveness of the Jaeger also. I dont care what any of you say, Hackapells will kill Jaegers almost every time. You gotta completely neglect your Hackapells to let them die to Jaegers, bottom line.

Defending a claim that Jaegers effectively kill Hackapells with half of them left, is like saying 11 Skirms would kill 7 Hussars, with 5 or 6 skirms left over. It wouldnt happen no matter how much you microed, with equal skill players on each side of the situation with similar micro skills the Hackapell will win that situation every time.

I dont know why the argument is starting to be based on Hackapells when Highlander is the issue. Concerning the Highlander and Black Rider issue. Highlanders only do 2 more damage in melee mode vs Black Rider, so it would be the smart thing to utilize the Highlanders range. However we already went over this, and the Black Rider wins in this situation 9 times out of ten.

The point here is the Highlander used to be your 3rd 4th or even 5th choice as to what Merc you would send. Now the Highlander is possibly the 1st or 2nd Merc you would send, since 1.05.


"Were surrounded.........this simplifies things." - Chesty Puller USMC 1950

"Let your plans be dark and as impenatrable as night, and when you move, fall like a lightning-bolt." - Sun Tzu
Mark_Aurel
Skirmisher
posted 03-18-06 05:59 PM EDT (US)     53 / 99       

Quote:

Yes in game varaibles can also change the outcome of the effectiveness of the Jaeger also. I dont care what any of you say, Hackapells will kill Jaegers almost every time. You gotta completely neglect your Hackapells to let them die to Jaegers, bottom line.

Yes. But what the topic in that specific about was whether Hackapells were better against Jaegers than Stradiots when countering Jaegers/Black Riders with Highlander/Cav merc. And in that scenario, stradiots are superior because they don't die quite as quickly as Hackapells do, move faster, and still own Jaegers.

Most of the game variables that make Hackapells suck affects Stradiots less because Stradiots can take more shots.


<Witty signature goes here.>
ub3r
Skirmisher
posted 03-18-06 07:31 PM EDT (US)     54 / 99       
Stradiots do move faster, and is a viable alternitive to the Hackapell in this situation. However the Stradiot has less than 50% more Health than a Hackapell, while the Hackapell has 75% more hand damage. A Stradiot would have to hit the Jaeger 5 times before they die, yet die by only 2 volleys of Jaeger shots.

One Hackapell would also take 2 volleys of 11 Jaeger shots before they die, while only taking basically 2 swings to kill one Jaeger. The only reason i mentioned the Hackapell in this situation is because they can kill faster than a Stradiot, it takes almost 3 Stradiots to deal the same damage as one Hackapell.

Your argument Mark, is more believable than Jaegers outright beating Hackapells hands down.


"Were surrounded.........this simplifies things." - Chesty Puller USMC 1950

"Let your plans be dark and as impenatrable as night, and when you move, fall like a lightning-bolt." - Sun Tzu

[This message has been edited by ub3r (edited 03-18-2006 @ 07:35 PM).]

LO12DS_Mist
Skirmisher
posted 03-18-06 08:28 PM EDT (US)     55 / 99       

Quote:

Stradiots do move faster, and is a viable alternitive to the Hackapell in this situation. However the Stradiot has less than 50% more Health than a Hackapell, while the Hackapell has 75% more hand damage. A Stradiot would have to hit the Jaeger 5 times before they die, yet die by only 2 volleys of Jaeger shots.

Thats wrong. Stradiots have almost double the hitpoints of a hackapell, not around 50% more. 50% more would mean 295 + 148 = 443, but stradiots have 585 hp, which is 5 less than double that of a hackapell. Same amount of ranged resistance.

A hackapell has 295 hp. A hussar has 290. The only major difference is attack, which is 121 for a hackapell. Jaegers have 250 hp, meaning 3 hits from a hackapell to kill a jaeger, not 2. 2 hits would deal 242 hp, therefore the jaeger would be left with 8 hp. Therefore, I was correct in saying 3 hackapells to a jaeger.

Each jaeger deals 27 damage a shot. Combined, that is 297 damage with a single volley, however that has to be reduced by 30% because of the ranged resistance hackapells have. 11 jaegers deal 208 damage to a hackapell in one volley.. In order to avoid overkill, one would have to micro all jaegers to attack a hackapell, then tell 5 to attack a second after shooting once. That probably won't happen, however.

Quote:

Most of the game variables that make Hackapells suck affects Stradiots less because Stradiots can take more shots.

Yup. Stradiots will be more versatile if there are mixed units with the jaegers, which, most definitely, there will be. Stradiots will be better if the jaegers are behind a physical obstacle like a cliff.

Quote:

Defending a claim that Jaegers effectively kill Hackapells with half of them left, is like saying 11 Skirms would kill 7 Hussars, with 5 or 6 skirms left over. It wouldnt happen no matter how much you microed, with equal skill players on each side of the situation with similar micro skills the Hackapell will win that situation every time.

Please quote the sentence in which I stated 11 jaegers will kill 7 hackapells with half of them left. It might be easier for you if you knew how to read.

Quote:

I dont know why the argument is starting to be based on Hackapells when Highlander is the issue. Concerning the Highlander and Black Rider issue. Highlanders only do 2 more damage in melee mode vs Black Rider, so it would be the smart thing to utilize the Highlanders range. However we already went over this, and the Black Rider wins in this situation 9 times out of ten.

You claimed highlanders are better than jaegers, and then it branched off into hackapells+highlanders owns BRs+jaegers. The reason hackapells were dragged in:

Quote:

The only Mercs that give them any type of problem would be BR and Jaeger, what do you guys think?

Its not really fair to say jaegers+BRs own highlanders, which is why hackapells were dragged in.

Quote:

Stradiots do move faster, and is a viable alternitive to the Hackapell in this situation. However the Stradiot has less than 50% more Health than a Hackapell, while the Hackapell has 75% more hand damage. A Stradiot would have to hit the Jaeger 5 times before they die, yet die by only 2 volleys of Jaeger shots.

One Hackapell would also take 2 volleys of 11 Jaeger shots before they die, while only taking basically 2 swings to kill one Jaeger.


I don't know where you got this claim from. I doubt you even looked at a unit chart before rambling.
Hackapell takes 2 volleys from 11 jaegers to die.

Stradiot takes 3 volleys from 11 jaegers to die.

Stradiot has double the hitpoints of a hackapell. A hackapell has double the attack.

Quote:

I dont know why the argument is starting to be based on Hackapells when Highlander is the issue. Concerning the Highlander and Black Rider issue. Highlanders only do 2 more damage in melee mode vs Black Rider, so it would be the smart thing to utilize the Highlanders range. However we already went over this, and the Black Rider wins in this situation 9 times out of ten.

Its easy to conclude from this that jaeger+BR win against highlanders+hackapells if BRs beat both hackapells and highlanders. With help from jaegers, its just easier right? Right.

Quote:

Thats true but you gotta look at the flip side. He is gonna get happy when he see Hackapell and go for the kill with Riders, while he is doing that Highlanders can melee BR down. Although i think the Hackapells would die before the BR's, they still would have done significant damage to the Jaegers considering 121 dmg a whack with 7 of them.

These hypothetical situations can be argued till no reason.

Then try it in the editor.

OpenAmp
Banned
posted 03-18-06 08:52 PM EDT (US)     56 / 99       
why on earth would you want to try and get BRs into melee mode when highlander hand attack vs cav is only one more than ranged? ranged = 63 hand 32 X 2 for cav. even if the fight gets rowdy the BRs can still run. and unless BR range is greater than 12 the highlanders will pop off a couple shots at em.

i would think to charge with hacks and flank with highlanders, to pick off BRs from the sides. unless BR's march in front of jaegers... then i dunno.

ZAKtheGeek
Skirmisher
posted 03-18-06 09:08 PM EDT (US)     57 / 99       
Good points. BR's and highlanders have the same range. Just fire away, why bother with melee?

I am herpes.

Pyro Icon
11337
ultimitsu
Skirmisher
posted 03-18-06 09:42 PM EDT (US)     58 / 99       
during melee, highlander does not do 1 more point of damage but 2 x dmg, because ROF of melee is 1.5, shooting is 3.0

however i would still say VS BR it is better to stay in ranged, unless BR is closing in to kill falcs.

ub3r
Skirmisher
posted 03-18-06 11:35 PM EDT (US)     59 / 99       
Mist - "Thats wrong. Stradiots have almost double the hitpoints of a hackapell, not around 50% more. 50% more would mean 295 + 148 = 443, but stradiots have 585 hp, which is 5 less than double that of a hackapell. Same amount of ranged resistance"

You and every1 else knew what i meant. Dont try to warp the picture pointing out obscure errors, where you know what i really meant. I know how much health a Hackapell and Stradiot have.

You are only now mentioning thier resistance because i mentioned it. If you look back at your post, you were saying Jaegers effectively wipe the floor with Hackapells, now since you seen that you were blatantly wrong, your trying to make it seem like you knew all along.

Your like the guy that washes his hands before he pisses, your just backwards, like your hypocritical comments that make little sense. Ultimitsu shed some light on that fact previously.

I am making my comments based on things that i have done in the game.. not half a page post based on a bunch of on paper speculation based on stats and your cool poster ego.

No one ever admits thier wrong, Ultimitsu just pointed out that Highlanders do twice the damage in melee due to ROF which no 1 really pointed out. Therefor Highlanders ARE effective in melee against BR and ranged, which adds more acclaim to thier overall usefullness in all situations.


"Were surrounded.........this simplifies things." - Chesty Puller USMC 1950

"Let your plans be dark and as impenatrable as night, and when you move, fall like a lightning-bolt." - Sun Tzu
The Bob
Skirmisher
posted 03-19-06 00:56 AM EDT (US)     60 / 99       
by the time the hackas actually get into melee range against the jaegers 1 hacka is dead and another is on roughly half health - with jaegers a split second away from killing it

so thats 2 down by the time theyre actually in range also ignoring the fact that riders would kill another one

so that leaves 12 jaegers and 8 riders vs. 4 hackas and 11 landers

3 seconds later another 2-3 hackas are dead along with say 1 -2 jaegers and 1 black rider

guess who will win from here

ub3r
Skirmisher
posted 03-19-06 02:06 AM EDT (US)     61 / 99       
Not really. Hackapell's speed close in on Jaeger quick, quick enough to only get hit by 2 cycles of shots meaning thats only 1 dead Hackapell, but when they get there, they are killing at least 3 with one cycle.

After that you cant run anymore. Jaegers lose to Hackapell no matter what. You can mix in other units which might change the outcome slightly, but Jaeger vs Hackapell, the horse wins.


"Were surrounded.........this simplifies things." - Chesty Puller USMC 1950

"Let your plans be dark and as impenatrable as night, and when you move, fall like a lightning-bolt." - Sun Tzu
The Bob
Skirmisher
posted 03-19-06 03:13 AM EDT (US)     62 / 99       
depends on the micro as far as things go

if you target each hacka to kill a diff jaeger then the jaegers are basically screwed but that takes a hell of a lot of micro in a proper combat situation and almost nobody could do it

if you tell hackas to charge as you most probably would then jaegers will probably win but cop a LOT of damage

Earl Samsca
Skirmisher
posted 03-19-06 07:53 AM EDT (US)     63 / 99       
In terms of pure Hackapells vs Jaegers, the Hackapells will win. Possibly losing about three to four. One on the way in, one in the confused mass as the Hackapells croud their target, and then possibly one or two more as the Hackapells cut the Jaegers to peices.

Unless you can break up the Hackapell charge due to the Jaegers being in a group of buildings/forest etc in which case the Jaegers likely win, or reduce the Hackapells to only 1-2 units.

LO12DS_Mist
Skirmisher
posted 03-19-06 10:41 AM EDT (US)     64 / 99       

Quote:

Mist - "Thats wrong. Stradiots have almost double the hitpoints of a hackapell, not around 50% more. 50% more would mean 295 + 148 = 443, but stradiots have 585 hp, which is 5 less than double that of a hackapell. Same amount of ranged resistance"

You and every1 else knew what i meant. Dont try to warp the picture pointing out obscure errors, where you know what i really meant. I know how much health a Hackapell and Stradiot have.

You are only now mentioning thier resistance because i mentioned it. If you look back at your post, you were saying Jaegers effectively wipe the floor with Hackapells, now since you seen that you were blatantly wrong, your trying to make it seem like you knew all along.

Your like the guy that washes his hands before he pisses, your just backwards, like your hypocritical comments that make little sense. Ultimitsu shed some light on that fact previously.

I am making my comments based on things that i have done in the game.. not half a page post based on a bunch of on paper speculation based on stats and your cool poster ego.

No one ever admits thier wrong, Ultimitsu just pointed out that Highlanders do twice the damage in melee due to ROF which no 1 really pointed out. Therefor Highlanders ARE effective in melee against BR and ranged, which adds more acclaim to thier overall usefullness in all situations.

Then try using highlanders and hackapells vs BRs and jaegers and see who wins. Get a friend or something, and play a game, then both of you send both merc sets and try it out. BRs+jaegers win 90% of the time.

Not all of this stuff I say is from paper. I do play. I have seen it happen before.

[This message has been edited by LO12DS_Mist (edited 03-19-2006 @ 10:42 AM).]

fryBASS
Skirmisher
(id: LO12DS_Frylock)
posted 03-19-06 11:14 AM EDT (US)     65 / 99       
who said that hackapelles and highlanders will win vs br's and jaegers? whoever they are, they are a dumbass

Check out my YouTube Page!
ESO - LO12DS_Fry
ub3r
Skirmisher
posted 03-19-06 12:24 PM EDT (US)     66 / 99       
Not reeally Frylock.

Like i said a million times hypothetical situations liek these can never really be solved unless you go in the game and try it a couple times.

Mist you WERE saying Jaegers killed Hackapells STRAIGHT UP, w/o BR's or Highlanders involved, you were wrong, its over.

However the Highlander Hacka vs Jaeger BR is a totally different situation. Jaeger and BR are possibly the best mercs in the game, its a formidable team, one of the best combos in the game, they SHOULD win 90% of the time.

I think it would be closer to 60% of the time tho. Depending on who was on the offensive in that situation, it could go either way. If the BR's and Jaegers were on the offensive, trying to bring the fight to my base, then i have the option of falling back and fighting the fight where i want. That means the BR has to come to me to start the situation, weather it be killing soem of my villies or trying to kill some of my units.

That means the Riders are going to have to engage the Highlanders and Hackas. What i would do, is have Highlanders shoot BR's and flank Hackas to try to get Jaegers. If BR engage w Hacka's ima send Highlander to melee BR. Like i said this is a hypothetical situation but you cant just dismiss the possibility of the Highlander/Hacka winning in this situation.

EDIT: I actually just tested the Hackapell vs Jaeger situation. Hackapells won with SIX Hackapells left with NO micro. WITH micro, (focus firing w Jaegers) Hackapells still won, with only 3 left over.


"Were surrounded.........this simplifies things." - Chesty Puller USMC 1950

"Let your plans be dark and as impenatrable as night, and when you move, fall like a lightning-bolt." - Sun Tzu

[This message has been edited by ub3r (edited 03-19-2006 @ 12:27 PM).]

Tigger_Bounce
Skirmisher
posted 03-19-06 12:43 PM EDT (US)     67 / 99       
if you micro i seriously think that black riders are OP but that is just my opinion

Eso Name For AoeIII: GL_Chewy 2nd Lt. for now...PR 21
I play TWC
ub3r
Skirmisher
posted 03-19-06 02:46 PM EDT (US)     68 / 99       
I would have to agree.

There is no real counter for a Black Rider. Lets look at the options you have to defend yourself from the guys in black.

Pikemen/Halbrieders : They are very effective against all cavarly, but is a joke when trying to kill a BR because thier lack of speed.

Dragoons/Ruyter/Horse Archer : Will lose everytime because the BR is the same thing, but superior.

Muskateer : Nope

Artillery : Nah

Highlander =D Here is probably your best option out of everything i just mentioned. I really dont see anything else doing better besides a War Wagon. Swiss Pikemen are effective, but again die becuase of speed.


"Were surrounded.........this simplifies things." - Chesty Puller USMC 1950

"Let your plans be dark and as impenatrable as night, and when you move, fall like a lightning-bolt." - Sun Tzu
LO12DS_Mist
Skirmisher
posted 03-19-06 03:44 PM EDT (US)     69 / 99       

Quote:

Not reeally Frylock.

Like i said a million times hypothetical situations liek these can never really be solved unless you go in the game and try it a couple times.

Mist you WERE saying Jaegers killed Hackapells STRAIGHT UP, w/o BR's or Highlanders involved, you were wrong, its over.

EDIT: I actually just tested the Hackapell vs Jaeger situation. Hackapells won with SIX Hackapells left with NO micro. WITH micro, (focus firing w Jaegers) Hackapells still won, with only 3 left over.

I'm still waiting on the quote. Find the quote in which I said jaegers win with half of them left. Come on, I challenge you. Yeah. Right.

Fry's right, BTW.

Quote:

However the Highlander Hacka vs Jaeger BR is a totally different situation. Jaeger and BR are possibly the best mercs in the game, its a formidable team, one of the best combos in the game, they SHOULD win 90% of the time.

Then don't claim highlanders and hackapells will win against jaegers and BRs. Your speculation is as good as useless.

Quote:

That means the Riders are going to have to engage the Highlanders and Hackas. What i would do, is have Highlanders shoot BR's and flank Hackas to try to get Jaegers. If BR engage w Hacka's ima send Highlander to melee BR. Like i said this is a hypothetical situation but you cant just dismiss the possibility of the Highlander/Hacka winning in this situation.

Yes, I can dismiss the possibility. Why? Because you make it seem as if you're doing all the microing and I'm sitting there waiting for you to kill my jaegers and BRs.

Ender_Ward
Skirmisher
posted 03-19-06 03:52 PM EDT (US)     70 / 99       
Hehe

Forget Highlanders + [insert cavalry Merc unit] vs Black Riders + Jaegers.

Why give Black Riders easy targets?

11 Highlanders + 2 Falconets > Black Riders + Jaegers. If you got decent micro with the cannons.

Remember, Germans don't get the 2 Falconet shipment in Fortress. British/Spanish/Russians do. Germans have to make their Falconets/Culverins. These civs don't.
Jaegers + Black Riders is also 2 sets of Mercs (2400 gold), while you are using only one set (1200 gold). Use the gold you didn't spend on more Falconets ('cause the German may come with Lansknecht instead of Black Riders).

11 Highlanders + 4 Falconets is gonna be very hard for the German merc user to overcome. Not even including Lancers, Pikes, Rodeleros and Hussars. Which is why Spain > Germany right now.


"One wants to be loved, failing that admired, failing that feared, failing that hated and despised. One wants to instill in other people some form of emotion. The soul shudders before emptiness and wants contact, no matter the cost."
ub3r
Skirmisher
posted 03-19-06 03:59 PM EDT (US)     71 / 99       
Mist - "12-15 skirms would kill 7 hackapells"

That can pretty much some up everything i said concerning how off the mark your mindless comments concerning Hackapells and Jaegers/skirms.

Mist - "Then don't claim highlanders and hackapells will win against jaegers and BRs. Your speculation is as good as useless"

Your speculation is ALWAYS useless. BR and Jaeger are two of the best mercs like i said before. The ONLY reason Hackapells - Highlander vs Jaeger - BR was brought up was because Ender mentioned Highlander Stradiot > BR Jaeger. So all i did was replace the Stradiot with a Hackapell which would garner similar results, but maybe even better results becuz Hackapell has MORE than double the attack, but less than Half the health.

EDIT: WHat Ender just mentioned is what i had said in the beginign of this post. Highlander + Falconet is a combo that i like and use often. Like Ender said that would prolly be even better than Highlander Hackapell/Stradiot.


"Were surrounded.........this simplifies things." - Chesty Puller USMC 1950

"Let your plans be dark and as impenatrable as night, and when you move, fall like a lightning-bolt." - Sun Tzu

[This message has been edited by ub3r (edited 03-19-2006 @ 04:01 PM).]

Pagasaeus
Skirmisher
posted 03-19-06 04:00 PM EDT (US)     72 / 99       
11 Barbary Corsairs + 5 Mameluks can pwn Jaegers + Black Riders if the situation is right.

Barbary Corsairs themselves own Jaegers since they have 6 speed. Jaegers cannot hit and run very well against Corsairs.

Mamelukes wtfpwn Jaegers, pretty self-expanatory.

Contrary to what you might expect, Black Riders can't kill a Mameluk in one volley. Once the melee closes in against the Jaegers, the Black Riders will be forced to flee or be torn apart by Corsairs.

If the Mameluks and Corsairs attack from both sides. It's all over for the Jaegers and Black Riders.

Ender_Ward
Skirmisher
posted 03-19-06 04:12 PM EDT (US)     73 / 99       
Pagasaeus, boy are you right.

Last night, I killed 10 Black Riders and about 5 Uhlans, with 11 Barbary Corairs, but before they died, the German player got his 12 Jaegers and finished off the Corsairs before my 2 Falconets and 5 Abus Guns could get there.
I only had about 9 Corsairs left and they were pretty damaged, so the 3 remaining Black Riders and 12 Jaegers killed them.

By the time my 2 Falconets and 5 Abus Guns arrived on the field, he had a single damaged Black Rider left and all 12 surviving Jaegers. With alittle bit of micro, they all perished. I had both Cannons and 2 Abus Guns remaining.

Ofcourse I made some truly idiotic mistakes later on and ended up losing the game (it lasted for over 35 minutes), but it shows that Black Riders + Jaegers are far from uncounterable.
Just 2 Falconets murder 12 Jaegers if he has no Culverins, Falconets of his own or melee Cavalry to throw at 'em. Indeed, I fear Jaegers + Landsknecht alot more.



"One wants to be loved, failing that admired, failing that feared, failing that hated and despised. One wants to instill in other people some form of emotion. The soul shudders before emptiness and wants contact, no matter the cost."
ub3r
Skirmisher
posted 03-19-06 04:16 PM EDT (US)     74 / 99       
Its so funny how the popular opinion on units changes. They go out of style like clothes it seems. Not to long ago Barbary Corsiars were laughable and a waste of recources, and the Landskenct was just inferior and almost obsolete.

"Were surrounded.........this simplifies things." - Chesty Puller USMC 1950

"Let your plans be dark and as impenatrable as night, and when you move, fall like a lightning-bolt." - Sun Tzu
antisocialmunky
Skirmisher
posted 03-19-06 04:30 PM EDT (US)     75 / 99       
I don't think that's a good comparison... it's a patch not clothing style.
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